long winded writeup for on-board-hot-shower system

theksmith

Explorer
i found the original thread from the guy who i think was the first to incorporate a thermostatic mixing valve, it was "unwiredadventures' on this forum. i looked at so many threads on so many forums before doing my setup - i couldn't remember who it was. anyway, just wanted to give credit to him for that awesome idea!
 

overlander

Expedition Leader
Overlander, do you have a writeup of your setup?

K smith, Love the setup, your write-up is by far the clearest one I've found to date, thanks for sharing.

Not yet. I have a wing water tank on the way that needs installed and plummed in, and I intend to install a raw water filtration system down the road, and install a proper mixing valve and shower head once I figure out best location. I have a little ways to go to completion, but at least the exchanger is in.
 

Xterabl

Adventurer
Well this is very nice, and has inspired me to look into this type of a project.
But I have a couple questions:
1. Are you concerned about the engine compartment being too hot for the water hoses you use (clear PVC with nylon braid reinforcement)?
2. You mention your engine runs at 210 degrees; what is the best way to find this out? Is it related to thermostat opening temperature? For my rig (2000 nissan xterra), the thermostat opens at 180*; does that correlate with the operating temperature somehow, to you knowledge?
3. I've found 16 plate heat exchanger, which seems a good compromise between 10 and 20 plate; what do you think?
4. How cold of a temperature does your thermostatic mixing valve permit? Assuming it's cold enough, can't you just forgo the cold water outlet and turn the mixing valve to it's coldest setting for those extra hot days?

Please, anyone else with knowledge, do chime in. And once again, theksmith, thanks for the awesome project and writeup!
 

theksmith

Explorer
Well this is very nice, and has inspired me to look into this type of a project.
But I have a couple questions:
1. Are you concerned about the engine compartment being too hot for the water hoses you use (clear PVC with nylon braid reinforcement)?
2. You mention your engine runs at 210 degrees; what is the best way to find this out? Is it related to thermostat opening temperature? For my rig (2000 nissan xterra), the thermostat opens at 180*; does that correlate with the operating temperature somehow, to you knowledge?
3. I've found 16 plate heat exchanger, which seems a good compromise between 10 and 20 plate; what do you think?
4. How cold of a temperature does your thermostatic mixing valve permit? Assuming it's cold enough, can't you just forgo the cold water outlet and turn the mixing valve to it's coldest setting for those extra hot days?

Please, anyone else with knowledge, do chime in. And once again, theksmith, thanks for the awesome project and writeup!

1 - yes, but i didn't bother to look it up till just now - i am in fact exceeding the service rating of clear PVC which appears to be 120-140* depending on where you look! however the melting point is extremely high, so i don't think it'll burst, maybe just not be drinkable-safe. PEX was recommended to me by the hardware store, but it would be impossible to route in the engine bay. perhaps i should have just used car heater hose. time will tell, obviously i'm no plumber!

2 - my temp gauge reads 210 once the jeep is warmed up, if you don't have an actual gauge, harbor freight sells those no-contact laser thermometers for cheap

3 - on my rig, the 10 plate turned out to be plenty hot, hotter than you could put your hand under. if your rig runs considerably cooler than mine, then maybe you do need a 15/16 plate, but i bet a 10 plate would be ok (though some people want boiling hot water as an option for cooking/cleaning)

4 - if i remember correctly, my mix valve would do a min output of 80*, depending on the difference between the inputs (if the "cold" water is actually pretty warm from sitting on the roof all day, then the min would actually not be that low). 80* is obviously cool to the touch, but because i'm crazy, i wanted the option of having a really cold shower on a hot day (like ice-chest water cold!). that, and the mixing valve is ussually set and left alone in it's native use, so i didn't know if constant adjustment would wear it prematurely in any way... again, i'm no plumber! my plan is it will get adjusted some as the seasons change, but overall not be moved alot.

and as Xterabl said, anyone with knowledge please chime in!
 
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crusader

Adventurer
That's a pretty cool setup.

It sounds as if you've cracked the code on everything and your setup seems to be working pretty well. If you ever find that those 1/4" air line quick disconnects are too small, I might suggest that you check out hydraulic hose quick disconnects. They come in all sorts of sizes, and seal up without backpressure when the mating coupling is removed.

Available wherever hydraulic hoses are made or at places that sell snowplows and parts. Here's the link to the Quick Coupling page for The Parker Store , my local/regional hose place.
 

theksmith

Explorer
That's a pretty cool setup.

It sounds as if you've cracked the code on everything and your setup seems to be working pretty well. If you ever find that those 1/4" air line quick disconnects are too small, I might suggest that you check out hydraulic hose quick disconnects. They come in all sorts of sizes, and seal up without backpressure when the mating coupling is removed.

Available wherever hydraulic hoses are made or at places that sell snowplows and parts. Here's the link to the Quick Coupling page for The Parker Store , my local/regional hose place.

so far the air line couplers are working fine, but those are exactly what i was looking for and couldn't put a name to, thanks for the info!
 

Xterabl

Adventurer
Hey theksmith, thanks for the quick reply and candor. I do have an ir temp gun, but I'm not sure exactly where to point it. The 10 plate is good due to it's smallest size and lowest resistance...but i sure would like the fastest possible warm-up without compromising flow. If it comes to it, maybe i'll do some head calculations once i detail all the resistive losses in the circuit.
Yeah, i think i agree with you..it's probably best to keep the thermo mixer as close to set'n'forget a possible...not exactly a component you want to keep burning through.
I'm working on a sort off graphical schematic right now, maybe i'll post up for feedback when it's done. This sure is a fun project to plan, even if it doesn't make it to reality.
Thanks again!
 

Xterabl

Adventurer
Hey, the-k, any updates? Has been field tested?

Well, if you're interested, i have been looking for high-temp, medium-pressure flex hose for potable water, and so far this seems the best for me:

http://www.tygon.com/uploadedFiles/...bing/PolyurethaneTubing-Tygothane-C544AIB.pdf

http://www.matweb.com/search/datasheettext.aspx?matguid=73e5312c1324404fae0916e8b5f743e7

http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/116/108/=9g0yh6

It's tygothane and rates at 180* F operating temperature, and rates at 110 psi at that temp, with a 2" bend radius for the 1/2" id size. Mcmaster has this size for about 4 bucks a foot.
My only concern is that it could perhaps see above 180* F, depending on it's location in the engine compartment, etc.
 

theksmith

Explorer
Hey, the-k, any updates? Has been field tested?

Well, if you're interested, i have been looking for high-temp, medium-pressure flex hose for potable water, and so far this seems the best for me:

http://www.tygon.com/uploadedFiles/...bing/PolyurethaneTubing-Tygothane-C544AIB.pdf

http://www.matweb.com/search/datasheettext.aspx?matguid=73e5312c1324404fae0916e8b5f743e7

http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/116/108/=9g0yh6

It's tygothane and rates at 180* F operating temperature, and rates at 110 psi at that temp, with a 2" bend radius for the 1/2" id size. Mcmaster has this size for about 4 bucks a foot.
My only concern is that it could perhaps see above 180* F, depending on it's location in the engine compartment, etc.

field tested this past week in utah, one hose popped off the heat exchanger after first person's shower while it was just sitting idle with pressure - put it back on and tightened down hose clamp and everything lasted for 2 more showers without problem. the braided pvc was very soft and that's why the hose clamp was no longer clamping well enough.

i will first just try getting everything up to operating temp again and letting the hose be soft and then tightening down all the clamps. however, that may lead to a hose eventually just bursting... so will probably have to eventually replace the hose with something that can handle the 210* / 45 PSI
 

buckshot500

Observer
Sweet setup!

I have been meaning to do this, but planned on fabbing my own exchanger.

I see now that the plate exchanger is reasonably priced so that will be easier.
 

Xterabl

Adventurer
Ahhhhhhhhhhh, I bet it was nice to have the shower.

Ya know, I've been thinking about the whole hot water thing...during idle times, with water in the lines, it could get REALLY hot just sitting there in the heat exchanger. I think it would be good to have some kind of recirculation, maybe just after the heat exchanger back to the pump input, to slow down the heating when the shower is "off"...and of course purge the lines when no longer in use. But then, with the pump running non-stop for potentially 15 or 20 minutes (depending on how many people are showering), you might run into thermal shutdown issues.
Maybe I'm over-thinking this...but perhaps the right thing to do is to plumb some metal tubing right before and just after the heat exchanger. Not sure if copper is OK (potable) at temps approaching boiling...perhaps stainless steel? Pricey, but it would only be for a couple feet before and after the heat exchanger. Just thinking out loud here.

Anyways, thanks for the update...your continual feedback is appreciated!
 

richmondbob

Adventurer
This would definitely raise eyebrows out on the road. Would be best to have a shower in private - perhaps an outdoor shower cabana?
9069.jpg
 

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