Just begging for a wisecrack . . .

[calamaridog]

I admit Land Rovers are damn sexy. If I hadn't heard the negatives about the Discovery's reliability I would have twoeepwall:





Damn, I hope my LC starts in the morning...

 

[gjackson]

Lest this devolve into a make flame war, I do have to admit that I would give my left nut for a 75 or 78 series diesel troopie. Sweet trucks!!

Right now I own a 110 and don't need a 78, but they are the defenders of the toyota world. (Or maybe defenders are the 70 series of the land rover world?). For reliability they are excellent, but so is my defender. Any way you cut it, the car that breaks down on you in a pinch is the car you will deride, no matter the make. Believe me, there are planty of stories of land cruisers breaking, just as there are of land rovers. It all comes from your own experience. No land rover I have owned has ever left me stranded. No land rover my familiy has owned has ever left any of us stranded. They have broken down, sure, but never stranded us. We have never owned land cruisers, so I can't speak to them. But I can't say lr lacks for reliability. Other peoples' experience will obviously differ. But for the record, "charms" are not something I want or will tollerate on my expedition rig.

But wow, that FJ tool is kinda hokey!

cheers

 

[Z O O R O P A]

Jackson,

Land Rovers are like Bond Girls exactly. Nice to look at and nice to take a ride in now and then but if you are looking for depth and longevity, look else where

Of ALL the 100s of Land Rover owners I have spoken to, who love their rigs as much as you, not one NOT ONE ever said - it is reliable and trouble free!

I hear that from Toyota owners, I hear that from other makes n models. But please attempt to give an honest impression. Toyota owners complaiun about everyonehaving the same rig and driving the same car or that they wish the seats were comfy

Rover owners have chapped lips from bawling out the dealer every week :wings:

I have owned to many LR and my current one has 55k and I can't wait to be free of it - it has never given me a problem to my complete and absolute surprise and amazement

 

[Jonathan Hanson]

I agree with what has been said about the comparison between the Defender and the 70-series Land Cruiser being more appropriate. Land Rover seems to get in the most trouble when they load up a vehicle (Disco, Rangie) with electronic toys such as heated and power seats, etc. Like it or not the English have never mastered electronics.

Yet in engineering Land Rover has always pushed the envelope. The Range Rover introduced four-wheel long-travel coil-spring suspension to the world in 1970; it was over two decades before Toyota climbed on that bus.

I love my FJ40, which has given me 300,000 miles of totally trouble-free service. But I am always aware of the fact that it is essentlally a copy, a calculated plan by Toyota to take market share away from Land Rover, the company that pioneered (however accidentally at first) the concept of the lightweight expedition vehicle. Even the name "Land Cruiser" is a hokey ripoff when you look at it objectively. Still, you have to give credit to the Japanese for improving many things, especially reliability--which must by any measure be the number one concern in an expedition vehicle.

No one can reasonably argue that Land Rover doesn't need better quality control. Yet there are still many, many reasons to choose a Defender or Series vehicle as a base for an expedition machine. And I would not count tradition and loyalty lightly among them. That's why I bought one!

 

[Ron B]

I'm so used to people dissing my ride (old-school hummer) that it's mildly entertaining to see another make getting dumped on! But in all seriousness... even with their deficiencies, a LR 110 or 90 are about the only trucks that still turn my head whether on the road or the trails.

I'm sure exotic sports cars spend less time on the road and more time in the shop as well. But for some, owning a jack of all trades/master of none just won't do. Don't get me wrong, I like certain aspects of all makes. They each have strengths/weaknesses (including the "exotics").

Ron B

 

[bootzilla]

I totally loved my Land Rover - except for the part where it liked to leak oil and go the to shop for new rear main seals. Part of loving LR's is being able to make fun of their constant quirks and problems - it is part of their character....

...'course, I choose to admire that character from afar, at this point, but that is only because I got tired of driving back and forth to the dealership (It did have it's benefits, though - I got to drive all kinds of cool loaner vehicles while mine was getting repaired - the LR3 was by far my favorite, at one point I had to drive one for three weeks straight - everyone at work thought I got a raise that nobody knew about!)

So does that multi-tool require oil to be added every other week?

 

[Z O O R O P A]

I totally loved my Land Rover - except for the part where it liked to leak oil and go the to shop for new rear main seals. Part of loving LR's is being able to make fun of their constant quirks and problems - it is part of their character....

...'course, I choose to admire that character from afar, at this point, but that is only because I got tired of driving back and forth to the dealership (It did have it's benefits, though -

:wings: :clapsmile

I got to drive all kinds of cool loaner vehicles while mine was getting repaired - the LR3 was by far my favorite, at one point I had to drive one for three weeks straight - everyone at work thought I got a raise that nobody knew about!)

So does that multi-tool require oil to be added every other week?

HAHAHAH AWESOME ! ! ! !

 

[gjackson]

Okay, I'll bite, though I know I shouldn't.

But please attempt to give an honest impression.

I did. I gave a completely honest impression. My truck has NEVER stranded me. That is 30,000 miles in Africa and 22,000 in the US, a lot of that off road. Yes, I can't put up a 300,000 mile log, but then my truck just hasn't done that yet. Everything I said was based on my experience with my own vehicles.

Like I said, my impressions are based on my experience. ZOOROPA, I'm sorry your experience with LR was so bad. And if that is the case, by all means go elsewhere. But realize that not every one has had your experience, neither will they. My LR is everything I wanted and EXPECTED. I find no fault with it. Having said that, I don't own a Disco or a Rangie or an LR3 or a Freelander.

No LR dealer would touch my LR anyway. I do all my own work. :wings: Much better that way!


cheers

 

[Z O O R O P A]

Jackson,

I did not mean to give offense. That is not my intention here nor the mentality or demeanor of this website. Which seperates it from all other websites in my mind and what makes this place even more unique

I have owned a lot of cars for my age. More importantly like you all, I have watched those around me own cars. I love Rovers as much as you, they just are not well built cars. Allow me to rephrase that; most Land Rovers that come off the assembly line are not well built. Ok?

Look at Bootzillas post. Not only is it hilarious, and it is, I mean extreemly funny, it is important to maintain an attitude such as this when you are the unfortunate owner of a vehicle like this.

It is also an accurate account of the many 100s of owners who I have met, either at events, crossing the country, or on the nice leather sofas of my local dealer. I have been to many dealers too. I have owned Rovers in while living in different states and it is the same story. Jackson, that is not just my epxerience but the common and more than average experience of most owners. Hence the piss poor consumer reports year after year. Land Rover has been in the bottom 10 for ever

Defenders don't have alot to them. Engine bay, axles, swival balls, etc there is not alot there. So, yes there should not be alot of issues. It is a real basic vehicle. It is hot and wet in the summer and cold and leaky in the winter. And for what you get the inflated price, is well, inflated greatly.

That aside, Buick made a terrible engine in both Defenders and Discos and BMW did do some improvements with the Bosch system etc but not nearly enough and lost so much $$$ they bailed out after only a few years

They are not great daily drivers. They are not great expedition vehicles. They are comfy and aesthetically nice looking and designed

A Land Rover has a romantic image attached to it but a Discovery or Defender has less going for it as far as overland and daily durability than many other makes. If not for the large amount of support from other manfacts. that supply the racks and accessories LR would not be a consideration for long distance travel for over land with a petrol engine anyway

AGAINST IT-
Reliabilty
gas mil.
support
access for on the trail fix
expensive and limited availability for accessories
poor engine performance
auto only
petrol only with lower than stated gas mil
premium gas required <----------

FOR IT-
comfort
looks
can pull anything
heavy and stout
image
Diff man lock
Good 4 wheel drive system
what else?

Now take Jeep Toyota Nissan and ask the same questions and side by side the 4 Runner or Tacoma, Xterra, Cherokee or wrangler will have the same performance or better than the Rover in every aspect except looks and image and maybe what it can tow. Also Rovers 4x4 is superior but at a large cost. It is not durable. What is durable? A system that does not need major over haul after 60-90k miles after little to none off roading


I like Land Rovers too, but see them for what they are and what they are not please.

You can not tell us Land Rovers are great cars because of your D110, which you fix on your own.

 

[Ron B]

I am no pro on the LR, but isn't the auto tranny and gas engine required here in the US, but options everywhere else? Looks like with these two options, your against list shrinks considerably.

Like Mr Jackson, I wouldn't let a dealer touch my truck either (most hummer dealers wouldn't know what to do anyway). Once you are out of warranty (and sometimes before) run away! Besides the fact that the dealer most often employs morons to work on your vehicle at $110/hr or more, I think it's important to do as much of your own maintenace as possible so you are familiar with your truck when ******** happens out in the boonies. And ******** will happen no matter what you drive, and always at the most inopportune time (is there an opportune time for ******** to happen?). I guess with some trucks it just happens more often, it's a choice.

ron b

 

[Z O O R O P A]

very true , there really are no Diesels available but the landy gets worse mpgs than most - but according to Jeep this wont be true for long as they are introducing Ds to the USA

outside the USA Ds are are common but the service and reliability of Rovers is the same

most of us dont have the time to work on our own cars and rely on the dealer

other dealers of other makes of cars I have owned didnt have the same effect on various makes and models I have purchased so that is irrelevant

""I guess with some trucks it just happens more often, it's a choice. ""

that is the whole point -

msot dealers don't hire just morons, I dont agree with that general remark unless you are getting your 45K vehicle fixed at a gas station off the highway

******** does happen, just more often like you said on some makes and that is all the difference in: owner content, money in your pocket, time you get to drive the car, anxirty or concern about going off the road and basic confidence in your purchase mmkay

 

[Robthebrit]

Even though I am a Brit I know very little about LR's, although I would really like an older one. When I hear all the time they are unreliable what does that really mean? Do they typically have major mechanical problems or is it just lots of little things?

For example my mog; its got unsurpassed reliability and I am confident it would drive me to the end of the world but there is always something not quite working properly. There is always an oil leak here or there, a chaffed wire, things that need adjusting, the wipers might fall off etc. I originally put this down to being 30+ years old but the brand new ones have plenty of little issues too. The end result is it feels like I am always fixing it and working on it but its nothing serious.

Is the LR the same as this or does it have more worrying problems?

Rob

 

[Jonathan Hanson]

My, this little multi-tool spoof certainly grew legs. But I believe a thoughtful discussion along these lines is a good thing. Too many LR owner websites shrug off or even deny the company's problems, and too many Toyota (and other brand) sites dismiss the entire Land Rover line as garbage.

Rob, I believe I can speak objectively as a long-time Land Cruiser owner and long-time Land Rover fan (and recent owner), and competent amateur mechanic who has worked on both.

It is incontrovertible that Land Rover's more cosmopolitan models (Disco, Range Rover, Freelander) suffer from numerous faults that relegate the company to the basement of reliability surveys both in the U.S. and in England. Five minutes on the web will confirm this beyond argument. Yet loyalty among owners of those vehicles is surprisingly high, which I believe must be put down to engineering and design - when they work, they work really, really well at their goal of combining luxury with serious off-road ability.

The 1993 (?) to 1997 (?) Defender in the U.S. (a different beast than the turbodiesel models sold elsewhere) experienced fewer minor defects, but still suffered more major component failures than it should have. Look at ads for Defender 90s with 50,000 to 60,000 miles on them and you'll note a high percentage of replaced transmissions (Graham will know the bad one) and even engines - the aluminum V8 seemed inclined to either run forever or detonate early, depending on the luck of the draw. And when Land Rover stopped galvanising the body trim and instead simply painted over it, they began experiencing early rust in those areas. East Coast Rovers makes boatloads of money correcting this problem.

However, the ROW (rest of world) Defender fares much better. Yes, assembly can often be described as haphazard, but the vehicle is so basic that there’s a lot of leeway for haphazard assembly. And the turbodiesels seem to run much longer than the petrol engines. This explains why plenty of people in Africa still use Defenders for both private trips and safari company use.

The best thing about the Series/Defender is the mechano aspect of the thing. I could turn my 1974 Series III into a Defender simply by replacing components one at a time – coil-spring chassis, turbodiesel engine, five-speed transmission, even bodywork. The crossover in parts from year to year is unmatched by any other utility 4x4. That has to be a real advantage for third-world users.

In the end, I think the famous PR line for Jeeps, “It’s a Jeep thing, you wouldn’t understand,” could better have been adopted by Land Rover. You either understand it or you don’t.

 

[gjackson]

ZOOROPA,

I guess we'll just have to a agree to disagree.

I think LRs do make great expedition vehicles. I think I have the experience to justify that position. And I can tell you that LRs are great vehicles based on my D110 even if I do fix it myself. By great here I mean specific things: it is very capable off-road, it carrys me and all my equipment in comfort, it is easy to modify and customize to make it a better expedition vehicle for me, there are tons of aftermarket parts and accessories avaliable, parts are easy to source anywhere in the world etc. And I don't deny that the same can be said of a 70 series LC. I choose a Defender because I have had a lot of experience with LRs, so I know the platform and don't have to learn a bunch of new tricks to outfit one. I also don't deny that LR has build quility issues and that some LR are plagued with problems. I haven't had that experience with any of mine (2 Defenders and a Series IIa) or with any of the LRs in my family (2 RR classics, a Disco, a Series III 109 and 2 Series IIa 109s).

And don't worry, you didn't offend me. I think I have a healthy sense of humor about what I drive. I just don't like gross generalizations that obviously aren't true. And having said all these nice things about LRs, I fully expect my clutch to fail next time I get in the 110!!! :smiley_drive:

Is the LR the same as this or does it have more worrying problems?

The LR is pretty much the same. My series IIa had all sorts of things that weren't working quite right, but the vehcile ran well and did what I wanted. I think the things (like flashers, heater, brakes) that didn't work properly were mainly due to age and neglect when I pruchased the car. Since the car ran and did what I wanted I didn't put much priority on fixing those things. Certain models do have specific problems and certain components have been shown to be weak. The LT77 gearbox, for instance was prone to fail, and the R380 while better can't handle the amount of torque that many upgraded engines put through it. First model years of vehicles should be avoided (true with any marque I think). And rust on RRs and late Defenders can be a bear.

However, the ROW (rest of world) Defender fares much better

Very true. ROW Defenders and CKD kits put together in SA and Brazil don't have the same QC problems that eat away at Solihul vehicles. But they aren't perfect either!

cheers

 

[david despain]

cat out of the bag

I cant belive no one brought up the cat story......

So an engineer from Solihul goes to vist the land crusier factory in japan and he is with an engineer from toyota at the very end of the assembly line, where they add the new car smell and armor all the tires and he notices that as the truck rolls off the line there is one guy taking cats out of a burlap sack and tossing them in the truck. the brit asks the toyota guy what's this all about then. His answer is that to make sure the toyota is properly sealed up so all the doughy pasty middle aged middle management and soccer moms dont complain about wind noise and water leaks they toss in a cat and in the morning the cat has suffocated from the perfect seal. The LR guy thinks wow thats pretty good manufacturing and decides to try it out when he gets home. So after he explains it to the production manager they give it a try. They toss in a cat and the next morning they go out to see if their seals were good enough to suffocate the cat and they find..... they cat escaped!

Also i really love my disco this time of year, not for its winter storm road handling ability but because the dash is lit up like a festivus tree! Its a merry reminder of the holiday season. i have the 3 amigos and the CE lite.

david. i love my disco and all its charm. i think i want a RRC for to build an off roader only.