Interesting take on vehicle modification

[Alloy]

Actually, many are claiming that the weight sticker is holy writ (or "the law")... and that if you are over what it says, then you are overloaded and dangerous. Since you cannot get the weight sticker changed no matter what, any mods you do to improve handling and load carrying are irrelevant.

Weight sticker can be changed here in BC Canada. I've done it.

 

[ThundahBeagle]

Actually, many are claiming that the weight sticker is holy writ (or "the law")... and that if you are over what it says, then you are overloaded and dangerous. Since you cannot get the weight sticker changed no matter what, any mods you do to improve handling and load carrying are irrelevant.

That may very well be. So, of that is the case, the OP's original article by Wes Siler is all the more relevant.

 

[JaSAn]

There are at least 50 different insurance commissioners with different rules and procedures. What is true in one state might not be in another. I can only talk about Minnesota.

I drove wrecker (small boom/sling) weekends while in college. Our company was bonded with state and county so we got all the accidents with injury/death. In those cases we weighed the vehicles when requested by the officer in charge. The vehicles were impounded until the state and both insurance companies released them.

. . .
But DRAX was talking about the weight sticker. A 1/2 ton truck with a 3k lb load will do *less* damage in a collision than a 1 ton with a 3k load, because the truck weighs less. Assuming that the driver has made appropriate modifications to the suspension and tires (like any sensible person would do), it may also handle and brake better. Where is the rationale for greater liability? A claim that violating the sticker is an inherent safety issue is pure fantasy.

In my time of driving I had to declare under oath that I followed procedure and got the weight that was recorded on the accident report. So I got to read a number of those reports and I got to talk to a number of peace officers while standing around at the accident scene. What I learned:
- insurance companies only care about money and will take the least expensive option. They weight cost of fighting vs.cost of settlement.
- GVWR/GAWR/GCWR are the figures of merit used in the courts.
- You cannot change that number and it is expensive to convince the court otherwise.
- Unless you are criminally charged or are liable beyond your policy limits, you will not be there to argue your case.
- Some terms I saw in state accident reports: 'modified suspension', 'oversize tires', 'ride height/bumper height above stock'. I don't know what insurance companies do with that data, but my guess is that they aren't going to dig very deep unless there is a good chance of pinning a very expensive tail on the other companies donkey.

 

[rruff]

Weight sticker can be changed here in BC Canada. I've done it.

Probably because it's considered the law up there. Or at least I've heard of people being ticketed. This is true in Australia also, but at least they aren't stuck with US spec; their little trucks have a much higher rating to start with.

...they aren't going to dig very deep unless there is a good chance of pinning a very expensive tail on the other companies donkey.

The other donkey would be the manufacturer... great targets for lawyers! Manufacturers are the ones who spec the GVWR, to limit their liability and warranty. If you mod your vehicle that makes it tougher or impossible to blame them.

 

[jadmt]

I am guessing this will be a pretty popular mod when we get too many regulations.

 

[utherjorge]

This is getting ridiculous.

An accident is "investigated" by responding officers or in the case of serious injury or death a state trooper. You will simply be deemed at fault or not in a report that will go to the insurance companies that request the report for claims filed. It's very black and white. Nobody is going to be doled out differing degrees of responsibility. Thats just silly. You may or may not be cited for equipment violations if anything is glaringly obvious but I've never seen anyone fine tooth comb vehicles before they are loaded on a wrecker and taken to the body shop before repair or salvage.

This is untrue. Saw this myself in the accident that killed my daughter. They absolutely fine-toothed it AFTER it was in the wrecker and sitting in a yard. Both vehicles were side by side as they waited for whatever they were going to do with them after.

Additionally, since I'm not dumb, it could very well have been because the authorities were making the determination whether to charge the other driver with some sort of crime due to the loss of my daughter. As it was NY, and in 2003, the loss of a fetus was not deemed the same as the loss of a child/adult, and no such charge was a result.

The situation was very much tied to abortion law at the time and whether an eight-month fetus was officially a human or not. The answer was no. She was delivered immediately after the accident and did not survive the night.

As I stated previously, the other car was in fine mechanical condition aside from corrosion and a needed oil change. No charge was filed... but insurance did pay out.

 

[jbaucom]

An accident is "investigated" by responding officers or in the case of serious injury or death a state trooper. You will simply be deemed at fault or not in a report that will go to the insurance companies that request the report for claims filed. It's very black and white. Nobody is going to be doled out differing degrees of responsibility.

Insurance companies in most states absolutely do dole out differing degrees of responsibility; it's called comparative negligence. The legal and civil rules vary from state-to-state, so I can only refer to how I know that it works here in SC. Law enforcement can deem that one party contributed to the collision and can also deem that the other party did not contribute to the collision, but yet the insurance company of the at-fault party, through their investigation, can assign a degree of comparative negligence to the not-at-fault party because allegedly their actions contributed to excessive damages. Depending on the severity of the accident, injuries, and property damage, they may or may not go over the vehicles with a fine-tooth comb, but if there is anything obvious that jumps out at the adjuster based on interviews or pictures of the vehicles that invites scrutiny, you can bet they'll look into it to see if they can shift any of the financial liability to the other party.

 

[pith helmet]

This is untrue. Saw this myself in the accident that killed my daughter. They absolutely fine-toothed it AFTER it was in the wrecker and sitting in a yard. Both vehicles were side by side as they waited for whatever they were going to do with them after.

Additionally, since I'm not dumb, it could very well have been because the authorities were making the determination whether to charge the other driver with some sort of crime due to the loss of my daughter. As it was NY, and in 2003, the loss of a fetus was not deemed the same as the loss of a child/adult, and no such charge was a result.

The situation was very much tied to abortion law at the time and whether an eight-month fetus was officially a human or not. The answer was no. She was delivered immediately after the accident and did not survive the night.

As I stated previously, the other car was in fine mechanical condition aside from corrosion and a needed oil change. No charge was filed... but insurance did pay out.

awful, man. for what it’s worth from a stranger online, my condolences. there is an entire other conversation there that would blow up the forum for sure.

 

[ThundahBeagle]

If your vehicle fails or falls apart, causing an accident, aren't you 100% liable regardless? Unless of course you can pin the blame on a mechanic's error. You are also liable if you cause an accident for failure to stop or some other driving lapse. The assertion by many is that since you violated the holy writ, you have also committed a mortal sin, and will be damned to the pits of hell! No excuses! No one cares about the actual capability of the vehicle, only the Word (or Number in this case).

Can you be 200% liable?

Sure. you are liable if your car falls apart because you are responsible for proper maintenance. So, if your brake caliper comes loose and jams up your wheel, causing a crash, but you can prove you just had that brake work done at an ASE certified mechanic, then you have to present that proof and it gets pinned on the mechanic.

 

[JaSAn]

Weight sticker can be changed here in BC Canada. I've done it.

Interesting.
What hoops do you have to go through to change your own weight sticker?

 

[ThundahBeagle]

Interesting.
What hoops do you have to go through to change your own weight sticker?

I believe one must be a Certified Coach Builder, or take your vehicle to one.

 

[Alloy]

Interesting.
What hoops do you have to go through to change your own weight sticker?

Have it engineered, change the undercarriage, have it inspected then re-register it at the higher GVWR.

 

[RoyJ]

Lots of laws, rules, policies, theories being quote. Anyone has links to actual court cases (party A vs party B) where someone with a modded vehicle was found criminally responsible and / or total denial of insurance claim?

It takes a lot of court work, including hiring "expert witnesses", to prove a vehicle's modification is the contributing cause, to the point where an OEM vehicle could've entirely avoided the situation. In a criminal case, you'd have to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt, which is very difficult.

Hypothetical case: say you swerved to avoid a deer in a modified Jeep / LC / F350, rolled, and slid into traffic causing bodily harm. They can't just say "you were modded, thus it was the sole contributing factor". Remember, the defense would also have their lawyers, and expert witnesses if needed. All defense has to prove is: a stock F350, loaded to OEM GVWR, with a high center of gravity, would've also rolled. There's no law against load COG @ legal GVW.

Sure, you'd be at fault no matter what, but to deny your insurance or hold you criminally liable solely due to modifications, would require a LOT of work. Maybe if Bezos or Musk was killed, it would be warranted, but not something you see daily.

 

[ThundahBeagle]

Lots of laws, rules, policies, theories being quote. Anyone has links to actual court cases (party A vs party B) where someone with a modded vehicle was found criminally responsible and / or total denial of insurance claim?

It takes a lot of court work, including hiring "expert witnesses", to prove a vehicle's modification is the contributing cause, to the point where an OEM vehicle could've entirely avoided the situation. In a criminal case, you'd have to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt, which is very difficult.

Hypothetical case: say you swerved to avoid a deer in a modified Jeep / LC / F350, rolled, and slid into traffic causing bodily harm. They can't just say "you were modded, thus it was the sole contributing factor". Remember, the defense would also have their lawyers, and expert witnesses if needed. All defense has to prove is: a stock F350, loaded to OEM GVWR, with a high center of gravity, would've also rolled. There's no law against load COG @ legal GVW.

Sure, you'd be at fault no matter what, but to deny your insurance or hold you criminally liable solely due to modifications, would require a LOT of work. Maybe if Bezos or Musk was killed, it would be warranted, but not something you see daily.

I don't think anyone here says that you would be criminally responsible SOLELY based on the fact you are modded. But if your mods contributed to the cause or the damage, that's on you, especially they are beyond what the state allows.

Criminal charges are serious for sure but not the only thing to be concerned about. And civil cases do NOT require proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

Court and expert witnesses do cost money and time, that's true. Isurance companies have deep, deep pockets. Do you have pockets as deep as a national insurance company? I dont. But if you are found responsible for an accident where someone was killed, the you are the one on defense. And the police and opposite insurance company are coming after you.

Defense attorneys? Do you have any idea what they cost on an hourly basis? $100 an hour around here is very cheap. Try $500 an hour or more. Expert witnesses cost are additional. And you wont get out of it for a measly 10 hours worth. Nope. You'll be in it for months or years at maybe 10 hours per week. 20 grand just for a legal retainer in a superior court case.

Read my post about the uninsured snow plow, or the girl who didnt tell her insurance company she was using her car for work, for example. Those are real examples on a smaller scale

 

[JaSAn]

Lots of laws, rules, policies, theories being quote. Anyone has links to actual court cases (party A vs party B) where someone with a modded vehicle was found criminally responsible and / or total denial of insurance claim?

It takes a lot of court work, including hiring "expert witnesses", to prove a vehicle's modification is the contributing cause, to the point where an OEM vehicle could've entirely avoided the situation. In a criminal case, you'd have to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt, which is very difficult.

Sure, you'd be at fault no matter what, but to deny your insurance or hold you criminally liable solely due to modifications, would require a LOT of work. Maybe if Bezos or Musk was killed, it would be warranted, but not something you see daily.

Unless you have access to Westlaw, LexisNexis or other subscription law database AND know the terminology used to file case law it is almost impossible to find that data. The public NHTSA database is huge, slow, and unorganized.

Except for a criminal indictment these cases almost never go to court. Lawyers for insurance company A get together with lawyers for company B and determine fault. If the payout exceeds your policy limit you could be sued and it will be up to you to challenge the apportioning of fault.

In a criminal case you are fighting the county, state, or federal government = deep pockets. You will need "expert witnesses" to rebut their "expert witnesses". Money out of your pocket.

In Minnesota vehicle liability covers you for whatever damage you do to another's person and property up to the limits on your policy. This coverage cannot be denied.
For all other coverage (collision, comprehensive, etc.) your policy contains exclusions; best read and understand what voids coverage.