Let's Talk About Heating our Trailers.

Martyn

Supporting Sponsor, Overland Certified OC0018
You are mistaken. Catalytic heaters produce only heat, water, and carbon dioxide, not carbon monoxide.

I have both a Buddy and a Big Buddy and use one to heat my travel trailer when I'm boondocking. They have a low oxygen sensor which shuts them down if the oxygen level in the air drops too low. Even inside a closed trailer it has never shut down, because there is enough air exchange to maintain normal oxygen levels.

I also have a carbon monoxide alarm that sits about three feet from the heater. After a full night of running, when I get up in the morning the CO level is still zero ppm. I know the CO sensor is very sensitive because I have had it sound after a short time of using a propane lantern inside, and it was showing above 300 ppm CO.

They also have a very sensitive motion sensor of some kind. On many occasions I have had mine go out if I moved it while it was on. It's really annoying when I accidentally bump it when walking past it and then have to relight it. If I need to move it, I have found that I can very carefully slide it across the floor and it "might" stay lit. It takes very little movement to shut them down.

The bottom line here is that the Buddy heaters are specifically designed for indoor used. If they weren't safe, I would have been dead a long time ago. They are very safe.

JP

Sorry this is a long but important post:

With all respect what you have said is technically incorrect.

Catalytic Heaters produce carbon Monoxide under normal operating conditions.

"The peak CO concentration ranged from 68 ppm to 125 ppm and the steady state CO concentration ranged from 67 ppm to 109 ppm. Assuming a limited exposure time of up to 6.5 hours at these CO concentrations, the catalytic heater does not appear to pose a serious CO hazard to healthy adults when the CO concentration is considered by itself.

When the catalytic heater was operated in a closed room (ACH ~ 0), the oxygen was depleted from an ambient concentration of 20.9 percent to 8.8 percent. Because the catalytic heater can deplete the O2 concentration to such low levels, the heater poses a serious risk of hypoxia. The degree of hypoxia is further exacerbated by the moderate CO concentration and by an increase in the carbon dioxide concentration that accompanied the depletion of oxygen. • As the oxygen decreased in the chamber, the catalytic heater became less effective at converting the propane and oxygen to carbon dioxide and water vapor. This was reflected by an increase in the hydrocarbon concentration in the chamber, which ranged from 1,050 ppm to 13,440 ppm (5 to 64 percent of the lower explosion limit of propane in air). The unreacted propane further increases the degree of hypoxia.
if they are operating correctly. Carbon Monoxide is a by product of incomplete combustion, so it would take a fault of some sort to produce the CO."

June 2003, Prepared By David R. Tucholski, Directorate for Laboratory Sciences, United States Consumer Product Safety Commission.


This test assumes the heater is working correctly. As CO is a produce of incomplete combustion, would have to assume that if a heater unit malfunctioned the rates of CO would increase.

I question the low Oxygen senor, from the stand point that CO is cumulative in the body, binding to the hemoglobin in the red blood cells. An exposure to low levels of CO over a long period of time will prevent the blood cells from carrying oxygen, the same effect as high levels of CO over a short time period.

Death or sickness caused by CO can occur with plentiful supplies of Oxygen, the only thing good ventilation provides is to allow the CO to dissipate.

Removing someone from an area of high concentrations of CO does not have an immediate effect as the CO has to unbind from the hemoglobin and the process takes time.

"Early symptoms of carbon monoxide poisoning such as headaches, nausea, and fatigue, are often mistaken for the flu because the deadly gas goes undetected...

* No home therapy is available for carbon monoxide poisoning.

* You must seek medical care in a hospital emergency department.

* The treatment for carbon monoxide poisoning is high-dose oxygen, usually using a facemask attached to an oxygen reserve bag.

* Carbon monoxide levels in the blood may be periodically checked until they are low enough to safely send you home."

http://www.emedicinehealth.com/carbon_monoxide_poisoning/article_em.htm

The O2 sensor's prime objective is to stop combustion before death or sickness occurs because of lack of Oxygen. I would urge anyone using a direct heating method to use a battery operated CO monitor in their tent or trailer.
 

Wagon Burner

New member
Sorry this is a long but important post:

With all respect what you have said is technically incorrect.

Catalytic Heaters produce carbon Monoxide under normal operating conditions.

"The peak CO concentration ranged from 68 ppm to 125 ppm and the steady state CO concentration ranged from 67 ppm to 109 ppm. Assuming a limited exposure time of up to 6.5 hours at these CO concentrations, the catalytic heater does not appear to pose a serious CO hazard to healthy adults when the CO concentration is considered by itself.

When the catalytic heater was operated in a closed room (ACH ~ 0), the oxygen was depleted from an ambient concentration of 20.9 percent to 8.8 percent. Because the catalytic heater can deplete the O2 concentration to such low levels, the heater poses a serious risk of hypoxia. The degree of hypoxia is further exacerbated by the moderate CO concentration and by an increase in the carbon dioxide concentration that accompanied the depletion of oxygen. • As the oxygen decreased in the chamber, the catalytic heater became less effective at converting the propane and oxygen to carbon dioxide and water vapor. This was reflected by an increase in the hydrocarbon concentration in the chamber, which ranged from 1,050 ppm to 13,440 ppm (5 to 64 percent of the lower explosion limit of propane in air). The unreacted propane further increases the degree of hypoxia.
if they are operating correctly. Carbon Monoxide is a by product of incomplete combustion, so it would take a fault of some sort to produce the CO."

June 2003, Prepared By David R. Tucholski, Directorate for Laboratory Sciences, United States Consumer Product Safety Commission.


This test assumes the heater is working correctly. As CO is a produce of incomplete combustion, would have to assume that if a heater unit malfunctioned the rates of CO would increase.

I question the low Oxygen senor, from the stand point that CO is cumulative in the body, binding to the hemoglobin in the red blood cells. An exposure to low levels of CO over a long period of time will prevent the blood cells from carrying oxygen, the same effect as high levels of CO over a short time period.

Death or sickness caused by CO can occur with plentiful supplies of Oxygen, the only thing good ventilation provides is to allow the CO to dissipate.

Removing someone from an area of high concentrations of CO does not have an immediate effect as the CO has to unbind from the hemoglobin and the process takes time.

"Early symptoms of carbon monoxide poisoning such as headaches, nausea, and fatigue, are often mistaken for the flu because the deadly gas goes undetected...

* No home therapy is available for carbon monoxide poisoning.

* You must seek medical care in a hospital emergency department.

* The treatment for carbon monoxide poisoning is high-dose oxygen, usually using a facemask attached to an oxygen reserve bag.

* Carbon monoxide levels in the blood may be periodically checked until they are low enough to safely send you home."

http://www.emedicinehealth.com/carbon_monoxide_poisoning/article_em.htm

The O2 sensor's prime objective is to stop combustion before death or sickness occurs because of lack of Oxygen. I would urge anyone using a direct heating method to use a battery operated CO monitor in their tent or trailer.


Thanks Martyn, To me "This is excatly my point" when I say that I wouldnt put my Grandkids in a tent with one of these burning.


I want to stay on task here of discovering ways and imput of Airtronic's, Surburban, and such heaters in our trailers.

But I will say this. Based upon the info Ive read like Martyn's post here. I just would not sleep with one of these style heaters.
 

Martyn

Supporting Sponsor, Overland Certified OC0018
Thanks Martyn, To me "This is excatly my point" when I say that I wouldnt put my Grandkids in a tent with one of these burning.


I want to stay on task here of discovering ways and imput of Airtronic's, Surburban, and such heaters in our trailers.

But I will say this. Based upon the info Ive read like Martyn's post here. I just would not sleep with one of these style heaters.

The key is to have a CO detector not just a low oxygen sensor.

Let me ask you all this. Would you pay $750-$800 for a highly efficient propane heater?

Are you looking for a something less efficient in the $350.00 range?

Or something less $ with no care to efficiency?

By efficiency I'm talking about both propane consumption and an efficient 12 volt fan.
 

wagner_joe

Adventurer
:iagree:

X2 - Trailer wife always goes along, to boot, I also had a kid with trailer wife and when in doubt the 30 degree bags work just fine!

Even on the Adventure Training this past December with all the snow.. I was quite toasty... Although I did have the "winter" kit for my Overland tent..

It actually held up quite well to the 3-4 inches of snow..

I've thought about the heater, but quite frankly not seen the need with the types of bags we've purchased. With 3 bags rated for 0 degrees and 2 bags rated for 30 degrees. Based upon the layers we've worn to bed i've not found a heater being worth the carry in my Horizon.

However if by chance it was built in, the $750 would not be a question. So would I pay for it? Yes if it was built in. If it was another product to set-up. No.

my .02 for the day..
 

Wagon Burner

New member
The key is to have a CO detector not just a low oxygen sensor.

Let me ask you all this. Would you pay $750-$800 for a highly efficient propane heater?

Are you looking for a something less efficient in the $350.00 range?

Or something less $ with no care to efficiency?

By efficiency I'm talking about both propane consumption and an efficient 12 volt fan.


Martyn, I personaly would pay the $750 to $800 for a high efficiency system.
Let me know what your thinking, You definitly have me intrest.
 

WMac

Adventurer
I too would take the high efficiency, But I beleive that there would be a market for both. Some cant afford a $800.00 heater. but at $300.00 or so I could see them stepping up as well. Zodi seams to get all of us a little excited when its brought up, and at $150.00 it was pretty good concidering what it did. but that seams to be no more.

I dont see why someone like Martyn couldnt come up with a concept like Wagon burner described.

I think is a great idea to package it in a case that could be taken out of the storage hold, simply hung on the under belly of the trailer at camp, and with quick connects to the gas, ducting, I think it would be the bomb.

Heck with Martyns enginunity I bet a nice family with a little coin might buy one for the family tent as well. widening the marketability.
 

Curmudgeon

Adventurer
Martyn, I can't disagree with anything you've posted. That's why I run it only in an environment where I have a CO detector/alarm and adequate air exchange. I have even intentionally closed everything up and run it for long periods to see if I could get the CO levels up, and have never succeeded in getting the level above about 50 ppm. Believe me, I tested thoroughly before I actually accepted that it was safe. I have no desire to be a dead camper.

One of my campers has a wall mounted catalytic heater. It came equipped that way from the factory. That one I DO worry about, even though they were used in campers for decades and we don't see CO poisoning deaths attributed to them. I have also installed a CO detector/alarm in that camper as a safety measure. The Buddy heaters are clearly much safer than these old cat heaters.

I am a very cautious person, and don't take unnecessary risks. Reasonable caution and common sense should prevail in situations like this. Only a complete moron would use an open combustion appliance, catalytic or not, in a tightly sealed environment.

By the way, I think what you meant to say in your opening sentence was "Catalytic Heaters DO NOT produce carbon Monoxide under normal operating conditions."
 

kb7our

Explorer
The key is to have a CO detector not just a low oxygen sensor.

Let me ask you all this. Would you pay $750-$800 for a highly efficient propane heater?

ABSOLUTELY if it was of high quality and could be used in multiple tent configurations and at altitude - BUT....I'd like to stay within the $500 range which although still quite expensive "seems" more reasonable for such an item.

Wade
 
Last edited:

jbs

Observer
The key is to have a CO detector not just a low oxygen sensor.

Let me ask you all this. Would you pay $750-$800 for a highly efficient propane heater?
Yes, quite likely
Are you looking for a something less efficient in the $350.00 range?
I'd definitely be interested in this.
Or something less $ with no care to efficiency?
I care about efficiency, but only to an extent. What I really want is a heater that can SAFELY keep our Eezi-Awn 1800 around 40-45*F. I really don't need it warmer than that since we have good sleeping bags. It is just a little uncomfortable for the kids breathing air at 15*F. Above freezing, I rarely see myself using a heater. Since it would be occasional use only, I'd prefer something on the less expensive end. But safety comes first, followed by quality, efficiency and ease of deployment/use.
By efficiency I'm talking about both propane consumption and an efficient 12 volt fan.
 

Honu

lost on the mainland
we use a buddy heater ? a dual one but I get up in the morning and crank it about ten minutes later is super toasty warm
I dont camp in freezing weather though ? but it was down in the high 30s at night and morning

I would like to do a built in super cool diesel type or something like that I can mount permanent and run all night

I think the buddy is perfectly safe with our corner of the tent opened up a bit to let more air in and out

I wont go to sleep with it on though ? just cause I am paranoid :) eheheheheh
plus at night its been warm enough in our bags and I dont want to waste the extra fuel ?
 

Hilldweller

SE Expedition Society
We set the Buddy Heater up on a table in the changing room and leave the side windows open a little. 20 degrees outside, 60 degrees inside --- no headaches or nausea yet...

100_1244.jpg
 

Dendy Jarrett

Expedition Portal Admin
Staff member
I used a Heater Buddy when camping with two small children. We left the upper flaps cracked and a lower one cracked. Stayed well above 60 inside and was snowing outside.
We used it all through the night for four days. We are all still alive and kicking.

I was paranoid, but read the claims on their site and it indicates that it is completely safe for this type of thing.

I would however, be interested in a permanent set up. I have the Conqueror Conquest trailer now divided so that I can leave the trailer side that is towards the drop down room open into the room and is insulated against the side that is open for the kitchen and the rear to the Engel.
I would be interested in something that would heat up that trailer box (hopefully causing radiant heating to the floor of the tent above in the sleeping area) and also heat the tent as well.

Even interested in the idea of a low voltage electric heater ... thoughts?

Thanks
Dendy
 

WMac

Adventurer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martyn
The key is to have a CO detector not just a low oxygen sensor.

Let me ask you all this. Would you pay $750-$800 for a highly efficient propane heater?

Yes, quite likely

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martyn
Are you looking for a something less efficient in the $350.00 range?

I'd definitely be interested in this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martyn
Or something less $ with no care to efficiency?

I care about efficiency, but only to an extent. What I really want is a heater that can SAFELY keep our Eezi-Awn 1800 around 40-45*F. I really don't need it warmer than that since we have good sleeping bags. It is just a little uncomfortable for the kids breathing air at 15*F. Above freezing, I rarely see myself using a heater. Since it would be occasional use only, I'd prefer something on the less expensive end. But safety comes first, followed by quality, efficiency and ease of deployment/use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martyn
By efficiency I'm talking about both propane consumption and an efficient 12 volt fan.


Couldnt, and Didnt say it any better myself :iagree:
 

Bergger

Explorer
Let me ask you all this. Would you pay $750-$800 for a highly efficient propane heater?
No.

Are you looking for a something less efficient in the $350.00 range?
No.
Or something less $ with no care to efficiency??
Yes. Even here in Colorado there are only a few occassions where we need a heater so efficiency is not very high on my list. Cost and effectiveness are most important to me.
 

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