Long distance, mobile HF communications inside the US.

[xtatik]

If I've mis-interpreted FCC regulations on this matter I'd genuinely like to know how this case is different than the hot air balloon case.

I don't know about your 857d specifically. With the Kenwood D7/D700/D710 series of radios it is one wire. There are some very complicated APRS setups out there, but that isn't necessary if one plans carefully.

Anyway, my intent in posting was to indicate that there are simple ways of doing APRS and that there are good applications for it. As I said in my first post, everyone needs to evaluate every item that goes in their truck and determine if it provides useful enough functionality to warrant packing it. I know I cycle back and forth between simple and complex as I learn how to get the functionality I want w/o packing too much gear. I pack uniquely for each trip based on # of trucks, my role, duration, etc. I fully respect everyone's right to do the same. I just didn't want APRS to be mis-represented as being an overly complex gadgety technology when it doesn't have to be.

Craig

Certain types of digital msg'ing can amount to remote operating, and some can't. Even in allowed types of remote operation such as repeater control, a remote control operator must have the ability to shut down the signal from its origin point within certain amounts of time as prescribed by the FCC.
As for your points regarding other tracking activities, it's all about spectrum. APRS isn't limited to only the amateur bandspread. So, if persons (NOAA, for example) wants to track balloons they can seek licensing to do so from the FCC, but they won't get frequency allocations from inside the already allocated amateur bandspread. Same goes for any parties wanting to track.....well, anything. What is certain, is the device you posted and any other of similar nature designed to function within the amateur frequencies would require licensing in order to transmit. They would also have to abide by the rules established for operation within that bandspread.

The radios you've mentioned are FM units with add'l apps/utiliies for APRS. They are not full multi-mode, multi-band units. They lack HF function, which is the longest distance communication means that would be reasonably carried in our types of vehicles....outside of Satphones. To my knowledge, there are no units of this type currently available, that will easily accomodate an APRS function while also allowing it's normal voice (or CW) functions simultaneously, to do this, you'd need an add'l radio. More cab-mounted coolness....or more big hat, no cattle. I guess you'd have to decide for yourself.

So, my question is simple, why would I want to add an add'l radio that is essentially lesser in overall function, redundant in others with the only exception of having the limited purpose of APRS when operating outside of FM repeater range? Keep in mind, the OP was questioning distance communication as it applies to APRS, and at this point in time, it really doesn't apply.

My point is this: Many here have gone through the trouble of getting their licensing because they would like to have a reliable communication means when in remote areas. The Techniician license is a great starting point for those beginning to venture out. But, as the distances and remoteness increase, so should the distance reach of the radios they rely on. This should make sense, and when "distance" is a component of the question, and it's coming from another amateur, my advice is to knuckle down for the standard amateur license which is the General class. Not only would they have a vastly more powerful communication means....they'd probably spend a lot less money and have less to fuss with in the cab. At that point, if they want to add more stuff to their arsenal.....by all means, buy the big belt buckle as well.

 

[craig]

On our regional APRS mailing list there are numerous folks running the Byonics style self contained tracker in their amateur weather balloons w/o a way to remotely shut it down. I'll ask on there about the legality of doing so. I never meant to indicate that one can use the Byonics device for tracking w/o a license. My understanding that the licensed trail leader could in-fact operate such a device w/ his/her callsign even if it was strapped to another truck 4-5 miles away... like the amateur weather balloon guys do.

I agree completely that a 2m HAM radio is not the ideal tool for communicating from remote locations back to civilizations and believe I said so in my first post. My agreed that a SPOT is better than going with HF APRS. From then on out, I made comments in support of 2m APRS for vehicle to vehicle comm only. This was off-topic of the original posters request but it seemed like APRS was quickly getting a bad rap in this thread regardless of situation. I wanted to try and communicate that it has it's use and that it can be implemented simply.

My preference for gear is 1 SPOT tracker if one needs to communicate back to civilization. 1 dual band 2m radio, like the Kenwood D710a, with built in APRS for vehicle to vehicle communication on the trail. If I were traveling alone and wanted to simplify I'd leave the 2m at home. If I were traveling in a group and wanted to simplify I'd leave the SPOT at home (since I have friends with me in case of emergency).

 

[xtatik]

On our regional APRS mailing list there are numerous folks running the Byonics style self contained tracker in their amateur weather balloons w/o a way to remotely shut it down. I'll ask on there about the legality of doing so. I never meant to indicate that one can use the Byonics device for tracking w/o a license. My understanding that the licensed trail leader could in-fact operate such a device w/ his/her callsign even if it was strapped to another truck 4-5 miles away... like the amateur weather balloon guys do..

FCC rules are pretty explicit regarding station control, control links and limitations on spurious emissions. If one of these units were to suddenly malfunction on a weather balloon and begin transmitting outside its frequency allocation there would be no control link to function in shutting it down. My guess would be they are either using them illegally, re-programming them into areas outside the amateur frequencies or are ordering them to operate on frequencies that have different regulation. I would suggest you not ask friends from within this group, and instead refer to the FCC or ARRL websites for rules concerning regulation within the amateur spectrum.

edit: From their website it appears the "micro-trak" product is the only product using 2m and requiring an amateur license. Perhaps these other tracking activities would utilize their other products....which btw, do not mention a need to have an amateur license.

 

[craig]

I've read the rules and regulations, though I need to read them again before discussing them in detail.

The NWAPRS group is a very large mailing list that coordinates the APRS network in the PNW. They are very interested in all things protocol, legal, etc and it will be a very honest and open debate about the rules/regulations as it applies to this sort of thing. I made a post to the mailing list and am looking forward to the reply.

My sincere apologies to the original poster as I've unintentionally hi-jacked his thread. I hope the info is at least of some interest.

Craig

 

[xtatik]

I wanted to try and communicate that it has it's use and that it can be implemented simply.

I agree on both points. And, I'm not out to bash it, just wanting people to undestand it's limitations for what we do in light of the big picture. I would worry someone might think their trusty 2m radio and APRS would save their hide in say Death Valley, Jarbidge, Puertocitos or, for that matter, the majority of the planet, when HF or a Satphone easily could.

 

[UK4X4]

Note that vehicles with multiple attena's attract a lot of attention in the 3rd world ........ and you will have issues at border crossings if they are noted.

In the middle east even cb radios are banned...........we have to use the convoy method....even on our dirt bikes in the dunes

 

[Mash5]

As the original poster I can say that I for one do not mind the sidetrack. I realize the limitation on VHF (2m) and that is why I started the thread.

2m APRS seems like a cool tool to have. I have done plenty of travel in convoy and find it very annoying. In order for it to work effectively you need to run too close to each other. Off road in the woods necessitates slowing way down for obstacles and even backing up. It works but it's not ideal. Basically everyone needs to run as slow as the slowest guy at any given time. With APRS and 2M you could all be together without being in each other’s way. That said, I don't see too many of the ad hock groups that I often end up with, being set up enough for it to work. This brings us to the Byonics devise. While I don't see being able to supply one to a each rig in a large group, I could see having one to give to the last guy for instance but this seems like a big step back from the "ideal” of each rig having a 2m set up with phone and APRS.

As for the legality... my understanding is that there are three legal modes of operation within the armature spectrum: Local, Remote and Automatic. The latter being defined as follows Automatic control. The use of devices and procedures for control of a station when it is transmitting so that compliance with the FCC Rules is achieved without the control operator being present at a control point. My assumption is that the Byonics devise would qualify under the automatic mode as ether a beacon or auxiliary station. I have never read anywhere that you would need to have the capability to instantly shut down an automatic station ether remotely or directly. If you could I would think it would qualify under one of the other two modes and negate the need for the auto mode to exist. I do not claim to know everything about the rules though so if anyone has more insight I’d love to hear it. I have reposted some of the pertinent regs at the bottom of my post.

Back on subject… As has been pointed out, VHF is not very reliable to get you outside help in an emergency. What I originally was interested in probing with this post is just how reliable and practical is HF for emergency coms and it sounds like it’s the best thing out there. My thinking runs something like this… I have, a few times in my life been in a situation where having two-way communication could have been a life saver. I hold a general license and I would like to be the guy that always has that capability no matter the location. So I’m looking for a reliable and practical HF setup to augment any VHF capability I may have. For me being prepared is part of the fun. In order to focus discussion I’m going to outline a few scenarios I have been involved in where having coms would have been a huge help.

While spelunking in eastern Idaho a friend in our group took a bad step between two rocks and hit his forehead hard enough to knock him out for several seconds and cause severe bleeding. Fortunately we were near the mouth of the cave and not way back in there. We rushed him to the nearest town and ER almost an hour away where in the end he was fine. Had he hit just a bit different, time could have been the factor that determined whether he lived. With better coms we could have had him life-flighted out and had him in the hands of professionals much faster. In this case I do not think 2m would have worked.

While climbing Mt Rainer a group of 10 of my friends, (I was not there) had one of two ropes go over an edge. There were mistakes that were made that caused the rope of 5 guys to all end up falling. Two were injured so badly that they had to be life-flighted out and two more were stabilized on site and carried out. The last walked/limped out with assistance. But to get help, two climbers from the rope that did not fall started climbing back down. They were fortunate enough to meet another group fairly quickly that was better prepared and had a HAM operator in the group. I don’t know what frequency they used but I suspect in this case it was VHF. Not having good coms resulted in the five uninjured guys having to split up and leave the care of the injured to the other three. The lack of coms resulted in further risk having to be taken in order to secure rescue.

While out for a casual afternoon of exploring in the Sierras in late fall. I found the unfamiliar trail increasing difficult. I should have turned back after I broke an axle but I had a spare and installed it and kept going. Later in the day I broke the spare as well leaving my fully locked rig with 3 wheel drive. At some point I realized that I was on the back of the “bowl” at Loon Lake, at the beginning of the Rubicon. On what ended up being the last real obstacle before the pavement I found that I needed that undriven wheel to pull me around and ended up breaking my steering linkage at the pitman arm. As is sadly often the case up there, by nightfall everyone was too inebriated to drive and so we spent an uncomfortable night in the cold. In the morning some very kind soles drove us home and a buddy came back up with me to help me get going. With Coms I could have simply auto patched my buddy the night of the incident and had him bring me the parts I needed. We would have been home in bed by midnight. That day was not a high point in my preparedness log but it sure would have helped to have had the ability to communicate.


From http://www.arrl.org/FandES/field/regulations/news/part97/
§97.3 Definitions.
(6) Automatic control. The use of devices and procedures for control of a station when it is transmitting so that compliance with the FCC Rules is achieved without the control operator being present at a control point.
(30) Local control. The use of a control operator who directly manipulates the operating adjustments in the station to achieve compliance with the FCC Rules.
(38) Remote control. The use of a control operator who indirectly manipulates the operating adjustments in the station through a control link to achieve compliance with the FCC Rules.
§97.105 Control operator duties.
(a) The control operator must ensure the immediate proper operation of the station, regardless of the type of control.
§97.109 Station control.
(a) Each amateur station must have at least one control point.
(b) When a station is being locally controlled, the control operator must be at the control point. Any station may be locally controlled.
(c) When a station is being remotely controlled, the control operator must be at the control point. Any station may be remotely controlled.
(d) When a station is being automatically controlled, the control operator need not be at the control point. Only stations specifically designated elsewhere in this Part may be automatically controlled. Automatic control must cease upon notification by a District Director that the station is transmitting improperly or causing harmful interference to other stations. Automatic control must not be resumed without prior approval of the District Director.
(e) No station may be automatically controlled while transmitting third party communications, except a station transmitting a RTTY or data emission. All messages that are retransmitted must originate at a station that is being locally or remotely controlled.
§97.201 Auxiliary station.
(a) Any amateur station licensed to a holder of a Technician, Technician Plus, General, Advanced or Amateur Extra Class operator license may be an auxiliary station. A holder of a Technician, Technician Plus, General, Advanced or Amateur Extra Class operator license may be the control operator of an auxiliary station, subject to the privileges of the class of operator license held.
(b) An auxiliary station may transmit only on the 2 m and shorter wavelength bands, except the 144.0-144.5 MHz, 145.8-146.0 MHz, 219-220 MHz, 222.00-222.15 MHz, 431-433 MHz, and 435-438 MHz segments.
(c) Where an auxiliary station causes harmful interference to another auxiliary station, the licensees are equally and fully responsible for resolving the interference unless one station's operation is recommended by a frequency coordinator and the other station's is not. In that case, the licensee of the non-coordinated auxiliary station has primary responsibility to resolve the interference.
(d) An auxiliary station may be automatically controlled.
(e) An auxiliary station may transmit one-way communications.
§97.203 Beacon station.
(a) Any amateur station licensed to a holder of a Technician, Technician Plus, General, Advanced or Amateur Extra Class operator license may be a beacon. A holder of a Technician, Technician Plus, General, Advanced or Amateur Extra Class operator license may be the control operator of a beacon, subject to the privileges of the class of operator license held.
(b) A beacon must not concurrently transmit on more than 1 channel in the same amateur service frequency band, from the same station location.
(c) The transmitter power of a beacon must not exceed 100 W.
(d) A beacon may be automatically controlled while it is transmitting on the 28.20-28.30 MHz, 50.06-50.08 MHz, 144.275-144.300 MHz, 222.05-222.06 MHz, or 432.300-432.400 MHz segments, or on the 33 cm and shorter wavelength bands.
(e) Before establishing an automatically controlled beacon in the National Radio Quiet Zone or before changing the transmitting frequency, transmitter power, antenna height or directivity, the station licensee must give written notification thereof to the Interference Office, National Radio Astronomy Observatory, P.O. Box 2, Green Bank, WV 24944.
(1) The notification must include the geographical coordinates of the antenna, antenna ground elevation above mean sea level (AMSL), antenna center of radiation above ground level (AGL), antenna directivity, proposed frequency, type of emission, and transmitter power.
(2) If an objection to the proposed operation is received by the FCC from the National Radio Astronomy Observatory at Green Bank, Pocahontas County, WV, for itself or on behalf of the Naval Research Laboratory at Sugar Grove, Pendleton County, WV, within 20 days from the date of notification, the FCC will consider all aspects of the problem and take whatever action is deemed appropriate.
(f) A beacon must cease transmissions upon notification by a District Director that the station is operating improperly or causing undue interference to other operations. The beacon may not resume transmitting without prior approval of the District Director.
(g) A beacon may transmit one-way communications.

 

[craig]

The NWAPRS group provided a link to their wiki entry outlining why unattended trackers are legal to operate.

http://info.aprs.net/index.php?title=ControlOperator

 

[Mash5]

The NWAPRS group provided a link to their wiki entry outlining why unattended trackers are legal to operate.

http://info.aprs.net/index.php?title=ControlOperator

Thanks Craig, I think that just about puts a cap on the subject.

 

[xtatik]

Thanks Craig, I think that just about puts a cap on the subject.

Which subject? As for the APRS issue....not precisely, but I'll let you know what I've found on the APRS subject...it's clear as mud. Maybe later tonight or this W/end. Busy...out, for now.



I'm back....crazy week!
Ok, here are some links to warm up on. It appears the subject of APRS remote tracking is still being debated on the two main amateur radio web forums.

http://www.eham.net/forums/APRS/2275?page=1

http://forums.qrz.com/showthread.php?t=140498&highlight=aprs+automatic

I hope these links work.
Anyhow, the first thing that should have been noticed after reading the FCC regs posted above by Mashurst (thanks, btw.).... is that there are no allowances for "automatic control" of either "auxiliary" or "beacon" stations at the U.S. national coordinated APRS frequency of 144.390. This leads back to a need to satisfy FCC regulations for either direct or linked control if you were to operate these tracking devices as discussed earlier in the thread. The Byonics site says the item is "frequency agile across the 2m band" or something to that effect. Which means it may be possible to operate it for other functions, perhaps chasing balloons...but, on other frequencies.
I'd assume this means these transmitters, along with the receivers and digipeaters along a balloons expected path (roughly) could be tuned acccordingly and tracking could take place. This would have to take place somewhere on the band where automatic control was allowed.... but, it is clear that automatic control is disallowed at 144.390.

The next thing I'll address, are some of the comments I've received personally from some very experienced hams on the subject. Many of the rules regarding automatic control, which the FCC defines as either having devices or procedures to terminate a transmission, were written to accomodate some longstanding practices in the hobby such as the operation of HF propogation beacons or the directional location finding of transmitters (T-hunting). So, in this instance, we may have some gray areas between the "spirit" of the law and the "black letter" that are being exploited. At least, this is the general concensus. Here's a question from the Extra exam that was brought up in a conversation regarding whether or not placing a transmitter on another persons vehicle amounts to third party traffic. Obviously, a balloon or mountain goat doesn't have "legal capacity" to become a ham...but, your wheelin' buddy or neighbor does.

E1C05 When may an automatically controlled station originate third party communications?
A. Never.
B. Only when transmitting RTTY or data emissions.
C. When specifically agreed upon by the sending and receiving stations.
D. When approved by the National Telecommunication and Information Administration

The answer as Gordon West explains is this: "An example of third party traffic would be messages from one control operator to another ham station control operator on behalf of a close friend or relative who may not have their own ham license. If we read this question correctly, it asks "may an automatically controlled station ORIGINATE third party communications"? The answer is never, because a third party without a ham license may not be designated by the first control operator to assume the control operator function required to ORIGINATE that third party communication."
No question the control operator benefits from being able to track the unattended transmitter, but so does the occupant of the vehicle it's placed upon. Is the control operator then automatically messaging a location on behalf of the vehicles unlicensed occupant? Hmmmm.

 

[xtatik]

bumpty^^^

 

[craig]

Yes, it looks like 144.39 is out of bounds for automatic control. I wouldn't personally use 144.39 for a group of trackers when on the trail anyway but it is a legitimate point to make.
Edit: After reviewing this more carefully, it turns out that an APRS tracker is not classified as a beacon or auxillary station, so these bandwidth restrictions do not apply. I've included more info in my post below.

The second point about automatic stations originating 3rd party communications seems a little misleading. Are you sure the answer is "None"?

From the rulebook posted above...

§97.109 Station control.
(e) No station may be automatically controlled while transmitting third party communications, except a station transmitting a RTTY or data emission.

It would appear that the answer is B. My understanding is that APRS qualifies as a data emission.

 

[AKRover]

I have both a VHF/UHF and an HF setup in the truck.
Yes, you can do APRS on HF with the right equipment. I am also setup to be able to send and receive emails and operate using most digital modes.

So for email I'm guessing you are using Winlink correct? What's the minimal additional equipment other then radio and antenna that is needed to use winlink? Also is it possible to communicate with non-hams using email?

I am interested in this as well as digital but I don't want to add a bunch of additional expensive boxes of electronics. What would be ideal is if it could all be done with an inexpensive netbook or something. Someday I'm going to have to break down and buy a Windows computer or install Windows on my MacBook since most HAM software is Windows.

 

[xtatik]

Yes, it looks like 139.40 is out of bounds for automatic control. I wouldn't personally use 139.40 for a group of trackers when on the trail anyway but it is a legitimate point to make.

The second point about automatic stations originating 3rd party communications seems a little misleading. Are you sure the answer is "None"?

From the rulebook posted above...

§97.109 Station control.
(e) No station may be automatically controlled while transmitting third party communications, except a station transmitting a RTTY or data emission.

It would appear that the answer is B. My understanding is that APRS qualifies as a data emission.

The question you're posing is related, but this specific question has to do with ORIGINATING THIRD-PARTY TRAFFIC, the keyword is ORIGINATE and who may do so, or who has the ability to appoint a non-ham to do so. In your quote above you've left off the key part of the whole rule, it continues to say: "All messages that are retransmitted must originate at a station that is locally or remotely controlled."
The ARRL version of the answer: "Automatically controlled stations may only relay third-party communications as RTTY or data and are never allowed to originate the (third-party) messages. These restrictions are in place to ensure Amateur Radio does not become an extension of the commercial data networks"
A couple of hypothetical questions....If I place these transmitters on a couple of vehicles each having two occupants, none of which are licensed and I turn them on (I'm controlling, if I could?) so that they begin to broadcast their locations , am I originating a data transmission on their behalf? Or, turning the question around a bit to your point earlier...am I simply tracking vehicles where the occupants are of no circumstance, and who are not benefitting from having their location known?
Basically, this is where the balloons and dogs get separated from the humans that might benefit and have capacity to become licensed.

 

[bc_fjc]

So for email I'm guessing you are using Winlink correct? What's the minimal additional equipment other then radio and antenna that is needed to use winlink? Also is it possible to communicate with non-hams using email?

I am interested in this as well as digital but I don't want to add a bunch of additional expensive boxes of electronics. What would be ideal is if it could all be done with an inexpensive netbook or something. Someday I'm going to have to break down and buy a Windows computer or install Windows on my MacBook since most HAM software is Windows.

Minimum equipment required are Radio, Antenna, Interface and Computer. The there are many types of Interfaces and it really depends on what modes modes and bands you would like to use. For VHF/UHF you can get a way with a simple cable that connects your computers sound card to your radio and a software interface or you can simplify the software side by using a TNC. For HF you need to have a TNC capable of using the PACTOR protocol to send and receive emails.

Yes, this is using the Winlink system and Yes, you can send and receive emails with non-ham's but the rules remain the same you can not use it for business.... All the software I know of is PC based but I do know one of my fellow ham's that is using the software on his Intel based Macbook. Winlink.org should have all the info you need...

As with everything the more you wont the more it costs. Digital VHF/UHF can be done for around $50 ~ $500 and HF for about $500 ~$1500. As with everything Ham there is a learning curve to get everything to work together reliably all the time.

I've tried to keep these fairly generic but if you have further questions please let me know.