Little Upset with Nth Degree…

CapelConcepts

Observer
Wow...after working in the automotive after market it's interesting to see how people think things work. I wouldn't look at paying for a set of rear coils as a problem...btw, did you ask if you could just trade them out for the coils you have? Ordering the coils from the manufacturer most likely isn't a real option...unless you want 5-10 minimum sets, you know all the dimensions (most manufacturers don't know what the coils are for, they just know the specs), you have 6 weeks to wait,......on and on...you get the idea. Personally I would go with the lightest spring rate you "need". Meaning the one that works with your lightest load. It sounds like you need an increased rate no matter what due to the fact it's an LJ, the ARB bumper, and the larger tank. When you figure out that I'd then order an air bag set up to go inside the coils. This set up will give you the optimum ride at all weight levels. Also, if you do the airbags at the same time that you change coils your labor cost will be lower (basically you should get the coils installed for free and just pay for the air bag install, at least that's how I would charge you).

Once again I wouldn't look at this as you doing Nth degrees R&D, most Jeep lift kits are set up with really soft springs to get the maximum flex...not the maximum load capacity.
 

cruiseroutfit

Well-known member
CapelConcepts said:
Wow...after working in the automotive after market it's interesting to see how people think things work. I wouldn't look at paying for a set of rear coils as a problem...btw, did you ask if you could just trade them out for the coils you have? Ordering the coils from the manufacturer most likely isn't a real option...unless you want 5-10 minimum sets, you know all the dimensions (most manufacturers don't know what the coils are for, they just know the specs), you have 6 weeks to wait,......on and on...you get the idea...

My thoughts exactly ;)

Prove me wrong folks, I'd love a list of coil manufactures that I can reasonable call and place an order for a single pair of coils to me specs :eek:rngartis
 

cruiseroutfit

Well-known member
madizell said:
http://www.nationalsprings.com/index.cfm

$275 and up for a pair of custom wound coil springs.

I guess "reasonably" is a relative term (yes I mis-spelled that in my previous post). National seems like a great outfit, but I just called for a quote on a some coils for the front of a Tacoma using some specs I would like, $375-425 for the pair, double/triple the price of commercially available springs. I can get that here in SLC from one of several vendors, again reasonable and comparative being the key words. This is all beside the point.

I don't think one should expect to call a supplier/manufacture of suspension products and have them hand over their sources for parts they are spec'ing and out-sourcing. I assemble kits of different nature, power steering, axle overhauls, etc, my sources and specifications are guarded information. Sure one could easily enough duplicate them or mimic them, but that doesn't mean I have to give the farm away.



As to the original poster, I would work with AEV to purchase a suitable coil. Your out of your warranty period, and its not like the coil was bad, its likely just fine for many applications, add a bumper, extra fuel and the tank weight and you need a different coil.
 

1speed

Explorer
There was a discussion on my Jeep thread about airbags, the link info is in post#9 http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15351.
I just finished a 5200 mile trip with around 250 miles of dirt roads towing my trailer and had no problems. I was loaded pretty heavy considering we lived out of the Jeep and trailer for a little over 2 weeks. I have done some mild to not so mild wheeling, also with no problems.
I've had Firestone airbags on my Dodge 3500 for 75,000 miles with some mild wheeling with no problems.
 

24HOURSOFNEVADA

Expedition Leader
I'd be very surprised if AEV reveals any information to you. I bought one of the first Unlimited's in NV. back in 04. I then promptly called AEV to order one of their "Reworked" Rubicon Express Long arm kits.

Their response was curt to say the least. They cited the fact that they had given RE the lengths required for the long arms "Months ago" and that they would only sell their "Kits" with the purchase of one of their jeeps.

I can see both sides, but like I said I wouldn't hold your breath on them revealing their source for springs.
 

madizell

Explorer
cruiseroutfit said:
[the coils were]... likely just fine for many applications, add a bumper, extra fuel and the tank weight and you need a different coil.

And that's the problem with buying generic application springs from any vendor. They are wound for median needs, not your needs. If you are fortunate enough to be driving the average vehicle the springs were built for, you win. If not, you don't.

When we start building custom rides, we should expect an attendant cost if average isn't good enough. $425 a pair is actually a fair price for custom wound springs built just for your vehicle. You can expect them to fit, to have the correct rate, and exactly the correct length for the application you specify. National won't faint if you race your vehicle, and won't void the warranty. I think the price is fair enough, and it is the same price I paid National per pair for 10-leaf leaf packs for the CJ-7, 5 1/2 years ago. Given that the price of steel has gone way up in the past year or three, I think the price is more than fair if National is holding the line on product price. I also suspect their price is comparable to anyone else who custom winds coils.

Vendors like OME make up the difference in volume sales. If you want to buy 100 pairs of coils, even National is going to give you a volume discount, but you will end up with 100 pairs just alike, even though there are hardly 2 vehicles out there just alike. This is simply an area where you have to decide if paying the premium is worth it to you to have the best going.

Anyway, your post asked only this: "Prove me wrong folks, I'd love a list of coil manufactures that I can reasonable [sic] call and place an order for a single pair of coils to me specs." One name isn't a "list" but it is a start, and I think they will take an order for a single pair of coils built to your specs.
 

cruiseroutfit

Well-known member
madizell said:
And that's the problem with buying generic application springs from any vendor. They are wound for median needs, not your needs. If you are fortunate enough to be driving the average vehicle the springs were built for, you win. If not, you don't.

And thus there are dozens of different commercially available springs for most poplular builds, we are not talking about some obscure vehicle. In this particular instance, AEV has a replacement spring that they feel is up to the load needs of the customer.

madizell said:
...Vendors like OME make up the difference in volume sales. If you want to buy 100 pairs of coils, even National is going to give you a volume discount, but you will end up with 100 pairs just alike, even though there are hardly 2 vehicles out there just alike. This is simply an area where you have to decide if paying the premium is worth it to you to have the best going.

And thats exactly why companies like OME make several different coil options for each vehicle. Take the FJ/FZJ80 for example. 7 different front coil options and 8 different rear coil options. Will it suit 100% of the markets needs, of course not, but 95% of them. For those that need something different is obvious options exist. In this threads case, we've already established that AEV has an off the shelf coil they can supply, yet you've recommended he call them and ask where they get it?? :shakin:

madizell said:
Anyway, your post asked only this: "Prove me wrong folks, I'd love a list of coil manufactures that I can reasonable [sic] call and place an order for a single pair of coils to me specs." One name isn't a "list" but it is a start, and I think they will take an order for a single pair of coils built to your specs.

Reasonably being key. Double/triple retail for an EXISTING product could hardly be called reasonable. Remember the original poster's words:

"updated springs designed and tuned for the LJ and heavier loads. But I have to BUY the new springs and pay for the install"
 

madizell

Explorer
You can reasonably call any supplier. Most of them won't bite just because you gave them a call. That's all you asked for. You didn't specify a reasonable price, and since reasonable is a vague term, especially as applied to the price of a product, the term would have definition only to you as you use it. However, had you requested a list of suppliers who would provide a custom wound coil for the same price as an off the shelf spring from a volume vendor, you would have had no response, and would have been posing an impossible problem to start with.

Custom springs, custom clothes, custom paint, doesn't matter. Made to your specification, you will not find a vendor who supplies what you want at the price you seem to prefer. So, if you know the rates of the springs you need, you can go looking among those who sell springs at volume prices, and perhaps you will find what you need. If you don't know what rate and length you need, you won't know when you find it. If the vendor won't tell you what they offer in terms you can relate to (other than price), again you won't be able to make an informed choice.

Buying springs intended for "heavier" applications isn't good enough. Heavier than what? How much heavier? Are they progressive or single rate? Tight wound or open coil? Such vague descriptions as "heavier" might be good enough for you or for 95% of the market, but I would posit that the readership here does not represent the 95% end of the market. Thus, offering seven or eight different applications is not much help to people with particular needs unless the buyer knows with some certainty what application each offering is made for (and I don't mean just the brand of vehicle), and the seller is willing to disclose the build parameters of their product.

I already suggested that AEV might not be serving their own needs to tell you the build parameters of the spring they offer. If they were customer oriented, they would, in my opinion, because information per se is not hurtful to customers and businessmen. The rate of their replacement springs is not "proprietary" information. They figured out what they need, and so can anyone else. Knowing that they don't make springs means they have to buy them from somewhere, and hopefully not from a Korean supplier. Who knows whether AEV has outsourced springs to their own build specs or simply found a supplier of a spring that meets their needs in some general sense. If they won't say, perhaps there is reason to be a bit skeptical.

There are multiple sources on the internet for determining spring rates, and all you really need to know is the weight born by each axle end, and a little bit about the geometry of your suspension. Once you have a target spring rate in hand, you can go shopping for springs, but I would not buy springs from someone who won't disclose how their spring is rated. It simply negates having determined what it is you need if you buy something based on a wild guess. Buying them from AEV, just because they say their product is "tuned for the LJ and heavier loads", makes no sense to me, especially under the circumstances posed at the beginning of the thread. If the original springs are known to be insufficient, AEV should be willing to swap out the springs at a price convenient to the customer base; certainly not at retail. If they don't want to do that they would be helping their customers and potential future customers by being up front about the differences in the springs so folks can make a choice.
 

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