Joined the Sprinter Revolution

[Motobueno]

As to 4x4,I would suggest taking a look at what John Bendit has done at the Sprinter Store in Oregon.
http://upscaleauto.com/sprinter_4x4.htm
There are some major differences when compared with the Whitefeather conversion pictured.
The Sprinter Store conversion does not need two different tire sizes because the diff ratios match.
It doesn't need spacers on the rear wheels,because the track width is the same front and back.
It has a transfer case mated to the transmission,NOT a divorced (separate) transfer case with a short drive shaft.
It does not need TWO steering stabilizers to keep the front end under control.
It is not lifted 12 inches.
It does not have a front end shake to 40 mph like the most recent Whitefeather conversion that was driven.
It does not need a special tone ring made so that the Ford front axel can communicate(FOOL) with the MB ECU,John's conversion is using MB parts and communicates just fine!
The major difference(if you have an understanding of how sensitive the MB ESP program is) Johns van does not know that it is a 4x4(That's a big one.Because if the ECU doesn't like something,Your not going anywhere!

Now I may be somewhat biased- as I have over 50k on my 4x4 conversion and I am still loving it!:wings:
If you have not seen mt van offroad: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BF7Bgs0k_CM
I don't need no straight front axel!:exclaim:

 

[BajaSportsmobile]

You have a really nice Sprinter! That is a cool system that they offer. I've looked into it and the WhiteFeather conversions.

You seem pretty well connected to the Sprinter Store so perhaps you can offer some insight for me.

I see that your Sprinter is a T1N, what year is it?
Have they converted any newer NCV3 Sprinters - couldn't find any on their website?
They state that conversions start at $26,000.00 - what does it really cost when all is said and done?
Do you have any idea how many T1N conversions were done and how many NCV3 were done?
Does their system operate in 2wd also or is it a "Full Time" AWD system and does it have a 4wd Low Range?

Concerning the WhiteFeather conversion:

Their conversion starts at $23,500.00 - where it ends up I don't know.
I agree, a Sprinter does not deserve a Straight Axle conversion.
Some of the points you listed below (taken from the Sprinter Store website) are misleading.
They do not need two different tire sizes.
Wheel adapter is no big deal and the wider track width could be seen as an advantage.
Using a divorced TC means not having to open up and rebuild the factory transmission - also allows better selection of TCs (want a Atlas II).
Their lift is 4.5" (Sprinter Store is 3") not 12" but you could lift it more if you wanted to.
How many million Ford F250 - F550 use that same assembly with no "front end shake"?
Making a tone ring with the same number of teeth is no big deal.

They are two different animals and both seem like they have their advantages and disadvantages - like everything.

Both have one big disadvantage - they cost way too much!

Does anyone have any ideas how many Sprinter conversions WhiteFeather has done?

As to 4x4,I would suggest taking a look at what John Bendit has done at the Sprinter Store in Oregon.
http://upscaleauto.com/sprinter_4x4.htm
There are some major differences when compared with the Whitefeather conversion pictured.
The Sprinter Store conversion does not need two different tire sizes because the diff ratios match.
It doesn't need spacers on the rear wheels,because the track width is the same front and back.
It has a transfer case mated to the transmission,NOT a divorced (separate) transfer case with a short drive shaft.
It does not need TWO steering stabilizers to keep the front end under control.
It is not lifted 12 inches.
It does not have a front end shake to 40 mph like the most recent Whitefeather conversion that was driven.
It does not need a special tone ring made so that the Ford front axel can communicate(FOOL) with the MB ECU,John's conversion is using MB parts and communicates just fine!
The major difference(if you have an understanding of how sensitive the MB ESP program is) Johns van does not know that it is a 4x4(That's a big one.Because if the ECU doesn't like something,Your not going anywhere!

Now I may be somewhat biased- as I have over 50k on my 4x4 conversion and I am still loving it!:wings:
If you have not seen mt van offroad: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BF7Bgs0k_CM
I don't need no straight front axel!:exclaim:

 

[Motobueno]

My van is an '06 and the only one,to date John has done 2 NCV3 van's.
You should look:Astrologist: at this again.http://upscaleauto.com/sprinter_4x4.htm There are two pictures of the
08' 4x4 on that page. May be you didn't notice it because the conversion only lifts the van about 3 inches
He has just completed a new 2013 Freightliner 170 passenger van for a customer in Alaska.
It's beautiful ! Hope John gets pictures up soon.

The system that John is using is on demand 4 wheel drive with hi and low range.It is a completely manual system.Only one lever to pull.Extremely simple.
Unlike my factory parts system- with all it's switches,pumps and computer interface!

Tire sizes?
I'm sorry- I have seen them with different size tires new from there factory.

"Using a divorced TC means not having to open up and rebuild the factory transmission - also allows better selection of TCs (want a Atlas II)."
The transmission is not rebuilt,the internals are installed in the new case when the conversion is done.There is a picture of the conversion case on the web pages.
The cases are switched out to one's that allow the transfercase to be bolted up just like most other 4x4's
John's set up will allow you to use just about any TC you want.The latest van uses a Jeep TC.

"Their lift is 4.5" (Sprinter Store is 3") not 12" but you could lift it more if you wanted to."
What,according to them! I've stood next to one and it is WAY more than 4.5" I'll be sure and have a tape measure next time!!

"How many million Ford F250 - F550 use that same assembly with no "front end shake"?"
Probably all of them- DUH
Were talking about what the experience of driving a brand new Whitefeather conversion that shook up to about 40mph on acceleration.With not one but TWO steering stabilizers!

All I can say about having to make a tone ring is,
IT'S ONLY THE TIP OF THE ICEBERG:ylsmoke:!

I thought the price more in the 20k range,you would have to call John on that.

 

[BajaSportsmobile]

$26,000.00 according to his website but you make it seem worth it to you as you are obviously very happy with your's. You were not clear, does yours have a low range?

 

[Motobueno]

Yeah-$26,000 is a lot of money.Back when I did my conversion it was a little less.The parts to do this are not cheap. John builds his conversion as efficiently as possible which is not the same as-as cheap as possible.
I have low range on my van.In fact I just put it into low range the other day on some dirt.It had literally been years without using low range.I wanted to see if it still worked.I have not been in situation where I have had to use it.I ordered my kit with hi and low range because it was the first one and I wanted to test all the options(The Sportsmobile T1n factory parts conversion van did not have low range).In the offroad video,I was never in low range.
Low range-in my experience (50k) it is not really necessary. But cool:bike_rider: to have the option!

I have NEVER seen any postings from Whitefeather owners about there van's.????
Oh-I take that back- several years ago I found a posting on a FORD truck forum by a new owner asking if anyone knew how to make a Ford front axel talk to a Mercedes computer.
And that was after taking delivery.IS there something wrong with this picture?

And then there is the Whitefeather T1n like mine that has come thru John's shop several times with drivability issues.It is almost undriveable!It is so high off the ground and the body roll sensor is so high(with no compensation) that the truck shuts itself down on sweeping freeway turns.According to the owner,Whitefeathers response was "It worked when it left here"
And as far as I know his problems have been completely blown off by Whitefeather. That is according to the owner.

 

[scubanw3]

Greetings Everyone,

I see there has been some interest in 4wd Sprinters as well as questions about the various conversions that exist. So, this is some information that I hope helps.

Here is our latest 4wd creation, version 2.1, pretty unassuming and 1955 Willys Jeep simple. It is a 2013 2500 170” std length high roof 12 passenger van and it will be heading to Alaska at the beginning of October. Currently, it has about 1500 miles on the conversion. The owner got 18mpg highway on her resent vacation swing from Portland to Northern California and back. We are doing some final checks and adding a driver’s doorstep before it is shipped. The best way to describe the driving experience is to say it is like driving a late model Suburban. Effortless, smooth cornering, excellent handling, smooth and quite ride, no vibrations and a rock solid feel from standing still to 82 mph. You can easily shift on the fly in and out of 2wd and 4wd at highway speeds. We do have 4wd low range as well. Here is an excerpt from a letter the owner wrote to us after her vacation. “I am thoroughly delighted with the 4wd conversion. The 1400 mile test drive from Portland to Auburn, CA and back was very enjoyable. The vehicle handles very smoothly both during highway driving as well as in the city. It was a breeze to park in the only spot left in downtown Ashland during their summer theater and arts festival. I couldn’t be happier!”

Our conversion raises the body height 4.5”. This is the same as the factory Oberaigner and the Achleitner Mantra conversions (Oberaigner and Achleitner are Austrian companies). The minimal body lift is important and one of the reasons for the excellent handling in our design as well as the factory and Achleitner designs. In addition, we convert the front suspension to IFS (independent front suspension) using an upper control arm, which is another reason for it handling so well. The Mantra also uses IFS with an upper arm and it also has very good Sprinter like driving characteristics. Whitefeather uses a late 90’s solid F-350 Dana axle resulting in an 8” lift and driving characteristics like a built and lifted Ford F350 4x4.

I can tell you from experience, the T1N factory 4wd conversion is very Sprinter 2wd like in it’s driving and handling. It retains the factory transverse front spring suspension so all the driving characteristics between the two are very similar, it just sits a little higher. I can also tell you from experience that the Whitefeather and Achleitner conversions have vibration issues on acceleration, the Whitefeather by far more than the Achleitner. These two designs both share what I believe to be a common issue, a divorced transfer case (TC). A divorced TC means a 3rd driveline, which increases the possibility of vibrations and is the reason the manufacturers quit using this design in the 60’s. The T1N factory conversion has a married transfer case, as does our design, and the result is no vibrations during acceleration. Otherwise, the Mantra’s steering and handling is very good and very Sprinter like, the Whitefeather conversion not so much. The Whitefeather conversion has little to no “road feel” in the steering and it is darty. Iglhaut is a German Sprinter 4wd conversion company who also owns several MB dealerships. Their design is a cross between the Oberaigner and Achleitner designs. They use their own version of a transverse spring and a divorced TC. In the past, I have contacted them and received limited response and information. Other than the front spring, I would assume their conversion and handling characteristics are similar in most respects to the Achleitner product.

After installing a T1N factory Oberaigner conversion kit, closely examining and repairing Whitefeather NCV3 and T1N conversions, working on and closely examining the Achleitner Mantra conversion, and designing version 1.95 and 2.1 of my own conversion, I can say with out bias that our version 2.1 is the best at highway and around town handling and driving. It actually handles better than a normal 2wd Sprinter. You really don’t know your driving a 4wd Sprinter. Off road, I have only driven the T1N factory Oberaigner and our conversion. Both are extremely sure footed going everywhere we want them to go with the T1N (converted in 09) having far more off road adventure to date. As for the Achleitner and the Whitefeather conversions, I am sure they are as equally capable. I do know an Achleitner Mantra that we worked on recently has been literally around the world seeing the Gobi Desert, Lake Baikal and the Mongolian Steps, and I do know that a Whitefeather T1N conversion we work on regularly has spent time off road, as the owner is a nature photographer.

I understand that some may feel I am bias in my opinion but people that know me know I am not. This has been a straightforward comparison. Believe me, I wouldn’t have spent $75,000 (making little to no profit) and 2.5 years “screwing” around (although it was fun) building a better mouse trap if my competition’s product was able to be purchased or even worth purchasing!! Hope this information helps.

Thank you, John
Sprinter Store
http://sprinterstore.com/
A division of Upscale Automotive, Inc.
19460 SW 89th Ave.
Tualatin, OR 97062
503-692-0846

 

[Overland Hadley]

Thanks for the update John.

 

[montanawild]

I recently purchased a 2015 Sprinter 4x4 and I'm very happy with it so far.

 

[scottymcdonald]

Hi All,

Just curious about how these aftermarket 4x4 conversions compare to the current factory 4x4? Also, is the current factory 4x4 for US vans the same system as the European vans? Is there any advantage (price or capability) between the systems?

 

[ucs308]

I am interested in this too. Anybody here able to compare and contrast?

 

[luthj]

I do not own a 4x4 sprinter. However I have been interesting in the 4WD options for a while. This is my basic understanding, please correct any errors that you notice.

Here are some basics. The aftermarket options normally use solid axles and a large lift to clear them. A transfer case is attached to the stock transmission. These usually have hi/lo standard 4x4 operation. Lockers are available if desired. They supposedly handle well, and if done correctly the ESP/ABS functions are not lost for 2WD on-road operation.

The factory options (NCV3 2015+ in the USA) have an independent front suspension, and are raised several inches compared to stock vans. Lockers are not available as far as i know, however the traction control and ESP systems seem well designed, and may compensate for that. They are available with several different transfer cases. One has Hi/low, another option is essentially AWD with an extra center differential (Not sure what type). There has been some initial teething pains with axles mounting angles and transfer case adjustments. I believe these have been worked out at this point with design changes.

Van Compass has started prototyping a 4WD conversion for the earlier T1N vans (pre 2007). They were using Mercedes SUV parts, which means independent front suspension, and sprinter transmission compatible transfer case.

If you need more details head over the the Sprinter-source.com forums. There is one devoted to the factory 4x4, and several posters with aftermarket kits have posted pictures.

 

[Haf-E]

Hi All,Just curious about how these aftermarket 4x4 conversions compare to the current factory 4x4? Also, is the current factory 4x4 for US vans the same system as the European vans? Is there any advantage (price or capability) between the systems?

The advantage of the 4WD conversion system being developed by the Van Compass guys is that it works on the older T1N sprinters (2002-2006 for USA) which are smaller, cheaper and simpler than the later NV3 vans - especially since they do not have the SCR and DEF emissions systems on them. These engines also can tolerate low sulfur fuel - i.e. 50 PPM compared to the later Sprinters need for Ultra low sulfur fuel - i.e. 15 PPM.

The Van Compass conversion is based on the Mercedes ML320 SUV - which are widely available and cheap and features a center differential (providing full-time AWD ability) and a low range gear ratio of 2.5 - which will allow for nice off road crawling - I think the new 4x4 Sprinters have only a 1.5 low range ratio and they are only a part-time system and must be manually engaged with a dash-mounted switch at speeds of 6 mph or less, and low range will click in only during a stand-still, like most 4x4 systems. It also automatically disengages if the driver speeds up without switching back to 2-wheel drive.

The only concerns on the conversion is the weight rating on the ML 320 is low compared to the sprinter and how it will work with the ECU - but they are working on ways to address that.

The newer sprinters are nicer inside, have more room and are more powerful - but also expensive - too expensive for me to beat up off-road. The challenge is finding a low enough miles T1N sprinter to put the conversion on - but they are out there still.

To me, a 4WD conversion of a T1N sprinter looks like a better vehicle for most people than a Syncro Vanagon - lots more room - easier to get parts - 5 speed automatic - good low range gear - airbags - antilock brakes - higher weight capacity - better brakes - more powerful diesel engine. A 4WD sprinter is not as capable off road as a well equipped Syncro - but that is not really as important for overland / camping use.

 

[Herbie]

To me, a 4WD conversion of a T1N sprinter looks like a better vehicle for most people than a Syncro Vanagon - lots more room - easier to get parts - 5 speed automatic - good low range gear - airbags - antilock brakes - higher weight capacity - better brakes - more powerful diesel engine. A 4WD sprinter is not as capable off road as a well equipped Syncro - but that is not really as important for overland / camping use.

Agreed. If they get a viable and more-or-less cost competitive conversion going for the T1N sprinters, I'd sell my Astro and put down a deposit.

 

[Haf-E]

Humm... I usually tell people to consider an AWD Astro instead of a Syncro Vanagon....

 

[Herbie]

Humm... I usually tell people to consider an AWD Astro instead of a Syncro Vanagon....

If you and your stuff fits in an Astro, then it's a fantastic package. Lots of couples doing just fine. For my growing family though, it's a squeeze!