Need some ideas on house battery for a 2 Battery Ford 6.0l Diesel

[Bear in NM]

All,

Decided to post here, as a couple of years worth of thread reading in the van sub-forum makes me think this better here. Pretty excited, I finally have my Quigley Turbo Diesel. Been working on a client for the last 5 years, and he finally sold me his 2004 Quigley E350 SD van. I am pretty up on dual batteries, solar and the ins and outs of putting these things together. I have a portable solar suitcase built from scratch, a decent solar system in my cargo van conversion, but my "new" van has me head scratching a bit. Need some thoughts from you all.

I can use my solar suitcase for now for the van, but I want to eventually integrate may solar panels, and install a third (or 4th) house battery. My van is a 2004 Ford E350, 6.0l diesel (yes, I know all about the issues with 6.0). It has two 12v batteries on the passenger frame rail. For the diesel, these batteries are wired parallel, feeding power to the control module that converts the 12v to 48v for the diesel.

For the house battery system, I could easily place batteries inside, and run an independent house system, but I tend to want to integrate into the stock electrical, for charging. I have done the Pact relay dual battery system in my Chevy Avalanche, so I have that process down pretty well. For my van, the logical approach would be to place one or two batteries on the driver frame rail, using stock Ford battery boxes, in the frame holes that are already drilled. I would need to space them out a bit to clear the e-brake, per a great thread here I found. Where I am a bit stumped is what to do next.

For my Avalanche 2nd battery, I did the Pact relay and disconnect switch, with the two batteries tied positive to positive, negative to negative. I only have about a 6 foot run of cables. With the van, to connect, I would have to either run across the body, past the exhaust and drivetrain, or take the Long Way Home to the engine compartment and back. I am new to this diesel charging system, so I am thinking that maybe I am missing something simpler? Next to my engine electrical fuse box is a covered box marked "Alt". It has a single positive 12 volt post (fairly small) that the former owner has a trickle charger wired to. The trickle charger is tied to a block heater cord, for a one plug in, charge and warm connection to 120. Not sure whether that is mickey mouse, or what. With the van off, this post reports nominal 12V. There is zero room in the engine compartment for the typical relay system. And I am currently researching like crazy, trying to understand how this diesel van charges and is wired. I have a single alternator that should be about 120-130 amps.

The short of it would be how do I charge the house battery(s), and tie into the starter batteries? This is my first diesel, and I am a lot excited, and a bit terrified...

Thanks,

Craig

 

[Art4med]

http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/CheapTricks/DualBatteries.shtml

 

[Bear in NM]

Art,

Thanks for the link. Interesting read. I do want to add a winch at some point, but don't need to be able to weld. I am fortunate in that I do not have to fabricate or get creative with "where" for the battery. My frame rails are already drilled, and the battery boxes (and covers) are standard Ford parts. I had to replace both my starter batteries yesterday, as one was very toast, the other probably so. Boy, they sure do not give away those group 65 batteries. In doing the battery drop for both boxes, I got a better understanding of my electrical system. It would be so much easier if I had starter batteries under the hood. And I did introduce another complication to my situation. I put standard lead/acid batteries in for my starting batteries. When I do house battery(s), I will certainly be doing AGM. Thinking that relay connecting two different battery types may not be such a great idea.

For now I am going to plan to just use my portable solar suitcase inside my van. My Sunsaver Duo will solar charge dis-similar battery types, and until I get some days of camping in the van to figure out an interior layout, it will be easier to just plug in my fridge when driving, and switch it over to my suitcase when setting up camp. When I get serious about big house batteries on my frame rails, I am not seeing any scenario where I do not have miles of wire run, if I want to drive and charge.

I do need to get more edumacated on DC-DC charging, as that may hold some answers.

Craig

 

[Bbasso]

I have a 7.3 van with dual starting batteries and mounted the 2 house batteries inside with 200wt solar on the roof and a Blue sea 7622 to tie the banks together. It's been flawless over two years.

 

[Bear in NM]

Rob,

Thanks, I've seen a lot of your posts and pictures in the Van sub-forum. I am up to about page 60 of looking at the past threads. I may decide to put them on the inside, as well. I have a cargo van with solar, and use a rolling wooden box for its battery tray.. My trailer electrical panel is at the front right wall. I roll the box back by the axle for driving/weight, and back up front when camped. It also doubles as a seat or footrest in the trailer. If I were to build the charge/electrical center on the passenger side wall of the van, this would place it directly above my starter batteries. I could place the Pact relay beside the starter batteries, and connect up through the van floor. I think the only long wire run would be the ignition tie to the relay, which would be a small wire. This might make the most sense.

I like the idea of using the driver frame rail for batteries, as it is already set to do that. I was planning on batteries there, and water in 5 gallon cans on the inside. Perhaps I should think about a water tank on this frame rail, with batteries on the inside. Might be easier and safer than ought size wire running to and fro.

Craig

 

[Bbasso]

I placed my house batteries on the d. side to balance the weight, they are 98lbs each... and the length of 0 Guage wire was less than 6 ft. to the ACR & house batteries. (I wanted the batteries to have a chance at a long life so they are inside to minimize the temperature swings)
And my water tank (21 G) is inside because I didn't want to worry about freezing when in cold climates. That is mounted above the rear axle off center towards the p.side , again weight balance.
Don't forget our fuel tanks are 35 gallons mounted on the inside of the d. side frame rail.
While I've yet to corner balance my van (unlikely will ever) she sits very level and rides flat and true.

 

[Bear in NM]

Rob,

My tank is 29 gallons, after the Quigley conversion. Yes, it sits about mid ship, slight driver side bias. With my batteries on the P side, sitting empty I would guess I am pretty much in equal balance with those, right now. I have no idea what the rear ac/heat unit adds to the driver side, but overall, empty I am certainly a little heaver on the D side. I am divorced, so not often a person in my passenger seat, other than my 100lb dog, but he has not been in the van yet, so he has not claimed a spot ;^). My plan was to lash water and propane down on the P side when travelling, and with my butt in the seat, should be pretty even.

I was whacked by a drunk driver in my Jeep in 2013, and it rolled me over. All those little "goodies" I stashed safely away for secure offroad travel were not even close to being rollover safe. This is part of the reason for liking the frame rail aux battery idea. Projectile minimization is probably etched into the back of brain, forever. And I agree, inside battery location is much easier on them. As I am building for camping and not long term travelling, and will be spending a lot of time just outside the side doors, an electrical battery center passenger side just inside the side doors might make the most sense. Minimal wire runs to connect the house and start batteries, and much less risk of a battery wire fire from an accident or four wheeling. Yes, I would think that I could keep the line under 6 feet.

While changing out my start batteries this week, I really got a bad feeling about the large positive wire running up the outside of the P side frame rail, to the front. As the bank is grounded to frame (and entire vehicle) at the frame near the rear tire, I am going to add a switch to this line, so that I can immediately disconnect my start batteries. I would hope that this positive line has a fuseable link in it, but I might add a battery fuse on each battery when I drop them again. It would suck to have a passenger side fender bender start a full on fire.

Thanks for the reminder on weight distribution, and giving me food for electrical thought.

Craig

 

[Bbasso]

Glad I could help. If you have any questions, feel free to contact me.

 

[Bear in NM]

Appreciate that. I'll probably see you in the van forum, one of these days.....

 

[NatersXJ6]

A 6.0 Note

I'm not sure if this is entirely technically correct... But being the Internet... Someone will clarify it!

This isn't specific to your question, other than wanting to know more about how your charging system works.

In my 6.0 truck, I went down a nightmare road of trying to troubleshoot what I thought was a charging issue. I almost replaced a $500 alternator because I would measure less charging voltage after starting than I did at the end of a long drive. my truck would still be dead despite showing a charging voltage.

Somewhere in the depths of one of the power stroke forms, I read that ford doesn't connect, or maybe just doesn't excite, the alternator, until the vehicle reaches full temp. The reasoning has something to do with not exposing the alternator to the full load of the glow system? Anyway, I found the general principle to be correct, after driving about 6 miles following a cold start, the voltage jumps up dramatically. If you do it at night, you can see the headlights brighten, if you are watching for it.

As I don't drive often, I used to take the truck out for little 5 mile runs every now and then to keep things circulating... never realizing I was slowly killing my batteries. That explains a lot of the time I spent on the charger. now I do 2 hour runs.

My ultimate problem ended up being one bad cell in one of the starting batteries. Alternator still going strong.

 

[Bear in NM]

Nater,

I have not completely got the charging system ironed out as to function. I do know that it uses two 12v batteries in parallel, mounted on the passenger frame rail. The positive side runs into the engine compartment along the frame rail, but I have not looked at that yet. I do not have any manuals, which I will be correcting. The negative side of the battery bank is grounded to the frame, at the rear of the batteries. I am in a class all weekend, so I have not had time to pull that connection, and check for continuity, and really scuff/correct the connection. Has a little rust in the bolt threads. Gonna fix that, and add a manual disconnect switch. I have only had the van for about a week.

The PO said that the batteries "should be good", but he has a trickle charger wired up front that he said he always plugs in. I dropped the batteries last week, to replace. They were a pair of "AAA" batteries (yes, that AAA), with a 2016 tag. Yes, only a couple of years old, but "AAA" brand batteries? Big if in my book. I replaced the batteries as when I hooked up a Schumacher battery charger to the positive jump post in the back, they would not take a charge past 80%, with the charger displaying "BadBat". I replaced with 2 new Interstate lead acid batteries, that I charged individually before install, with my Schumacher. No problem, each charged to full individually. After install, I again plugged in my Schumacher to the jump post to charge both top charge batteries (now in parallel), and it again would not charge past about 88% this time. But the van starts correctly, and "strongly" with the new batteries. Yes, the Schumacher charger is kinda junky, but my good Samlex charger is hard wired in my Cargo Trailer solar system. I will add a proper charger once I have my head more around the entire system in the van.

The PO has the trickle charger wired to the small box beside the engine relay fuse panel. It is marked "Alt", and has a positive small lug on one side. This box shows the battery resting voltage, and I am assuming for now the main battery feed comes into this box, as well as the alternator charge circuit? I need a bit more education on all of this.

As to starting....I have a Scangauge II installed. So far, on a couple of starts, the bat voltage shows as 12.5 with key in run, warming the glow plugs. My FICM power does show the 48 volts needed for the engine. At start, the bat voltage drops into the 11's while cranking, and stays there a short time after the strong start. Fires right up. After about a minute, assuming when the glow plugs shut down, the voltage rises to 12.5. Almost immediately I can see the alternator kick in, as my volts go to 13.5, then 14.1, then back to 13.5 and up to 14.1. Repeat, repeat, repeat. I have not road tested on a long haul yet, but my alternator is kicking in pretty much right away, with voltage bouncing between these two ranges.

I know my FICM is good. My alternator is working, I just do not know whether the bounce in ranges is normal, or will settle to any kind of proper charge profile. I do need to clean up the negative ground to frame connection. I am half thinking that as my batteries are about 5-6 feet from the alternator, maybe this dual system really needs the "big 3" wire upgrade, that is common on many gas engines. I have no idea what the gauge is on the positive power feed, but it is not a huge wire, from looking at the loom? I have read on the diesel forums that the system is not well designed, but the drop in voltage at start is consistent with glow plug firing, but have read nothing about charging after engine temp arrival? But this is my first diesel.

Sorry for writing a novel here, kinda in the dark, and spitballing. I am going to install solar on the van, and am still trying to wrap my head around dc-dc, or maybe just an isolated house battery system, with the solar doing duty on the house side, and trickle charging the van when it is sitting. I do not overland, just camp for weekends (long weekends), with 12v needs. I think once I figure out how things are supposed to work, I can design something that will make for Happy Volts. Right now I know things look a bit off, and I will not kill my new batteries.

Craig