My CUCV M1009 To be named later build

[superbuickguy]

I was referring mostly to the Eldo's parking brake mechanism, I despise any and all integrated parking brake calipers. Drum-in-hat is the way to go IMHO, simpler and generally more reliable as the two systems are separate. Not available with any aftermarket setup that we're aware of though, hence the driveline brake suggestion. What did you on your Sub for e-brake? Someone on YouTube outfitted his NP205 with a driveline brake from what he said was a "200" (NP200 would be my guess), he made it looks stupid-easy. Didn't mention said driveline brakes aren't all that easy to find any more though...

I've had disk brakes on my 83 for a couple years now, and frankly, I've never missed having an emergency brake. I carry wheel chocks for winching (and heaven help those who think an e-brake is the same when winching)... with that said, my FJ40 is a manual transmission, so I'm adding an e-brake to the tail-housing of the Dana 300... but it has lockers all the way around, so the downside of a transfer-case e-brake is mitigated.

 

[jackel44]

Out of curiosity, what's the total cost you're looking at for these stronger brackets and the non-Eldo calipers and rotors and pads, and how does that compare to everything you need to rebuild your 3/4-ton drums?

With everything purchaced from the same local auto parts store and allowing $150 to be spent on the brakcets, and not including a brake proportioning valve, the disk set-up was $305.95. The drum set-up, I would still have to clean up the very rusty dust cover was $264.94.

 

[underdrive]

I've had disk brakes on my 83 for a couple years now, and frankly, I've never missed having an emergency brake. I carry wheel chocks for winching (and heaven help those who think an e-brake is the same when winching)... with that said, my FJ40 is a manual transmission, so I'm adding an e-brake to the tail-housing of the Dana 300... but it has lockers all the way around, so the downside of a transfer-case e-brake is mitigated.

The e-brake is nice to hold the truck in place on a slope with the engine idling while you jump out to position the chock blocks. Otherwise you gotta shut off in low gear, position chocks, restart, and let her roll to a rest - just a bit more work and inconvenience. Plus when parked in certain places (like HOAs with code enforcement "officers" with an ax to grind and holier-than-thou attitude to boot) wheel chocks could attract unneeded attention, not so much with a properly functioning e-brake.

With everything purchased from the same local auto parts store and allowing $150 to be spent on the brackets, and not including a brake proportioning valve, the disk set-up was $305.95. The drum set-up, I would still have to clean up the very rusty dust cover was $264.94.

That's not that big of a difference, the bias valve is cheap too, so figure around $350 for the whole deal... Idk, it's a light truck, and with the better caliper brackets it's very tempting to go discs... How much do you value parking brake? Cause line-locks are not really an unattended-parking solution, wheel chocks however are, and both combined would make a very tolerable setup IMHO...

 

[jackel44]

That's not that big of a difference, the bias valve is cheap too, so figure around $350 for the whole deal... Idk, it's a light truck, and with the better caliper brackets it's very tempting to go discs... How much do you value parking brake? Cause line-locks are not really an unattended-parking solution, wheel chocks however are, and both combined would make a very tolerable setup IMHO...

I live in Nebraska, I have had many manual vehicles in my life and I use parking brake for warm-up and that is it. When I start a vehicle I take it out of gear and apply brake warm it up and then leave. I have many problems here with freezing parking brakes on old and new vehicles.

 

[utherjorge]

what does all of this mean

With so many brake questions, I have another one.

In an old thread over on ColoradoK5, someone posted that if they could do it all over again, they would never have switched to discs, and instead stayed with heavy duty drums.

I've searched all over and I can't find anything one way or the other, not counting so many people switching to discs or wanting to.

So, anyone here know what that guy was talking about? Others agreed with him, too: is it the cost involved, or upgrades being flimsy....or what?

 

[jackel44]

My plan is to buy brackets and fit them if i dont like how it is, then i will let this site know.

 

[superbuickguy]

With so many brake questions, I have another one.

In an old thread over on ColoradoK5, someone posted that if they could do it all over again, they would never have switched to discs, and instead stayed with heavy duty drums.

I've searched all over and I can't find anything one way or the other, not counting so many people switching to discs or wanting to.

So, anyone here know what that guy was talking about? Others agreed with him, too: is it the cost involved, or upgrades being flimsy....or what?

the arguments go like this:

the drum brakes are simpler, thus less can go wrong
you lose your emergency brake (or have to spend extra for different calipers, or a transmission/transfer case brake)
continuing with the emergency brake - the integral e-brake, like the cadillac rotors, are frankly a POS - they work for a bit, then freeze up

and

depending on the bracket, you can go through pads too fast, or crack pads, or get squeeling brakes in 5000 miles...
balancing the new system is a pain
some systems never work right... the very first system I did, I never did get it to work right, about the only thing I could figure was the I got bad calipers...

with that said
with disk brakes you shed at least 125 lbs off unsprung weight off the rear wheels
parts are cheap - the last time I bought pads, I paid $5.00 a set for some closeouts
disk brakes don't overheat as quickly as drums, if you tow huge loads - this is pretty much the "you must do this"
disk brakes shed water faster than drums and are far less likely to freeze you in place

 

[1stDeuce]

the arguments go like this:


with that said
with disk brakes you shed at least 125 lbs off unsprung weight off the rear wheels

I"m with Larry, I put caddy calipers on a 14 bolt FF on a '96 GMC that I had. Worst mistake ever. (It was a stick) I never did get the parking brakes to work at all. And those calipers absolutely SUCK. If you go with a newer setup, you get drum in hat, which actually works, but there's more work and expense to that. With an auto, this may be less of a concern, in which case you should just plunk normal calipers on it.

As for weight, even on my big 14 bolt, I might have reduced the weight by 10-15lbs per side. It wasn't that much. The drum was heavy, but the rotor wasn't much lighter. I tossed the drum backing plates and shoes, but added some 3/8" steel caliper brackets and pretty heavy calipers, so it was pretty much a wash as far as I was concerned.

I will say that the braking was ok, but the front tires would lock way before the rears. Drum brakes are "self energizing" and therefore require less pressure than comparable discs. An adjustable prop valve is a great solution for this, if you only ever drive in one condition, and one load configuration. Otherwise, you really need a factory prop valve, which doesn't just limit pressure, but applies it at a prescribed rate based on the front pressure.

I don't mean to bag on discs, just on the normal cheap conversions that are out there. They might be good for wheeling, but they require a lot of work to be good for the road.
Good luck!
Chris

 

[superbuickguy]

I"m with Larry, I put caddy calipers on a 14 bolt FF on a '96 GMC that I had. Worst mistake ever. (It was a stick) I never did get the parking brakes to work at all. And those calipers absolutely SUCK. If you go with a newer setup, you get drum in hat, which actually works, but there's more work and expense to that. With an auto, this may be less of a concern, in which case you should just plunk normal calipers on it.

As for weight, even on my big 14 bolt, I might have reduced the weight by 10-15lbs per side. It wasn't that much. The drum was heavy, but the rotor wasn't much lighter. I tossed the drum backing plates and shoes, but added some 3/8" steel caliper brackets and pretty heavy calipers, so it was pretty much a wash as far as I was concerned.

I will say that the braking was ok, but the front tires would lock way before the rears. Drum brakes are "self energizing" and therefore require less pressure than comparable discs. An adjustable prop valve is a great solution for this, if you only ever drive in one condition, and one load configuration. Otherwise, you really need a factory prop valve, which doesn't just limit pressure, but applies it at a prescribed rate based on the front pressure.

I don't mean to bag on discs, just on the normal cheap conversions that are out there. They might be good for wheeling, but they require a lot of work to be good for the road.
Good luck!
Chris

as I said, balancing the system is a pain... it's like anything else, people are so used to bolting stuff on and driving it that when they have to go through the validation exercise the engineers the manufacturers have to perform - they get all "oh I like old school, this new stuff is crap" ... I enjoy the adventure of it, and frankly think they neanderthals that trash talk to people who are experimenting are pretty much a waste of oxygen.

 

[jackel44]

Let me expand on what I have said before, I will do the disk conversion with the nicer bracket with the best parts I can find (I would do it that way with drums also). I will ditch the e-brake and use my automatic transmission. I will test the line lock to see how long it holds and such. When I do my manual tranny swap, I will look at either switching to drum or a driveline brake, if I am not satisfied with the duration and holding power of the line locks. If I do switch back to drum I will have all the facts including weights and issues of disk. I know that that seems screwy, but the fact is I dont like to work on drum brakes and I have had nothing but problems with them compared to disk here in Nebraska.

 

[superbuickguy]

in Hot Rod either Jan or Feb 2015 issue - they did a fix on someone's shoebox chevy with rear disk brakes. The issue they had was squealing, and a laundry list of seemingly unrelated issues. Directly to the rear disk brake issue, they (wilwood) made a comment about rear brackets that I think you're asking about as well... the flange itself, on the rear, can flex (wilwood said this), and that causes pads to wear too quickly, crack (an issue I've had), and wear unevenly front-to-back. They attribute it to not following GM's design for the front bracket. The front bracket either has a step in it, or holds the bolt and caliper between fingers (sorry, can't figure a better way to describe it)... it makes sense because if you have any run-out at all on the rotor, something is going to have to give to allow the pads to follow the rotor.

I'm doing disk brakes on a dana 60 now, but I'm welding it to the axle tube - so I avoid flex - but that brings up that I must account for runout (the rotor not being flat to the hub)... which means I get my dial caliper out and use shims to adjust the rotor so it's within 0 and .005 at the edge of the brake surface.... and with that said, I've seen .010 that wears and works just fine...

as I said, there are issues; but once you learn them, disk brakes are better than drum in everything but drag racing where you want to adjust the pads so there is minimal or no drag...

 

[jackel44]

I think It is important to conciser, that you are right Superbuickguy, that the rear disk brakes aren't just a bolt on. I think even if you do any disk brake job, you should check run-out, and if the pads are parallel.

 

[jackel44]

I ordered my disk brake bracket and i was only charged $15.00 shipping. I also recieved my steering bracket from Offroad Design today. I thought it was very well constructed (even though they dont make them).


I first lubed all the bolt threads on the steering box and cross member bracket. (denoted by the black circles)
\
Their is 2 more bolts that need to be removed. You can see the front steering box bolt (denoted in red)


I removed all the bolts I marked including the rear 2 steering box bolts.


I also removed the bracket in front of the cross member and set the new bracket in its place.


I will add more tomorrow after I get new supports bolts and repaint the support bracket.