Jeep diesel discussion and the future.

[Krytos]

This is not a post about fuel efficiency. There, glad I got that out of the way.

The Commanche Diesel Swap and the article posted on the EXPO front page about diesel made from algae got me thinking.

Jeep seems dead set against releasing a diesel model until at least 2014 (a Grand Cherokee at that). Swapping in a diesel engine into your Jeep means much more than a torquey, more fuel efficient engine, it means future proofing your rig to a certain extent. While the idea of "peak oil" and other energy shortages might be exaggerated, the truth remains that the price of gasoline, while highly unstable, continues to trend upward. In fact, the price continues to rise here in the United States despite the U.S. taking over the #2 spot in oil production and possibly surpassing Saudi Arabia by 2020 (depending on what you consider "oil"). Also of note, we need to dig deeper and expend more effort to acquire the oil in question, as the easily accessed oil has been extracted already.

Biofuels help the situation, but the most common gasoline analog in the US, E85 Ethanol, leaves a lot to be desired. There has been some scientific progress at creating new gasoline analog using garbage and wastepaper eating bacteria to produce butanol (http://www.geek.com/articles/geek-c...ement-from-waste-paper-plant-matter-20110831/) but this science is in it's infancy and while promising, it's far from producing something we can stick in our tanks, today. So the

Am I freaking myself out for nothing? Is the gasoline engine and supply something we can rely on for a while? Or should we be exploring diesel engines (the 4BT, OM617, TDI, or the VM used in the Liberty Diesel) and their biodiesel fuels, which seem to be much more viable than their gasoline cousins?

 

[Gaucho919]

I agree with you on future-proofing your rig. I can't help but think about how all the work I do to these jeeps might be in vain. That is one of the reason I decided on the OM617 for this Comanche. I'm not gonna lie the main reason is that there is just an x-factor to diesel rigs. The torque, the sound, the fuel mileage, and simplicity fires me right up.

 

[Dan Grec]

I want a diesel Jeep for a whole range of reasons, but I think we have many, many years before gasoline shortages are a real problem.

It will just get more and more expensive, like it always has.

-Dan

 

[SouthPawXJ]

Just for clarity - an insider over at allpar (oh2o) stated that Jeep Grand Cherokee Diesel production is slated to begin in March 2013. It will be released as part of the 2014MY. So, sometime next year there will be Jeep diesels rolling off the lines and into American showrooms!

 

[reece146]

For the sake of an extra ~$1000 a year diesel seems like a lot of fuss. Financially it doesn't matter. If $1000 a year is an issue maybe you should investigate getting a bus pass because you can't afford a vehicle anyway. Sure, diesel has a certain caché but but be up front about what is drawing you to diesel like Gaucho above.

If there is no gas then you have bigger problems that diesel wont solve.

 

[jeepdreamer]

I disagree with you reece...Yes, if gas goes away or becomes SO expensive that it can't be afforded, then of course we all have bigger problems. But...Part of solving those problems is to find a way around them. A viable solution that will keep lights on, water flowing...all the little "conveniences" we enjoy as a modern society. And I find it sad that diesel has been so back burnered for just this kind of thing.
I'm running late but will come back to finish my diatribe..

 

[jeepdreamer]

Ok...A little more.
Everything our military operates on (broad brush with exceptions) is multi-fuel, generally diesel. Its that way for a reason. Over the road truckers are almost 100% diesel burning tractors. Farm equipment is too...
So why is that? Because diesel provides more usable power per gallon than its more expensive, harder to refine sibling gasoline. You may say "But diesel costs more than gas" if your in the states and that is true. But that fault lies with our own government since most of the cost of a gallon of diesel in the US is actually taxes!
You take a pair of gasoline powered cars, one from the 50s or 60s and the other brand spankin new. Give the old one modern, no lead gas and it will run but the valves sure won't like it for long. Take that shiny new eco box and try and run it on good old 85 octane leaded... won't like that at all! Yes, they will run for a bit but you'll have issues sooner than later.
Now take the earliest diesels... and one from just a couple years ago. Feed it diesel, bio, processed oil, transmission oil mix... whatever. Its not much different than dumping waste into your flux capacitor! Simple and rugged and dependable...that's diesel and that is also Jeep. And the fact that one could potentially manufacture their own fuel for very little... makes it a lot more SHTF friendly to me.

 

[1stDeuce]

Jeepdreamer, I don't know where you live, but I bought my first diesel truck in 2003, and about a month later, the price of diesel went from ~.25/gal cheaper than gas to ~.25/gal more expensive, and it's not been cheaper since. It still made sense at the time, because I was getting 19+ mpg out of my 3/4 ton GMC, and the little Sonoma that it replaced only got 17ish. Fast forward to today, and diesel is currently more like .50-.70/gallon more expensive around here. I'm still getting about 19mpg with the truck, but my Jeep gets about 16.5 on gas, and with the cost difference in fuel between the two being somewhat a wash, I tend to drive my jeep more because oil changes and long term maintenance cost less.

As I understand the refining process, you can't get more diesel out of a barrel of crude in exchange for less gasoline... The ratio is fixed, therefor the supply of diesel is linked directly to gas. I don't think you'll see gas exceed the price of diesel for quite some time, if ever, since diesel fuels the parts of our infrastructure that are not really trimmable, while people will find alternatives to gas vehicles if it gets too pricey, which keeps the price low. (Is that circular logic?)

I guess what I'm suggesting is that if you really want an alternative to gas, diesel doesn't make much sense at all anymore. It's expensive, and if gas gets hard to find, diesel will be harder (Excepting in the case of a ZA, at which point the gas in storage tanks will eventually go bad and diesel will remain usable for a decade or more...) You're not going to get 40mpg out of a brick by putting a diesel in it. My girlfriend's liberty manages about 25, and it's fairly aerodynamic in comparison to many vehicles. I doubt you'd do much better in terms of efficiency with a 40 year old engine design in a more boxy body... Even if you sacrifice HP for mileage, you're not likely to break 30 unless you never break 45mph, and even then, not by much.

How about looking into gas electric hybrid technology, similar to a Volt. The VIA Motors trucks that Bob Lutz is involved with are an outstanding concept. Or for a cheap alternative, Natural Gas!! We have NG fueling stations here in CO, with some of the highest NG prices around, at $2.50/gge. (Gas Gallon Equivalent) It's as low a $1 just north in Wyoming... have considered adding a NG conversion to my Jeep for cheap fuel to and from work, while allowing the ability to use normal gasoline if ng isn't available.

Just my .02.

 

[Krytos]

The US has some of the biggest (known) natural gas reserves in the world, that might be a viable alternative. A quick scan of the more common conversions shows that a 9.1 gallon tank will yield about 100-120 miles of range. (http://cngchat.com/forum/showthread.php?7621-Jeeprassic-new-to-CNG&p=46964#post46964). That doesn't sound too impressive until you factor in the price of CNG being less than a third of the price of regular pump gas. Filling a 9 gallon tank up for around 12 bucks has a pretty good ring to it.

My family has a CNG standby generator hooked up to the house for emergencies as we live in hurricane country, it might be nice to have a standard setup and load from the same tank if possible.

I've seen some Rover conversions done with CNG and they haven't lost any off road capability. The ability to go back and forth from gas and CNG is really appealing.

 

[X-plorenow]

The big problem is that diesel has been tracking at higher than gas prices.

Based on your concerns, alternative fuels and options are the way to think rather than diesel. But we are a ways away from that.

While still not as efficient, there are some interesting gasoline engines rolling off the line.

The new Pentastar is actually quite a nice engine. It is more efficient and provides better mpg's while providing better power and torque.

In the short term that is the way to go in my opinion.

 

[SSF556]

The other thing to keep in mind is that there is a real lack of dealer service support for anything diesel automotive in America....most automotive technicians are not trained on diesel engines. I know because I have a 2008 Jeep Grand Cherokee CRD and the I get a knot in my stomach thinking about a major issue that would involve the Jeep dealer. I have reached out to the local Mercedes dealer and there was a not a lot of enthusiasm for working on anything other than a Mercedes. Thankfully my career is based on diesel engines so I am somewhat comfortable with the operation, and I have people that I could reach out to.

The big advantage I have with my current setup is that the Mercedes OM642 3.0L V6 diesel is probably the most popular currently available small bore diesel engine in North America...all Mercedes cars/Suvs, and Sprinter van. The other being the 2.0L VW engine. It has taken years for even a DPF delete to show up for the OM642 engine in the Jeep.

I would be very skeptical of the VM diesel engine coming in the 2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee...no support at all in this country.

Lastly as a diesel owner the coolness keeps me with the CRD....it is unique and with the GDE ECO tune I am getting over 440 torque in a reliable and economical mid size SUV that has 4LO and a very capable 4wd system. Really the 2007-2008 Jeep Grand Cherokee was the last diesel in this country to fit the basic definition of a diesel equipped mid size SUV expedition type vehicle. Diesel engine, 4LO, electronic lockers, mid size, and decent aftermarket support.

 

[jeepdreamer]

Can you imagine that engine in a JK with a manual tranny? Yummy!

 

[Gaucho919]

I could imagine the Liberty diesel in my '92 MJ mated to my NV3550. I wouldn't complain about anything ever again

 

[jeepdreamer]

Jeepdreamer, I don't know where you live, but I bought my first diesel truck in 2003, and about a month later, the price of diesel went from ~.25/gal cheaper than gas to ~.25/gal more expensive, and it's not been cheaper since. It still made sense at the time, because I was getting 19+ mpg out of my 3/4 ton GMC, and the little Sonoma that it replaced only got 17ish. Fast forward to today, and diesel is currently more like .50-.70/gallon more expensive around here. I'm still getting about 19mpg with the truck, but my Jeep gets about 16.5 on gas, and with the cost difference in fuel between the two being somewhat a wash, I tend to drive my jeep more because oil changes and long term maintenance cost less.

As I understand the refining process, you can't get more diesel out of a barrel of crude in exchange for less gasoline... The ratio is fixed, therefor the supply of diesel is linked directly to gas. I don't think you'll see gas exceed the price of diesel for quite some time, if ever, since diesel fuels the parts of our infrastructure that are not really trimmable, while people will find alternatives to gas vehicles if it gets too pricey, which keeps the price low. (Is that circular logic?)

I guess what I'm suggesting is that if you really want an alternative to gas, diesel doesn't make much sense at all anymore. It's expensive, and if gas gets hard to find, diesel will be harder (Excepting in the case of a ZA, at which point the gas in storage tanks will eventually go bad and diesel will remain usable for a decade or more...) You're not going to get 40mpg out of a brick by putting a diesel in it. My girlfriend's liberty manages about 25, and it's fairly aerodynamic in comparison to many vehicles. I doubt you'd do much better in terms of efficiency with a 40 year old engine design in a more boxy body... Even if you sacrifice HP for mileage, you're not likely to break 30 unless you never break 45mph, and even then, not by much.

How about looking into gas electric hybrid technology, similar to a Volt. The VIA Motors trucks that Bob Lutz is involved with are an outstanding concept. Or for a cheap alternative, Natural Gas!! We have NG fueling stations here in CO, with some of the highest NG prices around, at $2.50/gge. (Gas Gallon Equivalent) It's as low a $1 just north in Wyoming... have considered adding a NG conversion to my Jeep for cheap fuel to and from work, while allowing the ability to use normal gasoline if ng isn't available.

Just my .02.

1Duece... I hear ya sir. Growing up (in the 70s-80s) I remember diesel always being way cheaper than gas. It wasn't until gas prices started to climb..uh, make that jump! that I really even thought about it much. My Dad was one of those thrifty (cheap *****) guys that would drive 20 miles for a 1 cent difference in gas prices.lol. And I can remember thinking way back then that diesel was cheap, why didn't we have one of those? Through the eyes of a child it made sense. But of course we allknow that diesel cars of the 70s and 80s and 90s were brimstone smoking demons that howled like the undead! So I can get why folks thought poorly of them (and I'm sure the gas companies were more than happy to let that image remain). But with still keeping that child's eye view of fuel (and not getting into stuff like global economy or power output per therm or whatever), I still see diesel as the front runner of future fuels. Why? Because it is available now, the technology to use it is proven and works and is basically simple in operation. And because there isn't an alteration or modification required to make it run (ie converting a gas car to EoverGas or CNG).
Here is the hitch though... and perhaps this is where I get lost in threads like these. The idea is to refuel the masses so everyone can afford to drive-ish. And while the lion's share of vehicles on US roads are certainly gasoline, that would mean that everyone would have to go buy a diesel... not likely. So for that I can see problems that I admit I don't fully have answers to. But I suppose my point to this thread is that Jeeps are almost a specialty/niche vehicle. Not counting things like the Compass or Patriot...Most Jeep vehicles are marketed towards folks that have a more rugged, self sufficient lifestyle (big generalization). And to my eyes, nothing says "I'm prepared" or "survival ready'' like a diesel. So it stands to reason that a diesel option in a Jeep makes a lot more sense based on "appearance" alone than it does for say a Soccer Mom minivan.
Your likely correct that almost any Jeep-Jeep (like a TJ/YJ/JK) is not really likely to see higher MPGs even with a diesel due to aerodynamics...better? Yes. But to get a LOT better would require those NASA level thinkers to conjure up some newer technology. Possible but not really likely. But Like with anything...driving style can lend a huge gain in MPG alone.
I have most of my stuff stored in your neck of the woods, Golden Co. The bulk of that stuff was hauled from Atlanta using my 99 Cummins pick up and 24' trailer. I averaged about 19MPG and I was admittedly WAY overloaded. Had I tried to do that same trip using my 6cyl full size Cheokee I would have likely been in single digit fuel numbers. Maybe that is a little apples to oranges but my point is that diesel is a worker... where as gas just simply doesn't keep up or costs more to do the same job.
CNG has its own potentials and I can agree to its validity. Yes, it would be somewhat expensive to do the initial conversion but one would have to weigh out the benefits. Limited travel distance based on fuel tank size/capacity seems one of the biggest hurdles. And knowing that the natural gas underground is "Claimed" by GOV doesn't help me get a warm fuzzy. It seems to easy for them to wait for me to sink a well and then come with the tax calculator and suddenly my cheap/free fuel is as expensive as gasoline.
Gotta run and work on the heep... back later!

 

[HillbillyfromAL]

Diesel prices jumped over gas because the EPA wanted cleaner diesel fuel. The extra refinement to remove sulfur down to 15ppm wasn't going to be cheap. In as far as alternative fuel vehicles diesel reigns supreme. You can run most of them on vegetable oil and all kinds of other stuff. Newer diesels with electronic injection are much more limited to what they can run on. So for all the SHTF guys make sure it's an old diesel. One thing to note though when gas stations ran out of gas during and after Katrina many of them still had diesel fuel.