MAN 6x6 camper
- Thread starter haven
- Start date
charlieaarons
Explorer
Emil, what do you think of the Effekta batteries vs. something like my Concord 210Ah AGM batteries? I see they make a 200Ah replacement for the 4D size. Can they be used for starting or just cabin/deep-cycle? I just had to replace my chassis batteries with Odyssey because I had an alternator problem for about 1 year that wore them out just enough to make them unsatisfactory for <-10 C. when I use the preheater.
Regarding cooking, a propane burner uses 5000 btu/hr = 1/4 lb. of propane/hr. If one cooks for 30 min/day and has 2 X 30 lb. tanks, one fill lasts 480 days or 16 months. That's a pretty long time; whereas the 0.7 to 1.0 (Peukert effect) Kw-hr loss on a 10 Kw-h bank using the same power in electricity might require use of the generator, or worse (if no generator), using the main engine to recharge, on a 4 day stay in one spot. In other words, even with propane cooking I spend more time worrying about battery capacity than propane refills.
Charlie
Regarding cooking, a propane burner uses 5000 btu/hr = 1/4 lb. of propane/hr. If one cooks for 30 min/day and has 2 X 30 lb. tanks, one fill lasts 480 days or 16 months. That's a pretty long time; whereas the 0.7 to 1.0 (Peukert effect) Kw-hr loss on a 10 Kw-h bank using the same power in electricity might require use of the generator, or worse (if no generator), using the main engine to recharge, on a 4 day stay in one spot. In other words, even with propane cooking I spend more time worrying about battery capacity than propane refills.
Charlie
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dzzz
™
I think electric heat and AC would be the problem. You would definitely need to install a marine type alternator/regulator or a genset. I think the standard Fuso alternator is only 100 amp. That is small for a big battery bank. P type alternators can usually have the regulator replaced by the $250 Xantrex AVR. (I think that's the name). Xantrec also has a device that will properly charge starting batteries from the deep cycle house batteries.
The less expensive way is to charge the house batteries from a standard alternator/regulator, but monitor the voltage. Then cut off the charge when the house batteries are about 90% full. Solar is perfect for bring the batteries up to 100% slowly. But there does need to be feedback protection when suddenly dropping an alternator load.
With diesel, it's worth avoiding a generator and using engine alternators IMO. Solar and wind match well with a high current alternators, especially for expedition people who move.
Oh, while I'm rambling, ebay Canada is by far the least expensive place I've found to buy Espar diesel heater kits. Both air and water.
As far as induction cooktops, the portable ones have been available in the U.S. for years. These are very nice for campers. I like multi use space, especially counters. It can also be moved outside to cook next to the grill.
The portables are a good way to try induction without cutting a hole in the counter.
egn
Adventurer
The Concorde are certainly much better regarding high current charge/discharge. If it wouldn't be the large price difference, I would have taken the Concorde. I got the Effekta (Chinese production) very cheap for less than 100 €/kWh. The Concorde are here at least 3-4 times more expensive. And the FT type Effekta fitted the space available perfectly.
They are typical deep cycle batteries and used especially for telecommunication/computer backup applications. But they can also deliver a very high current for starting. My 150FT batteries can deliver 1500 A (5 s). But the charging is critical like for all VLRA type batteries and should be temperature compensated.
This all is right, but I didn't want to have a propane installation in my truck for space reasons. And my wife was never happy with propane cooking.
If there would have been another reason to use propane, like the mixed use in the engine (LPG is much cheaper than diesel here), than it may have been an option. But alone for cooking this wasn't worth the effort. The regulations for LPG installation a very strict and you have to do regular inspections.
I am an electrical guy. I have planned and build the electrical system for several motorhomes. If there is a problem I can fix it. :sombrero: And for our other electrical toys like water cooker, toaster, oven with microwave, contact grill, .... we needed the electrical system anyway.
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egn
Adventurer
Just yesterday I saw another electrical device for water heating which may be of interest to people going full electric: the Quooker
With this you have a small reservoir of boiling water available, whenever you like.
Another nice kitchen gadget we own is the Powastation. We have the water heater and the toaster and a docking station that is integrated into kitchen desk. So we don't need any cables for the appliances.
With this you have a small reservoir of boiling water available, whenever you like.
Another nice kitchen gadget we own is the Powastation. We have the water heater and the toaster and a docking station that is integrated into kitchen desk. So we don't need any cables for the appliances.
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egn
Adventurer
charlieaarons
Explorer
Are diesel stoves like Wallas or Webasto as bad at altitude as rumored? Webasto's current offering has a "high" altitude setting but supposedly it's set for 2000m. The Tibetan plateau is 4-5000 m., Altiplano 3500-4000. Can a diesel stove be successfully used at these altitudes? My intuition says no.
Charlie
Charlie
Although LP tanks don't need to be refilled too often, if you had enough solar and/or wind power theoretically you'd never have to "refill" (plug in or run the generator) with an electric system. This would especially be an advantage when traveling to countries with different standards for LP tanks/connectors. An all electric system also makes for a simpler install and doesn't have the danger factor of LP or altitude issues of diesel. I like it! I agree that electric is impractical for cabin heating purposes though.
Here's a nice induction cooktop for American power (110V/60hz):
http://www.summitappliance.com/detail/1020
Looks like this one sells for around $400.
Here's a nice induction cooktop for American power (110V/60hz):
http://www.summitappliance.com/detail/1020
Looks like this one sells for around $400.
egn
Adventurer
Sorry, I misunderstood this first and thought you mean the diesel furnace. I leave the text below, because this is also an issue at high altitudes.
I agree with you regarding the stoves.
Diesel furnace:
--------------
I know from people that where at about 3,100 m that they had no problem with the standard Webasto. You can also install a second diesel pump with a second control unit which uses a reduced amount of diesel corresponding to the available oxygen. I haven't looked into this in detail yet, because there are a few years until we will be at this height.
I personally have also thought about a more general solution for being at such a height. I don't know if it works, but in my opinion it can. I want to install a blower to increase the air pressure in the cabin. The cabin is very air tight if every opening is closed. So at night the comfort may be better.
This can be also used to increase the air pressure at the air inlet of the Webasto. This is something like a turbo. This was one of the reasons why I took the 6x6. This Deutz engine has a turbo and the power loss will be not so large at high altitude.
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egn
Adventurer
If you use direct electric cabin heating for a longer duration away from an power outlet, yes. When a power outlet is available then we always use electric heating. And in winter storage this prevents freezing. And occasionally we use electric heating with energy from the battery when we know that we can recharge soon. This avoids the noise of the diesel furnace. We also sometimes do electrical water heating when we are driving. As the Deutz is air-cooled there is no easy way to use excess heat.
Currently we have no air-condition build into the cabin, and it isn't really necessary because we are used to adapt to the conditions. But for other reasons I will install a air-condition unit that also works as heat-pump. The best units with inverter can make more than 4 kWh heat out of 1 kWh of electricity. This will then be used as backup. Our cabin is highly isolated and the loss is about 50 W per degree C temperature difference. I.E., for temperatures to about 10 C we don't need any extra heating. The energy from fridge, freezer, lights and our bodies is just enough to keep the temperature to about 20 C. At the freezing point outside we need in total about 1.000 W to keep 20 C inside. The head pump would deliver this with a few 100 W. If it sunny and cold, the energy could be easily recharged by PV.
Currently I have no PV installed. But I will install more than 800 W with solar laminates from Unisolar. The 4 mm high solar laminates will fit perfectly onto the roof with the aluminum borders. This laminates have the advantage that they are also very effective if there are clouds at the sky. The gives a more leveled energy curve over the year.
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egn
Adventurer
Thanks, very much.
The driveline is something very special and was used only for a few truck types I know:
- MAN KAT
- Saurer 6/10DM
- Steyr 6/10t
- heavy tow vehicles (more gears)
An image and a description in german you can find at the following Links:
http://www.mmvsgogr.ch/Technik/WSK/WSK_1.htm
http://www.mmvsgogr.ch/Technik/WSK/WSK_2.htm
http://www.mmvsgogr.ch/Technik/WSK/Bed_WSK_1.htm
Some of the advantages are:
- The torque converter allows a wearless start of driving, even at very heavy conditions (use for heavy transports).
- There is no wear of the clutch because it is only used to shift gears.
- Because of the torque converter you have much less gear shifts.
- The torque converter increases the torque of the engine with a maximum factor of 2.5.
- You can keep the engine in its optimum rpm range for maximum torque.
- You can control the truck for maneuver alone with the break pedal.
- Its impossible to stall the engine.
Effectively it is like with a automatic transmission. The only difference is that you have to shift the gear manually.
As the torque converter provides a kind of gear less transmission, 6-speed transmission is ok. After changing the transmission to reduce rpm at high speed, sometimes I wish som more gears in between the higher gears if I go up a hill. But the Deutz with a maximum rpm of about 2700, can compensate fairly well. I have just to shift down before the hill to go up with maximum power at 2500 rpm.
This driveline is easy to use offroad, because you can concentrate on the road and don't have to think much about shifting. If the engine is about to stall, the torque converter clutch automatically opens and the torque converter kicks in. After that the engine rpm goes up automatically to get maximum torque in the range of 1500-2000 rpm. The only point you have to keep an eye on is the transmisson oil temperature. So it makes no sense to drive extended periods of time on the torque converter. The gear selected should match the average speed you want to go offroad. The torque converter then kicks in when necessary.
This solution was selected by the Bundeswehr in order to allow even inexperienced drivers to drive a truck. Most drivers are only 12-15 month in the army.
If you view the videos on http://www.youtube.com about "MAN KAT", you hear when the torque converter kicks in. To optimize, some have modified the parameters for an automatic kickin at higher rpm. But there is also a kick-down like for automatic transmissions.
The driveline is something very special and was used only for a few truck types I know:
- MAN KAT
- Saurer 6/10DM
- Steyr 6/10t
- heavy tow vehicles (more gears)
An image and a description in german you can find at the following Links:
http://www.mmvsgogr.ch/Technik/WSK/WSK_1.htm
http://www.mmvsgogr.ch/Technik/WSK/WSK_2.htm
http://www.mmvsgogr.ch/Technik/WSK/Bed_WSK_1.htm
Some of the advantages are:
- The torque converter allows a wearless start of driving, even at very heavy conditions (use for heavy transports).
- There is no wear of the clutch because it is only used to shift gears.
- Because of the torque converter you have much less gear shifts.
- The torque converter increases the torque of the engine with a maximum factor of 2.5.
- You can keep the engine in its optimum rpm range for maximum torque.
- You can control the truck for maneuver alone with the break pedal.
- Its impossible to stall the engine.
Effectively it is like with a automatic transmission. The only difference is that you have to shift the gear manually.
As the torque converter provides a kind of gear less transmission, 6-speed transmission is ok. After changing the transmission to reduce rpm at high speed, sometimes I wish som more gears in between the higher gears if I go up a hill. But the Deutz with a maximum rpm of about 2700, can compensate fairly well. I have just to shift down before the hill to go up with maximum power at 2500 rpm.
This driveline is easy to use offroad, because you can concentrate on the road and don't have to think much about shifting. If the engine is about to stall, the torque converter clutch automatically opens and the torque converter kicks in. After that the engine rpm goes up automatically to get maximum torque in the range of 1500-2000 rpm. The only point you have to keep an eye on is the transmisson oil temperature. So it makes no sense to drive extended periods of time on the torque converter. The gear selected should match the average speed you want to go offroad. The torque converter then kicks in when necessary.
This solution was selected by the Bundeswehr in order to allow even inexperienced drivers to drive a truck. Most drivers are only 12-15 month in the army.
If you view the videos on http://www.youtube.com about "MAN KAT", you hear when the torque converter kicks in. To optimize, some have modified the parameters for an automatic kickin at higher rpm. But there is also a kick-down like for automatic transmissions.
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Hi Egn
Im really interested in your windows. i have a few questions on them, if yoou don't mind.
It looks like the are all glas, and have build-in flyscreens/curtains?
Who makes them, and whats the cost?
Are they heavy?
We are building an off-road camper on an old Volvo TGB13 chassis and making the camper box ourselves. Initially we are planning on using Seitz/Dometic window beacuse they are light and have flyscreens build in to them. Some argue that acrylic may not be the strongest material, but it is really hard to break since it flexes instead.
I would like your view on it.
Thanks,
Christian
Im really interested in your windows. i have a few questions on them, if yoou don't mind.
It looks like the are all glas, and have build-in flyscreens/curtains?
Who makes them, and whats the cost?
Are they heavy?
We are building an off-road camper on an old Volvo TGB13 chassis and making the camper box ourselves. Initially we are planning on using Seitz/Dometic window beacuse they are light and have flyscreens build in to them. Some argue that acrylic may not be the strongest material, but it is really hard to break since it flexes instead.
I would like your view on it.
Thanks,
Christian
egn
Adventurer
Yes, they are made out of security glas. The flyscreen/curtain is a separate part that is mounted inside onto the frame.
They are made by Achim Krumm from http://www.kctechnik.de . He started this business just a few years ago and now delivers his windows to most of the top names in the expo vehicle business. The cost is about 1000 € per window, plus costs for the curtain/flyscreen. This seems to be expensive, but you get what you pay for. And the quality is really top, otherwise the top builders wouldn't use them.
I don't know the weight. I helped him to mount the inner frame and I think it is 10-15 kg.
The Seitz/Dometic windows itself are hard to break, but the mounting can break and it is easy to get scratches from tree branches.
In contrast the real glass window from Achim are very rigid.
If that isn't enough for shipping you can add an additional steel plate.
Give Achim a call or send him an Email. He will tell you the details. Give him a greeting from me.