Need help on deciding a good starting vehicle.

[Campbulance]

As some one who works on an ambulance and has in several states I can drop some info on you.
First stay away from any ambulance with the v10 in it. They are a true gutless wonder with all of the added weight of the ambulance box and wind resistance the MPG are crap.
like 6-7 MPG around town crap. Mind you We are not driving like miss dasiy but still..... They leave much to be desired.

Second, the problem with ambulances is that they they get cycled out of service there is most often a reason. These trucks run around the clock and get beat on they have dozens of drivers who care more about getting there fast then respecting the rig. This often means they have had transmission work done suspension work break work etc. When they are finally cycled out they are tired. While 200k on a 7.3 might not be much for a pick up that 200k of really hard miles on an ambulance that often weighs upwards of 15k
if you are handy with a wrench you can find one and fix many things your self. A friend out here in idaho recently grabbed a mid 90's truck style with factory 4x4 and the 7.3 with less then 150k on the clock for five grand. He searched for five years. I am not saying that there are no good ambulances out there I am just sayign know what you are getting into. the key s to look for a majro city that has strict cycling with their rigs that says they get rid of them at a certin point no matter what, or look online for a small town rig with lower miles that might be older but odds are has been taken better care of.
good luck

Thanks for the first hand knowledge of the conditioning of ambulances in general. I do know that they can lead some tough lives. On the other hand they do have a good chance of being well maintained by people such as yourself. I know there can be diamonds in the rough out there and that is one beautiful thing about being online is you can find these things easier. I would like to go the small town route. I located a vehicle that is in Canada from a very remote small town by the looks of it on the map and the rig has 80,000 miles and is a 95. Would you say being in a small town that the chance for them to be on all the time is less since there is lower rate of calls? Do most places keep a service record log as well for the types of maintenance these vehicles see?

Thanks everyone to looking or contributing. This is definitely a fun way to intrigue a guy that can't leave well enough alone.

Thanks everyone for the input.

 

[Cole]

Having driven emergency service vehicles in a previous life for 10 years, I only have this to say. Many of the things we did to them no amount of service would fix :coffeedrink:

 

[Mwilliamshs]

The main difference in used ambulances is who owned it, and who owned it previously, and how much time has passed since it was depended on for saving lives. Buying one that was purchased new by a smaller municipality, and buying directly from them, and buying as soon as possible following decommission, is probably your safest bet for maintenance and how it was treated. In some areas the EMTs and drivers are the firefighters and paramedics too. Firefighters are great people to buy equipment from. They spend off-hours washing trucks, testing equipment and tools, prepping them, and usually drive with this in mind, not to mention their governmental retirements. They think more of equipment as saving themselves too. EMS employees are rarely themselves in immediate danger (unless from a violent patient, etc) whereas firefighters often depend on their equipment for survival, not just job performance.They tend to view equipment differently than an EMT/Paramedic that went to school and got hired as a regular employee. I work in the medical field (not going into specifics) and know a lot of these folks. Trust me when I say there are obvious differences. Not throwing off on anyone, just stating the facts. I can tell them apart when they're out of uniform too. Think State Police vs hourly security guard (this example is exaggerated but applicable).

Buying an ambulance that was purchased new by a large for-profit company, run to its maximum service life according to their standards, stripped of reusable parts and accessories, left to sit in the back lot, then sold to a small municipality or an individual and then resold to you is probably worst-case scenario. I have a friend who owned a VERY big EMS/tow service in the south for 20+ years and this is his advice as well as my experience before he and I met.

I was shopping ambulances when I found my used Sportsmobile. If I'd had my choice I would've found either a 1993 E-350 with a 7.3 IDI or a 2002 E-350 7.3 Powerstroke. Chevy doesn't offer anything I'd be interested in this weight class/application.

The reason ambulance service decals suggest (cuz, really they can't MAKE you do anything, right?) turning off O/D is based on 5 things IMO/experience: it prevents excessive shifting or "gear-hunting" at speed on the highway when traffic, lane-changes and changes elevation can cause near-constant shifting from O/D to direct which causes wear and heat, the torque converter is less likely to lock-up at the rpm's normally achieved in O/D and will create excessive heat under those conditions long-term, the rpm's normally achieved in O/D are not typically sufficient to pump transmission fluid through the coolers fast enough to rid the unit of heat generated under an ambulance's weight and road-load, lugging a diesel engine at too-low an rpm for load can create excessive EGT, and slowing the engine slows everything connected to it: alternators (lower output at slower speeds), cooling fan (creates less cooling air flow at lower rpm, this is just one reason why high-idle is used on ambulances), etc etc etc. In my climate (100* days with 100% humidity) I often see running emergency vehicles on-scene parked with their hoods raised to keep temps under control.

 

[Bikersmurf]

What rpm range are the 7.3 Powerstrokes happiest in?

 

[flightcancled]

The ambos I looked at had head heights that varied from a miserable 5'5" to my rig which is about 5'9.5"

There's always a reason for retirement, but sometimes they are not a bad thing for someone that's doing an overhaul. In my case a minor wiring mixup which made starting a pain resulted in my rig bouncing around the northeast without really seeing use and being retired prematurely.

It sounds like what you are looking for would be a 7.3 mini-mod. All the power with less dead weight and compartments you don't need.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Mwilliamshs]

What rpm range are the 7.3 Powerstrokes happiest in?

They seem to like 1900ish for cruising. I've used more fuel running at 2100 (makes sense right?) and more fuel at 1500 (counter-intuitive till you realize it was lugging at too-low of an rpm to be relaxed). EGTs were lower at 1900 too, burning all the fuel efficiently with sufficient airflow (vs 1500) without boosting unnecessarily for the load (vs 2100). This is an empty 2wd crew-cab dually automatic in O/D, on flat land without significant wind. With a load that "sweet spot" moves up in the rpm range and for an ambulace, you're always loaded. Whether it's the weight, the wind resistance, etc there's ALWAYS a load compared to an empty pickup. Those revs are applicable to my 2002 btw, an earlier rig (pre-intercooled) would be a bit different with higher EGTs at all boost levels and boost occurring at comparatively lighter loads/lower rpms (hence the perceived better throttle response from a non-ic rig). My old NA IDI 7.3 (in basically the same truck, white 2wd crew-cab dually) liked roughly the same ranges, but generally needed more revs for the same load.

If you compare these numbers (1,900 rpm specifically) to the hp/torque ratings of an intercooled 7.3 post-99 powerstroke you'll see that peak torque for this motor is at 1,600 and the HP curve is really just taking off from there to its peak at 2,800. Makes sense to me. It's possible with a really long ring and pinion, (3.08s maybe?) and a standard trans with close ratios you could drive on the torque table more than the hp curve and maybe get better mileage but it's really impractical for realistic highway speeds.

Best advice you can get with any diesel is get a good pyrometer and boost gauge and drive by them more than anything else. ESPECIALLY if you've made any mods at all or if the mileage is very high.

 

[Bikersmurf]

Thanks, mine is similar to a Mini-mod, but it has duallys. The box has radiused corners, but she's 8500 lbs empty. 1900 rpm seems like a good minimum with any load.

 

[EMrider]

Thanks, although we have some crummy smog laws here diesel can be more lenient especially if you are older than 98 there are none. I have been intrigued with some of the older medium duty truck based ambulances as well. They just look tough, menacing and just plain cool. However might be overkill and not have much resale value down the line.



I have no doubts that the v10 can pull with ease and are reliable engines, my searches have shown that at as well. I just worry about gas mileage. Do you have one, and can tell me what they get towing some weight? I know wind resistance and load make a difference, just looking for a ball park. I have seen reports as low as 6-7 mpg loaded and even unloaded down in the low teens.

I wish I lived in a perfect world. There are things I love and hate about each van. I love the looks of the ford but in extended version I dislike the wheelbase and prefer the chevy/gmc extended bodies. I like the duramax diesel from my limited research, but then the vans don't use the Alison trans like the trucks do. I like the 7.3 PSD but they have one less gear than the 6.0l PSD. Stop the insanity.

Yep, best to not think about MPG on the V10s. Most owners seem to get 10-12 in mixed driving unloaded and 8-10 if towing.

FWIW, my 6.0 has been by far the most reliable vehicle I have ever owned. It does need regular maintenance and is happiest when driven hard. I know their rep, but thankfully my experience has been different.

Good luck.
R

 

[Mwilliamshs]

FWIW, my 6.0 has been by far the most reliable vehicle I have ever owned.

I've heard this before...from people that bought Fiats in the '70s, Yugos in the '80s, and oceanfront property in Arizona. :sombrero: I kid.

I believe the '6.oh-no' can be a good, dependable motor with a good deal of power but it takes a wad of cash or more luck than I'll ever have to get it there. Probably comparable money to A) rebuild a worn-out 7.3L PSD to go another 300k miles vs B) build a dependable 6.0L.

 

[EMrider]

I've heard this before...from people that bought Fiats in the '70s, Yugos in the '80s, and oceanfront property in Arizona. :sombrero: I kid.

I believe the '6.oh-no' can be a good, dependable motor with a good deal of power but it takes a wad of cash or more luck than I'll ever have to get it there. Probably comparable money to A) rebuild a worn-out 7.3L PSD to go another 300k miles vs B) build a dependable 6.0L.

There appears to be a relationship between 6.0psd problems and 1) how the engine has been maintained (cannot slack off), 2) the extent to which the motor has been modded to boost power and 3) driving habits (don't idle or baby it).

In the E350, the 6.0psd is tuned for lower power versus the F350.

All that said, there is a degree of luck and randomness at work.
R

 

[Campbulance]

Yep, best to not think about MPG on the V10s. Most owners seem to get 10-12 in mixed driving unloaded and 8-10 if towing.

FWIW, my 6.0 has been by far the most reliable vehicle I have ever owned. It does need regular maintenance and is happiest when driven hard. I know their rep, but thankfully my experience has been different.

Good luck.
R

Glad it has worked out for you. Since I am looking in the used market so I would like to limit my risk exposure. From my research it appears once you address the weak points of the 6.0 it can be reliable. One thing that limits me on the Ford is the EB versions and the long overhang for towing. I know it can tow fine but I prefer the Chevy. It just more difficult to find since there are like 20:1 fords to Chevy/GMC

I've heard this before...from people that bought Fiats in the '70s, Yugos in the '80s, and oceanfront property in Arizona. :sombrero: I kid.

I believe the '6.oh-no' can be a good, dependable motor with a good deal of power but it takes a wad of cash or more luck than I'll ever have to get it there. Probably comparable money to A) rebuild a worn-out 7.3L PSD to go another 300k miles vs B) build a dependable 6.0L.

THanks for the laugh. I had a comowroker that had a Fiat and put a MR2 engine in it. Fiat actually wanted to buy the car from him so that they could develop their own kit. At least that's what he said. But it was a well designed swap and the first wap I had ever seen being in the early 90's.

There appears to be a relationship between 6.0psd problems and 1) how the engine has been maintained (cannot slack off), 2) the extent to which the motor has been modded to boost power and 3) driving habits (don't idle or baby it).

In the E350, the 6.0psd is tuned for lower power versus the F350.

All that said, there is a degree of luck and randomness at work.
R

The Vans for Chevy are detuned also. Sucks for the van people. As far as maintenance goes I would have to see a detailed log book to go with 6.0.

I am going to look at the Duramax Express EB tonight, if it is still available. It has a relatively cheap entry price at 10,800 although it comes with 220k miles. I am still torn about the ambulance idea, I really like the look I was going to go for being a medium duty truck base. Maybe it can be the next one if I pull the trigger on this one.

 

[Ozrockrat]

Having had poptop sportsmobile, ford E450 ambo, Ford EB E350 diesel 4wd and now a medium duty Freightliner Ambo I can probably add a few items for you to think about.

For your requirements I would suggest a medium duty vehicle (Freightliner, C4500 etc). The E350/E450 based ambo's are at the limits of capacity (cooling, torque, braking). So towing up to 6000 lbs is going to stretch things. Towing a light weight trailer with the sidecar crippled my fuel economy and made the rig struggle up the hills. Adding 35" tires (even though I had hydra boost brakes) made braking more interesting.

A medium duty Ambo comes with some big advantages. 6' interior height being one of the.But the major thing is that running the in Ambo configuration the are at the lower end of their capacity. They are also designed for a longer life originally. They have more robust everything. Going from 29" to 43" tires has not added any pucker factor to the braking at all. )air over hydraulic disks).

Probably the most critical difference is the cab. Anyone who has spent time in the passengers seat of the E series diesels will tell you all about the dreadful ergonomics and the heat. Compare that to air ride seating, plenty of leg, head room then add in the accurate mantra of "happy wife = happy life" and you will see where the most benefit is.

Also if you are looking at pre 98 vehicles to help with the CA smog rules you can get the 12V Cummins 5.9 coupled with an Allison 3060 transmission. That's like adding bulletproof to bulletproof. Look at how many people are out there dreaming about putting the 5.9 Cummins in their ford vans.

Now if you are going to use it as any type of semi-daily driver there are a few things to also consider. They are noisy from the outside, big diesel engine noise, big exhaust, compressor discharge add up to pissing the neighbors off. Having to sit and idle while you build up air also does not help with neighbor relations. The 8mpg around town also has its disadvantages (in my configuration).

Oh and the premium benefit. AIR HORNS. Just to remind those people who manage to miss seeing a 7.5 ton, dayglow yellow monster with more lights than a Vegas strip club entry to get out of the way. :victory:

 

[MikeCG]

I currently have an older (2001) chevy customized van. It's got a 350ci. I've towed my 3800lb Subaru behind it without any issues. The conversion vans are set up nice as far as space. The rear seat folds down for sleeping. It's fine for overnighting, but doesn't have a shower or toilet. Sadly, I haven't seen any conversions that were diesel though. Chassis wise, however, towing won't be an issue.

 

[Campbulance]

Having had poptop sportsmobile, ford E450 ambo, Ford EB E350 diesel 4wd and now a medium duty Freightliner Ambo I can probably add a few items for you to think about.

For your requirements I would suggest a medium duty vehicle (Freightliner, C4500 etc). The E350/E450 based ambo's are at the limits of capacity (cooling, torque, braking). So towing up to 6000 lbs is going to stretch things. Towing a light weight trailer with the sidecar crippled my fuel economy and made the rig struggle up the hills. Adding 35" tires (even though I had hydra boost brakes) made braking more interesting.

A medium duty Ambo comes with some big advantages. 6' interior height being one of the.But the major thing is that running the in Ambo configuration the are at the lower end of their capacity. They are also designed for a longer life originally. They have more robust everything. Going from 29" to 43" tires has not added any pucker factor to the braking at all. )air over hydraulic disks).

Probably the most critical difference is the cab. Anyone who has spent time in the passengers seat of the E series diesels will tell you all about the dreadful ergonomics and the heat. Compare that to air ride seating, plenty of leg, head room then add in the accurate mantra of "happy wife = happy life" and you will see where the most benefit is.

Also if you are looking at pre 98 vehicles to help with the CA smog rules you can get the 12V Cummins 5.9 coupled with an Allison 3060 transmission. That's like adding bulletproof to bulletproof. Look at how many people are out there dreaming about putting the 5.9 Cummins in their ford vans.

Now if you are going to use it as any type of semi-daily driver there are a few things to also consider. They are noisy from the outside, big diesel engine noise, big exhaust, compressor discharge add up to pissing the neighbors off. Having to sit and idle while you build up air also does not help with neighbor relations. The 8mpg around town also has its disadvantages (in my configuration).

Oh and the premium benefit. AIR HORNS. Just to remind those people who manage to miss seeing a 7.5 ton, dayglow yellow monster with more lights than a Vegas strip club entry to get out of the way. :victory:

View attachment 238515

Awesome response thank you. You did not add anything to think about. I was already thinkingit. I was really drawn to a 90-95 C4500 topkick based ambulance. Although they have the CAT 3116 or 3126 based engines. People talk about them like they talk about the 6.0 PSD. Like you said could maybe go 5.9 or the dt466. You said 8mp in your configuration. What is effecting your gas mileage? What is your highway mpg? I figure it is probably a gearing thing. I have already subscribed to your build thread but have not made the time to fully read it yet. This would not be a daily driver. It would be used for the weekend events. Have you towed with your FL yet and how was it?

 

[Ozrockrat]

Awesome response thank you. You did not add anything to think about. I was already thinkingit. I was really drawn to a 90-95 C4500 topkick based ambulance. Although they have the CAT 3116 or 3126 based engines. People talk about them like they talk about the 6.0 PSD. Like you said could maybe go 5.9 or the dt466. You said 8mp in your configuration. What is effecting your gas mileage? What is your highway mpg? I figure it is probably a gearing thing. I have already subscribed to your build thread but have not made the time to fully read it yet. This would not be a daily driver. It would be used for the weekend events. Have you towed with your FL yet and how was it?

8mpg is due to the this thing being slow off the line and pushing a lot of rubber. Currently I have changed the gearing considerably (current tire diameter is 1.48 x the supplied tires and 1.3 x specified tires for this unit). Currently I am checking options for final drive gearing with the holy grail being a 2 speed diff with locker. I believe I could easily improve the mileage just by going into Freightliner or Allison and getting the shift point modified for the new gearing (also reenabling the 3rd or 4th gear which is disabled in the tranny software on these units). Never taken the mileage for the open road yet but we got over 10 with it screaming all the way from Florida to Arizona with the little wheels on there.

We have towed with the FL but it was only a light motorcycle trailer with the sidecar on it. FL did not even notice it was there. Only problem was not having any visibility of the trailer at all and with no effect on the FL the trailer could of parted ways and we would not of known about it. A rear view camera is on the punch list.


One other thing I didn't mention as a major benefit for towing is the airbag rear suspension. Same ride height without any stuffing around and plenty of excess capacity.