Mud is pollution

Mike S

Sponsor - AutoHomeUSA
It appears that you have not read all of this thread or all of my posts. For example, I cite the case of the passenger pigeon. Wiped out exclusively through hunting - from abundance to instinct.

JPK

I think you need to do a little more reading. Perhaps a lot more. Wildlife population fluctuations are almost never attributable to a exclusive single factor. In your passenger pigeon example, for instance, the popular teaching is that hunting wiped these out. I suggest that the wholesale fragmentation and deforestation of the hardwood forests (the feeding and nesting areas supporting the PP) in the eastern US is a major contributing cause. Remember that the PP population crashed at exactly to same time that rapid expansion of settlement and attendant large scale development of agriculture happened in major areas of PP habitat.
 

paulj

Expedition Leader
...
2) Again I am not going to go through all 850 references presented here, but lets look at the first 20 or so. Of those 7 are in Energy and Environment, which is a trade magazine for the energy industry and is not listed in Web of Science, PubMed or Scopus. ...

It is probably wrong to say E&E is a trade magazine of the energy industry. It is on the border line between trade journal and academic, but by and large its content is determined by the choices of its principal editor, Sonja Boehmer-Christiansen. It is the journal of choice for climate skeptics.
 

Rando

Explorer
You could argue the point either way. It is not listed in the mainstream scientific journal databases such as ISI/Web of Science and PubMed. It is in SCOPUS, and they classify it as a trade journal not a scientific journal however I do stand corrected that it is not necessarily a energy industry trade journal. I have certainly never been asked to review a paper for E&E and as far as I know none of my colleagues who are active in climate science have either.

I guess it is akin to the Journal of Creation, which touts itself as a peer reviewed scientific journal. Good luck getting anything about modern geology or evolutionary biology published in this.


It is probably wrong to say E&E is a trade magazine of the energy industry. It is on the border line between trade journal and academic, but by and large its content is determined by the choices of its principal editor, Sonja Boehmer-Christiansen. It is the journal of choice for climate skeptics.
 
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flywgn

Explorer
Make sure I quote this properly so i do not get flamed for not quoting lol ....

Sorry, John. I shouldn't have made my comment look like harsh criticism. I meant it only to clearly identify the source of that description of "scientific dishonesty". When I read your comment that particular section struck a familiar chord in the recesses of my brain. Then I remembered it! Babbage was practically required reading for us spook-types (especially those connected with No Such Agency) in the '50s, so I made the connection.

In any event, I apologize for my abrupt reply. It wasn't a 'flame'.

With regard to this thread, wow! I have a lot of reading to do this evening. I'll print the thread and read it in front of a nice fire after dinner. There's some good stuff here.

.... I honestly believe there is a solution but I alone am not smart enough to design/ create/ test anything, well maybe testing would be right up my alley.

I agree. I'm optimistic and think that equitable solutions can be found.

I just finished re-reading Bud Moore's book, The Lochsa Story: Land Ethics in the Bitterroot Mountains (1996, Mountain Press). This is a good account written by a former career USFS ranger. He details the coming of Europeans into this tributary of the Clearwater drainage, the management policies of the USFS, and the consequences of decisions made.

Manmade silting damages (mid 1950s) in the Crooked Fork and Squaw Creek areas for managed logging purposes are still not completely healed.

This river, the Lochsa, has been a favorite area of mine (see avatar and forum name for hint as to 'why') for years and I was surprised on our first trip down it in 1967 to learn that the road had been paved for only five years. During subsequent visits we've paid special attention to the 'healing' of the wounds, and though the progress has been slow it is progress.

A great educator once said, "You can't build roads to get away from people." (Paul Squibb, 1964) I'm aware of that. As much as we enjoy getting off the beaten paths onto tracks that take us deeper into wilderness I realize that some of those tracks may have to be closed to vehicular travel. Fortunately, my wife and I are still able to hike, so we're not among those of the "300 feet from the car" category.

Moore remained optimistic (died last fall) with the thought that if we are to be good stewards of the land and the wilderness that is remaining we have to learn from our mistakes—and he takes time to point out those he made—and find better methods of sustaining our natural resources.


To some the silting of a stream in order to harvest a product is a minimal cost and one they are willing to take, but I find it difficult to ignore the interconnection of everything in nature, including humans. Perhaps especially humans since we are the primary source of decisions that effect nature's degradation.


I'm not just a fly-fisher. The fact that I chase after fish with artificial insects may be only a coincidence that I love the places trout, char, salmon, pike, and other species choose to inhabit. After a long hike last year into an alpine lake in the Bitterroots I didn't even cast a fly.


Anyway, I'm looking forward to reading this thread and following up on some of the 'outside' reading.


Allen R
 

john101477

Photographer in the Wild
No Harm no foul Allen.
Like you I have found that less pavement is good for me so to speak lol. I actually get a little perturbed when i see someone coming at me from the other end. For me the less traveled a road or path is the more it draws me to it. To top it off I am a very skeptical of anyone that says it is 100% one way or the other. even reading through this thread the on topic parts are mostly a he said she said with small tid bits of fact for both sides. Siltation - Nature vs Human induced. yeah there is no doubt that with the current regulations, Disturbances of water quality and habitat happen, but these things also happen naturally so where do we draw the line?
One reason I tend to lean right so to speak, is that once property is closed off it stays that way. giving up opportunity for a few years is one thing but it seems that once we loose an area we never get it back.
 

JPK

Explorer
I think you need to do a little more reading. Perhaps a lot more. Wildlife population fluctuations are almost never attributable to a exclusive single factor. In your passenger pigeon example, for instance, the popular teaching is that hunting wiped these out. I suggest that the wholesale fragmentation and deforestation of the hardwood forests (the feeding and nesting areas supporting the PP) in the eastern US is a major contributing cause. Remember that the PP population crashed at exactly to same time that rapid expansion of settlement and attendant large scale development of agriculture happened in major areas of PP habitat.

I have done my reading. Fluctuating widlife numbers may have several or many factors, but plummeting stocks not so many. And in every instance that I cited overhunting or overfishing were the leading cause. In almost every instance that I cited temporary hunting or "kill" fishing closures brought back stocks as well. When a hunting or "kill" fishing closure results in rapidly rebounding stocks it is very strong indication, even patently obvious, that the leading cause of the plummetting population was too much take.

Now for the passenger pigeon, please read this:
"The notable decrease of passenger pigeons started when professional hunters began netting and shooting the birds to sell in the city markets. Although the birds always had been used as food to some extent, even by the Indians, the real slaughter began in the 1800s.

There were no laws restricting the number of pigeons killed or the way they were taken. Because the birds were communal in habit, they were easily netted by using baited traps and decoys. The birds were shot at the nesting sites, young squabs were knocked out of nests with long sticks, and pots of burning sulphur were placed under the roosting trees so the fumes would daze the birds and they would fall to the ground. Hundreds of thousands of passenger pigeons were killed for private consumption and for sale on the market, where they often sold for as little as fifty cents a dozen.

By 1850 the destruction of the pigeons was in full force, and by 1860 it was noticed that the numbers of birds seemed to be decreasing, but still the slaughter continued.

One of the last large nestings of passenger pigeons occurred at Petoskey, Michigan, in.1878. Here 50,000 birds per day were killed and this rate continued for nearly five months. When the adult birds that survived this massacre attempted second nestings at new sites, they were soon located by the professional hunters and killed before they had a chance to raise any young.

The concerned voices of conservationists had little effect in stopping the slaughter. Finally a bill was passed in the Michigan legislature making it illegal to net pigeons within two miles of a nesting area, but the law was weakly enforced and few arrests were made for violations.

By the early 1890s the passenger pigeon had almost completely disappeared. It was now too late to protect them by passing laws. In 1897 a bill was introduced in the Michigan legislature asking for a ten-year closed season on passenger pigeons. This was a completely futile gesture as the birds still surviving, as lone individuals, were too few to reestablish the species."

The quote is from the Smithsoneon Museum. The article discusses changing land uses and deforestation, as it should, but goes on to point out that numbers of passenger pigeon didn't begin to plummet until market hunting began in earnest. Essentially, the article mirrors most. http://www.si.edu/encyclopedia_Si/nmnh/passpig.htm

Or another:
"The real onslaught began with the onset of large-scale commercial hunting carried out by well-organised trappers and shippers in order to supply the developing cities on the east coast of the United States with a cheap source of meat. It began once railways linking the Great Lakes area with New York opened in the early 1850s. By 1855 300,000 pigeons a year were being sent to New York alone. The worst of the mass slaughter took place in the 1800s and 1870s. The scale of the operation can be judged by figures that seem almost incredible but which were carefully recorded as part of a perfectly legal and highly profitable commerce. On just one day in 1860 (23 July) 235,200 birds were sent east from Grand Rapids in Michigan. During 1874 Oceana County in Michigan sent over 1,000,000 birds to the markets in the east and two years later was sending 400,000 a week at the height of the season and a total of 1,600,000 in the year. In 1869, Van Buren County, also in Michigan, sent 7,500,000 birds to the east. Even in 1880, when numbers had already been severely reduced, 527,000 birds were shipped east from Michigan."

JPK
 
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paulj

Expedition Leader
Note that even paved highways are subject to regulations on how they affect rivers and fish. Here's a Washington highway (north of Darrington) that will be moved away from the river, to reduce ongoing maintenance costs and harm to fish by those maintenance actions (i.e. repairing and armoring flood damaged sections puts silt in the river and otherwise alters its flow)

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/projects/sr530/saukriverrealignroadway/

Undersized culverts is another highway difficiency that WSDOT has been addressing
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Environment/Biology/FP/fishpassage.htm
 

Mike S

Sponsor - AutoHomeUSA
JPK --

I am well aware of the history and extinction of the PP. Killing adult birds was certainly a big factor - but it was not the EXCLUSIVE factor, as you posted. The combination of unrestricted hunting and fragmentation and destruction of significant breeding/rearing and feeding habitat played a significant role in the demise of the PP.
 

paulj

Expedition Leader
....
The concerned voices of conservationists had little effect in stopping the slaughter. Finally a bill was passed in the Michigan legislature making it illegal to net pigeons within two miles of a nesting area, but the law was weakly enforced and few arrests were made for violations.
....

so futile attempt was made to protect the birds at the nesting sites, which in the case of many birds is when they are most vulnerable. Even more so, kill birds while nesting wipes out the next generation.

Now many off shore nesting sites are off limits to humans.

Few humans take salmon at their spawning grounds, if for not other reason than that the fish are already exhausted and dying at that point. But access to those grounds remains critical, as is the survival of the eggs and fry in the next growing season. Depending on species the fry may spend up to 3 yrs in freshwater.

http://www.ecy.wa.gov/programs/sea/pugetsound/species/salmon_cyc.html

The 1850s was the time when full scaling logging in the PNW began, with a rush to meet the lumber demand in gold rush California. I was reading in an online book on salmon, that lumber mills just dumped their tons of sawdust into the streams, which washed on down to estuaries. In places is was so thick that it got into the gills of young salmon, soon killing them. One passing boat encountered a plume of sawdust and logging debris 30 miles off the Columbia River mouth shortly after a storm.

Seems to have been an era when it was ok to do whatever you could to get ahead and make your fortune. The wilderness was there to be conquered and used.
 
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JPK

Explorer
JPK --

I am well aware of the history and extinction of the PP. Killing adult birds was certainly a big factor - but it was not the EXCLUSIVE factor, as you posted. The combination of unrestricted hunting and fragmentation and destruction of significant breeding/rearing and feeding habitat played a significant role in the demise of the PP.

I never said hunting was the exclusive factor in stock declines, only the exclusive factor in extirpation.

Try reading the Simthsonean article, it discusses the bird's adaptive behavior in the face of loss of large-tract habitat. Had the hunting been eliminated or sufficiently restricted the bird wouldn't be extinct, though numbers probably wouldn't match historical, pre-timbering level. (But then you never know, numbers may have bloomed as the birds adapted, like turkey, morning dove or whitetail deer numbers. More now than when Lief Erricson got lost.)

As far as removing young or adults from a population, the results are the same, remove too many and the stock collapses. The young are the next breeding generation, the adults are the current breeding generation. Its a bit of an oversimplification, but really, remove too many of one or the other, or in combination, and the only difference is time.

JPK
 
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Glorybigs

Adventurer
Regardless shoudn't we try to error using the precautionary principle?

No, America was not built by adhering to a bunch of precautionary principles.

We should use common sense, something seriously lacking from most scientists minds - ever look at their personal lives? So many have been indoctrinated from university that they look for impacts and ignore offsets.

Seriously, why are the Salmon more important than some other species that perhaps thrives on the elevated silt levels?
 

PirateMcGee

Expedition Leader
No, America was not built by adhering to a bunch of precautionary principles.

We should use common sense, something seriously lacking from most scientists minds - ever look at their personal lives? So many have been indoctrinated from university that they look for impacts and ignore offsets.

Seriously, why are the Salmon more important than some other species that perhaps thrives on the elevated silt levels?

Not worth my time :Wow1:
 

GaryMc

Explorer
Seriously, why are the Salmon more important than some other species that perhaps thrives on the elevated silt levels?

Salmon are a keystone species for general land health in their native ranges. You could look it up, but you would only get opinions from those educated, indoctrinated folks that don't really know what they are talking about.
 
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