Modifications/preventive measures for 12+ day desert expedition...?

[dwh]

Also, though more, "Mog oriented", Bill Caid's trip reports of many expeditions to Mexico's Alter desert are also full of priceless (well, THEY paid the price, we didn't) info:

http://www.billcaid.com/2000/AltarDesert2000/TripReport.html
http://www.billcaid.com/2002/AltarDesert2002/Altar2002TripReport.html
http://www.billcaid.com/2004/AltarDesert2004/Altar2004TripReport.html
http://www.billcaid.com/2007/AltarDesert2007/SanIgnacio.html
http://www.billcaid.com/2009/AltarDesert200901/TripMain.html

 

[AEsco48]

One of the members here, "maxingout", has posted some truly excellent articles for desert rats and would be desert rats.


Expeditionary Sandbook - Don't Do Stupid Things is a MUST READ:
http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/63335-Expeditionary-Sandbook-Don-t-Do-Stupid-Things


His article on his web site covering desert navigation is another must read:
http://outbackandbeyond.com/Expeditionary_Handbook.htm


His trip reports are also very much worth reading - especially for the OP, the ones covering Arabia should be invaluable:
http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/search.php?searchid=368109

THANKS!! Reading them now... the last link in this post is not working... Where was it to?

 

[Jorsn]

I think its essential that at least one or two of the rigs have one of these...

http://www.rebeloffroad.com/product_p/hds5m.htm

 

[AEsco48]

I think its essential that at least one or two of the rigs have one of these...

http://www.rebeloffroad.com/product_p/hds5m.htm

Hmm... Not to familiar with these on land or water... But would would I need detailed map data or would it be to plot/chart where we go?

How would it be better then say a Garmin Oregon 550?


The guide(s) have done the trip several times... So its not really exploring for them... They know the path and have GPS as back up... One of them does have a big GPS like that but I dont know if its just old or what lol...

Thanks!

 

[JPK]

I have a Long Ranger 18 gal auxilliary tank in my JKU. Install is simple for a stock 3.8 (they make diesel versions too.) The tank fits on the opposite side of the rear drive shaft than the oem tank. It works great. Here is a link: http://www.thelongranger.com.au/jklongrangefueltank.html

Take a look at the AEV 10 gal tank. Mounted outside of the vehicle, no fumes or safety issues. Does require an AEV tire carrier though, but that isn't all bad since the tire carrier has a built in shovel mount and very soon to be available High-Lift and Pull Pal mounts (which can be ordered now from Quadratec.) There is a thread on this tank on page 1 of this forum. Also, AEV rear bumper, which isn't required for the 10 gal tank, carries ~7.5 gals of water, a nice reserve to have.

Between a Genright or Long Ranger auxilliary tank and the AEV 10 gal tank you have 1/3 of your required 150gals of fuel.

If you do go with that 100gal tank strapped into the Jeep, you will need a LONG syphon hose and a method of raising the hose. The bottom of that 100gal tank will be far below the Jeep's fuel fill.

A winch on at least one of the Jeeps or truck would be beyond wise. What might take hours and then require numerous repeat performances with a shovel can take minutes with a winch. You are fighting time. maybe your fuel burn is zero or near zero when you're sunk up to the axles or frame, but your water use either doesn't change or increases due to the shoveling effort.

A High-Lift and a ~20"x20" piece of 3/4" plywood as a sand base would be on my list, along with either the "official" High-Lift accessories to 1.) lift the frame if your bumpers are not set up for High-Lift use and, 2.) to lift tires rather than frame or the "unofficial" accessories (For example, a strong ratchet strap can often be used to provide a frame lift point and sometime to lift a tire is there is roome enough between spokes - but nothing is safer than the proper accessorries.)

Some sort of sand mats or trax would also be on my list. There are some light weight relatively inexpensive options available. I saw a set in Moab just a couple of weeks ago that would be perfect, I'll try to recall the brand.

A good tire repair kit would be on my list, along with a good air pump per vehicle. Read up on re-seating tire beads with a bit of gasoline, just in case. Rather than one extra spare per vehicle, maybe one extra spare between the two veicles. Then add some tubes and a tube patch kit or two as well. You can run tubes in tubeless tires and tubes patch easily. Maybe a better option than a +50lb extra spare per Jeep.

In another thread you ask about mounting a second spare tire. Since you are removing the rear seat I would suggest as a possibility one of those rear racks which span the rear cargo area. Then you could mount the tire on top or below and still have use of a significant portion of the cargo area.

Also, I have seen a rear receiver mounted rack that has an 8" rise. I think Warrior Products offers it. With that rack, which with the rise mounts high enough to not be a hinderance in most situations off road, you could mount the extra spare there plus fuel or water cans, tool boxes, etc.

BTW, I would have for my own use sufficient maps and navigation equipment to do my own navigating. I would als have a worse case departure/escape route planned if there is one. For example, "If all navigation equipment is shot and we are on X leg of the trip with XXX miles driven and Y amount of fuel we can turn and head (say) east and drive until we hit road Z ...."

JPK

 

[Dan Grec]

A good tire repair kit would be on my list, along with a good air pump per vehicle. Read up on re-seating tire beads with a bit of gasoline, just in case. Rather than one extra spare per vehicle, maybe one extra spare between the two veicles. Then add some tubes and a tube patch kit or two as well. You can run tubes in tubeless tires and tubes patch easily.
JPK

Hey JPK,

You seem really knowledgeable about this, maybe you can answer my question.

I've often wondered if there is a way to get a tire off and back on the rim myself in the field for repairs?
Thanks,
-Dan

 

[JPK]

Yes, it can be done. Its a heck of a lot easier with an air tank on your Jeep or with a tube tire though since the bead can seat with inflation of the tube. A Budd style split rim wheel, still popular in some places, is better yet for seating the bead. Budd rims require tubes, btw, and have become uncommon in the US even for heavy trucks. Tubless tire beads must be set before the tire will hold air, if the beads are not set then air will just flow around the bead.



There is little reason to completely remove a tire from a wheel for repair though. If the tire is repairable it can almost always be done on the rim, or at least one bead still on the wheel. A tube can sometimes be installed with both beads on the wheel, depending on the shape of the wheel, but often its required, or is easier with, one bead off to install a tube.



A set of tire irons and some patience and muscle will remove or replace a tire. Two sets of tire irons can make things go quicker and easier - and so can another set of hands and feet. If required, it can be done with a crowbar with a flat end and a good size screw driver. If you've ever changed a bike tire or replaced a tube in a bike tire, its the same thing on a much greater scale.



Typically, in a tires shop, tires are installed and removed with a machine that duplicates what you would do manually with tire irons. What takes moments in the shop with the machine takes time and real effort manually. Some water or, better, some soapy water or WD40, oil, any lubricant, makes removing or installing a bead over a wheel rim a heck of a lot easier. The tire beads are set with a blast of high pressure air. Available in the field from an air tank if your tank and pump are high enough pressure.



But a bead can be set in an "emergency" with a few onces of gasoline. You "pour" the few onces in the tire after both beads are on the wheel and then light the gas. The explosion sets the beads. Obviously, this option is fret with danger. Fire, too much gas and KPOW, etc, etc, etc. I have done this only once, and it was successful, but not something to do unless you need to. There are some videos on the web of how to do it, with the process being done in the video. I have also seen it done with a spray of "car start" ether. Same idea as the gas, spray some in and light it. The explosion sets the bead. I suspect that some other flamible sprays would work too, think McGuiver or Bond and their hiarspray or whatever blow torches.



A good tire repair kit will fix most tire leaks, since they are typically in the tread area, often finding the leak is the challenge. A good tire repair kit can also fix some "unfixable" sidewall tears - for getting to where you can replace the tire. I haven't had to do this but one tire repair kit company - I think Safetey Seal - has video or pamphlet on how to do it.




Here's hoping no one has to remove a tire in the field!



JPK

 

[JPK]

Something I forgot to add to my earlier post: If your Jeep is an auto then you NEED a transmission oil cooler!

 

[AEsco48]

JPK...

Nice find with those tanks! Any idea who much they run?

As long at the out end of the siphone hose is lower then the in side it will work. On weekend trips I put 4 Gerry cans in the trunk and transfer the fuel via the house.... If I park on a side inclune I can get almost all the fuel out of the Gerry if not at the end of the trip I have about half a Gerry can split between the 4 tanks from the siphon hose not getting it all out...

I agree, the winch would be great, problem is the cost... Buy new bumper and winch in the states and then pay shipping and play the lottery with customs and sales tax when it arrives in Egypt... usually ends up being at least a 66% tax! Then again its always more than one Jeep and we always have a few long snatch straps...

Yea a Hilift would be be nice... Will look in to getting one and where to mount it. For now I carry a big piece of wood and the factory jack... Already bent the hook, need to figure out a fix for that!
You think I could mount a Hilift to the roof?

Def looking at getting a set of tire levers and a tire repair kit that has patches and wire to sew a gash!
How reliable is the tube inside the tire trick. I heard a story of a guy here who put tubes inside all his tires and from what they said the steel bet of the tires caused the tubes to pop, and when they popped it exploded the tire itself. I dont know if he aired down a lot or what to cause the steel belt to pop the tubes... Sounds weird to me but on one trip he popped all 4 tires. Lucky for him there was 10+ Jeeps and he was able to get enough tires lent to him to get him home (was a 4 day trip).

Yup always have a head in that direction plan!

 

[Metcalf]

A few things.....

Carrying that much fuel is not practical on or in the vehicle. That much weight WILL cause problems. You need to look at other options. A trailer might be the best option. You could also pre-position fuel at a location, perhaps turning the trip into a multi-stage trip.

In general. When carrying fuel inside the vehicle, you wan the weight as forward as possible. You also want the weight as removable as possible. Its VERY easy to get stuck enough in soft sand that you WILL want to be able to remove everything possible from the vehicle to help with extraction.

If you have additional tanks installed on the vehicle, you are stuck with the weight on the vehicle until they are empty....and then you still can't remove the container weight for the most part.

You should look into a 'wheel jack' of some kind. This allows you to quickly lift the vehicle at the wheel to insert a sand mat.

Make SURE you have some kind of on-board air supply. Tire pressure will often need to be adjusted for different sand conditions and speeds. Being able to set a bead is also a good skill to have.

I don't know if the multiple spare tire thing is worth the extra weight. Personally I would try and eliminate all the extra weight I could in the sand. I would practice mounting and dismounting tires from the rims AND learn how to repair a puncture. This could save you well over 100lbs on the vehicle. If you have multiple vehicles that share the same tire/wheel size....you already have multiple spares if something where to go VERY wrong.

Water. Carry more. Research where you might be able to find more along your route. Also, if you have a fuel stop orgainized....add water into that stash of gear.

If the vehicles are automatics. Get the largest transmission cooler you can. You might also think about having a extra-capacity pan installed on the transmission if possible.

Keep the vehicles as light as practical.

Keep the vehicles weight biased to the front slightly if at all possible.

Take a full size long handled shovel. They are worth there weight in gold in the desert.

 

[AEsco48]

Something I forgot to add to my earlier post: If your Jeep is an auto then you NEED a transmission oil cooler!

Has a factory oil cooler for the trans The one good thing about it over the US JKU...

 

[JPK]

I see you have (very nice) sand mats, great.

A High-Lift or other brand of "farm" or "shepard's" jack can be wire tied or ratchet strapped to the roll bars. Until the AEV mount that will fit my rear tire carrier comes out mine is wire tied with five 175lb HD wire ties to the back/bottom of the roll bar just forward of the cargo area. I think it might fit strapped to the front bumper parrallel to the ground as well. If you instal a temporary plywood cargo area cap it could bolt there as well.

Issues with the factory jack include the fact that it is designed to lift the axle on the side which has a flat tire. If you're stuck you probably can't get under the axle to position the jack without a lot of digging. A High-Lift with proper accessories or field expedient "accessories" can lift the frame or the tire without little or no digging.

As far as running tubes in tubeless tires, I have had great success. I ran tubes in the tubeless tires (try getting tube tires here!) on my real wire wheel equipped Jaguar E Type. I ran well over 100mph frequently and at times for extended periods. No problems. Tube life was good at maybe 1/2 of tire life, iirc. Tubes can be reletively easily patched as well. Check out the valve stem for compatibility with the wheel. Half of my tube leaks came from the wear around the valve stem.

On the syphon, the critical distance is actually the length of the tube as it drops from the pinicle of the syphon tube to its outlet end in the fill vs. the length of the tube as it rises from its inlet end in the tank to the pinicle. It is the weight of the fuel (or other liquid) in the dropping side of the tube which creates the vacum which draws fuel into the inlet side of the syphon and up to the pinacle of the syphon tube. So, you can actually syphon fuel from equal height containers or even from a lower container to a taller container if the dropping side is long enough. I envision your in Jeep tank sitting where the rear seat would be. The bottom of the tank will be lower than the depth in the fill to which you can insert the outlet end of the syphon tube.

As others have written, the tag along dedicated fuel truck or a trailer are better options for the fuel.

JPK
The tale of a tubeless tire blowing up because a tube blew is hokey BS. The tire already contains the tube and all of the compressed air within it. Poke a hole in the tube and the air migrates to the tire. Viola - you have a tubeless tire containing air and rubber scraps. No big deal.

 

[AEsco48]

I was not able to understand anything in your Siphon and i am Engineer.... Are you saying you can transfer fluid from a lower container where the level of fluid is lower then the bottom of another container if the length of tube is long enough from the apex of the tube to the end of the tube in the upper container?

Yea the tube tire explosion does not make sense to me either... But i verified and they said all 4 tires got destroyed... and I am pretty sure it was not from driving them while they were flat.