DirtWhiskey
Western Dirt Rat
Wo Nelly! Do you have a build thread for that BEAST? RAD.
Larger than a Dana 60?
- Thread starter baipin
- Start date
Wo Nelly! Do you have a build thread for that BEAST? RAD.
DirtWhiskey
Western Dirt Rat
Right. The F350 versions with wide track are unicorns. Around these parts clapped out 4x4 f450 and f550s grow on trees. 05+ is what you're looking for if you want wide track. Because of 6.0 and 6.4 had lots of issues, we have lots of them, old oil field trucks and various work trucks. You're going to want to rebuild any axles you get anyway. Then you have to figure out how to mount spring buckets etc and get it to match frame rail width. BUT with a truck this big it might be smart to get as much radius as possible. I've bought two rolling chassis for less than 1500.
OP what is the frame width on that bus?
G35Vortec454
Adventurer
I started a thread of the preparations for the project; unfortunately I did not follow through with the build until the drivetrain was completed.
https://expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/new-4x4-project-seeking-advice-or-vendor-parts.183753/
The build was my 4th 4x4 motorhome conversion. It was just a lot of "measure twice, cut once". Since the frame widths of the E350 and F450 are different, the trick part of the axles swap was the mounts for the radius arms and rear spring mounts/shackles. To achieve a 7-1/2 inch lift I had to mount the rear-end spring shackle inside an 8"x8" 1/4" wall steel tube welded under the chassis frame, and of course welding the appropriate-height brackets under the front mounts. Using adjustable cams for camber and the BD radius arms caster adjusters makes it convenient to dial in the alignment of the new suspension geometry. I used a spacer block under the old front coil springs from the E350, To refine the suspension, I used Sumosprings in front and air bags at the rear. To drive in 4x4, it has a divorced NP205 transfer case with cable-driven shifters.
baipin
Active member
Sorry for the late reply... Didn't see it there!
Frame width is standard 34" with as with nearly all medium duty and larger trucks.
I've since trussed and gusseted the Dana 60, and added 35 spline outers + Warn premium hubs. Best option - for a variety of reasons - was to work with what I have.
Functionally, the only difference between an open knuckle kingpin Dana 70 is the ring and pinion; otherwise, the inner C's, outer shafts, hub lockouts, and axle tube, all have the same strength or are the same parts. I could basically turn this axle into a "true" Dana 70 with a Jana 76 kit, which I might do if it'd be worth the cost for that 10.50" ring gear... Far as I can tell my axle should be able to support the load that an open-knuckle kingpin Dana 70 could (6,000-7,000lbs depending on model). I feel confident saying it's stronger than a closed-knuckle Dana 70 - apparently stock Dana 60's are too. The question is if it can move that load well enough... a 9.75 ring gear is smaller than a Dana S60's at 10.10", but the S60 is also used in applications up to 18,000 (F550) and I won't be near that with my bus (13,000-14,000 more like it). Apparently Fuso Canter 4x4's have a 9.25" front axle - and I don't hear of them blowing diffs - but I'm not 100% certain about that. Oka's, of course, use the D60 and the most common failures I've read about, are directly addressed with the axle truss, inner C gussets, and 35 spline shafts. Curious to know what others think.
A true Super 60, a.k.a Fat Boy is rated at a higher GAWR and is noticeably wider than the 60 found on an F250. Look at a 450 or 550 beside a 250 and you will see the track is much wider. This allows a sharper turning radius and is quite useful when you get into roll back and flat beds being fitted to a crew cab pickup.
If you really want a beefy front axle, look at a Torq 14 bolt or a steering Dana 80. DO NOT BUY FROM DYNATRAC AXLES!!!!!!!!! These are both custom axles, not something you will find in a junk yard.
Super 60s, a.k.a Fat Boys, were available in #6k and #7k GAWR. Both have 3.75” diameter axle tubes that are 1/2” thick. This tubing has an MOI of 6.9 with a weight of 17.375 PPF. XD60 uses 3.75” x 0.3125”, weighs 11.5 PPLF and has an MOI of 5.026, which is only 55% of the 4.5” Spidertrax housing. Currie has built 3” OD x 1/2” wall axle housings for military vehicles weighing over 10k curb. This tubing weighs 13.4 PPLF and has a moment of inertia of 3.191.
Use a 4” OD x 0.5” wall (D80) and weight jumps to 18.75 PPLF and strength to 8.6 MOI, up 17% and 58% respectively. If the 4.5” OD x 0.3125 Spidertrax housing were used, weight decreases to 14 PPF (25% savings), but strength increases to 9.061 MOI, the highest of the group, and 5% stronger than D80 tubing.
An OEM front 60 uses 3.125” OD x 1/2” tubing, weight is 14 PPF and MOI is 3.68. The Spidertrax housing above is 150% stronger than a D60, rated at #6,500 by Dana, and 60% stronger than a D70 steering axle, which is rated at #8,000 by Dana, making it a 13k – 16k axle, in real world use, though it isn't rated to that. An F550 can be fitted with 41s without modification to the OEM (#7k) Super 60 as fitted to Ford F550.
If you really want a beefy front axle, look at a Torq 14 bolt or a steering Dana 80. DO NOT BUY FROM DYNATRAC AXLES!!!!!!!!! These are both custom axles, not something you will find in a junk yard.
Super 60s, a.k.a Fat Boys, were available in #6k and #7k GAWR. Both have 3.75” diameter axle tubes that are 1/2” thick. This tubing has an MOI of 6.9 with a weight of 17.375 PPF. XD60 uses 3.75” x 0.3125”, weighs 11.5 PPLF and has an MOI of 5.026, which is only 55% of the 4.5” Spidertrax housing. Currie has built 3” OD x 1/2” wall axle housings for military vehicles weighing over 10k curb. This tubing weighs 13.4 PPLF and has a moment of inertia of 3.191.
Use a 4” OD x 0.5” wall (D80) and weight jumps to 18.75 PPLF and strength to 8.6 MOI, up 17% and 58% respectively. If the 4.5” OD x 0.3125 Spidertrax housing were used, weight decreases to 14 PPF (25% savings), but strength increases to 9.061 MOI, the highest of the group, and 5% stronger than D80 tubing.
An OEM front 60 uses 3.125” OD x 1/2” tubing, weight is 14 PPF and MOI is 3.68. The Spidertrax housing above is 150% stronger than a D60, rated at #6,500 by Dana, and 60% stronger than a D70 steering axle, which is rated at #8,000 by Dana, making it a 13k – 16k axle, in real world use, though it isn't rated to that. An F550 can be fitted with 41s without modification to the OEM (#7k) Super 60 as fitted to Ford F550.
baipin
Active member
Thank you very much for all this information. the moment of inertia data really helps put this in perspective. I'm interesting to calculate how my trussed axle compares in MOI to the others. One question...
In the bold part, are you referring to a classic, kingpin D60 like mine, or to the Super 60?
When you said
were you referring to the Dana rating or the I assume, a lower Ford rating?
I found a guy selling a half-built 14 bolt front; TMR truss, inner C's, knuckles, missing everything else. Not sure if it's worth it though... Considering it.
baipin
Active member
Did some MOI calculations comparing my trussed axle with the ones you mentioned @DzlToy:
lyy doesn't increase by a significant amount (though granted, this ignores the section where the truss transitions from an I beam to a box as it nears the diff housing) but lxx has a massive increase - which I assume, for the purposes of an axle, is most important?
Big reason I went with an I-beam rather than box-beam type of truss is because the I-beam flange is the lowest part and first part to hit anything. It's been lined with a strip of 3/8"^2 stainless bar as a "wear surface" protecting the vertical section and the rest of the axle tube. Given the sheer amount of salt we use on our roads, inevitable abrasion and rust at the bottom would be a never-ending fight.
lyy doesn't increase by a significant amount (though granted, this ignores the section where the truss transitions from an I beam to a box as it nears the diff housing) but lxx has a massive increase - which I assume, for the purposes of an axle, is most important?
Big reason I went with an I-beam rather than box-beam type of truss is because the I-beam flange is the lowest part and first part to hit anything. It's been lined with a strip of 3/8"^2 stainless bar as a "wear surface" protecting the vertical section and the rest of the axle tube. Given the sheer amount of salt we use on our roads, inevitable abrasion and rust at the bottom would be a never-ending fight.