New Defender Buyers Discussions

[DieselRanger]

Does the D5 have Torque Vectoring?

Yes, they have what they call "cornering brake control," as well as brake-based hill descent control, electronic brake force distribution which biases braking force front to rear to maximize stability and minimize stopping distance, and stability control that adds brake force in panic stops and to control trailer motion.

 

[DieselRanger]

Fair point and my mistake. While I am comfortable changing pads, I must acknowledge that some people aren't comfortable enough, or simply don't want/care to work on their own vehicles. I can see this being around $1,000 USD at a dealer if you wanted to pay full price for pads, sensors and labor. So, if you're worried about costs and don't think you'll reap the full benefits, then maybe the rear locker should be avoided. FWIW, I drove my 2016 L494 HARD (I used to run 1/8 mile drags with it, I Auto-x it once, took it out to a local race track for some light laps during open lapping sessions and yes, took it off road!) and my rear pads lasted twice as long as what you're describing.

Fortunately, since this is an order/option discussion thread, I feel like it's OK to stray a bit here from the purely "Defender" nature of the conversation to discuss our experience with this option on similar LR platforms. All things considered, the rear torque vectoring diff on the Defender is an option that I would check if I were building one. 95% of the users on this forum would likely do the same, but I guess the beauty of a thread like this is that we can get opinions and weigh the pros and cons

Cornering Brake Control is standard on all Defenders in the US. Just built a base Defender P300 and it shows it clearly in the "Standard Features" area. I believe it's the same CBC that's on all JLR products. Frankly it's part of the ABS system.

I don't see it as anything worse than the "automatic brake drying feature" that Fords and GM vehicles deployed, which very lightly dragged the brakes to dry them in wet weather.

 

[mpinco]

Yes, they have what they call "cornering brake control," as well as brake-based hill descent control, electronic brake force distribution which biases braking force front to rear to maximize stability and minimize stopping distance, and stability control that adds brake force in panic stops and to control trailer motion.

Cornering Brake Control is not the same as Torque Vectoring Brakes that applies brakes even if the driver did not apply brakes. Torque vectoring operates in all cornering, irregardless of the driver applying brakes. I would expect urban rear brake life to suffer vs straight line highway.

CBC regulates the "applied" pressure as the driver brakes. From Land Rover Workshop Manuals on CBC

Corner Braking Control (CBC)
CBC improves stability control while braking through corners.

As the vehicle enters a corner, the weight of the vehicle shifts to the outside wheels. With non CBC equipped vehicles,
if the driver brakes while driving through a corner an equal hydraulic force is applied to each wheel. Though the
pressure is equal the grip available for braking is unequal at the tyre footprint due to the increased weight on the
outside wheels.

With a CBC equipped vehicle, the feature regulates the applied pressure to the wheels based on the rate of cornering.
When the driver brakes, an unequal hydraulic pressure is applied to each side of the vehicle. Though the brake
application pressure to each wheel is unequal, the dynamic of the vehicles weight transfer compensates for the
unequal pressure, as a result braking effort is distributed in proportion to the grip available ensuring that lateral grip
is maintained.

blackangie selected Active Differential with Torque Vectoring as an option for his Defender build.

Looks like the D5 does not have Torque Vectoring.

 

[blackangie]

What kind of depreciation do you guys think these will have? I'm kind of thinking of waiting a few years for a used one. I have plenty of original defenders to drive anyway.

Not much especially in the first few years, especially if you spec it nice, they will be somewhat hard to get your hands on, LR has guaranteed buyback if your really worried.
I never buy for resale, I buy to enjoy.

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

 

[blackangie]

Yup. The YMMV for Torque Vectoring for Braking. Same with cost. I was referencing the dealer quote but you are right, it could be done for less but I would think the entire package of pads, rotors and sensors would need to be replaced since many are surprised at the short interval. For those reliant on dealer service that short interval becomes a large cost item over the life of the vehicle.

If you knew it could be done for less, why quote the high figure, 2 real life experiences above both double and triple the quoted k's experienced.
Whilst i appreciate the knowledge it can use brakes more, maybe just try not to paint things in an obviously overly negative light.
New defender is 95% new, im guessing we will see improvements all around including brake life, however brake life is directly dependant on the driver and environment.

Anyway lets keep this on subject, basically if you dont intend on getting a new defender now or in the future or respect those that do, you should not be posting here.(first post and thread title updated)

 

[DieselRanger]

Cornering Brake Control is not the same as Torque Vectoring Brakes that applies brakes even if the driver did not apply brakes. Torque vectoring operates in all cornering. I would expect urban rear brake life to suffer vs straight line highway.

CBC regulates the "applied" pressure as the driver brakes. From Land Rover Workshop Manuals on CBC

Corner Braking Control (CBC)
CBC improves stability control while braking through corners.

As the vehicle enters a corner, the weight of the vehicle shifts to the outside wheels. With non CBC equipped vehicles,
if the driver brakes while driving through a corner an equal hydraulic force is applied to each wheel. Though the
pressure is equal the grip available for braking is unequal at the tyre footprint due to the increased weight on the
outside wheels.

With a CBC equipped vehicle, the feature regulates the applied pressure to the wheels based on the rate of cornering.
When the driver brakes, an unequal hydraulic pressure is applied to each side of the vehicle. Though the brake
application pressure to each wheel is unequal, the dynamic of the vehicles weight transfer compensates for the
unequal pressure, as a result braking effort is distributed in proportion to the grip available ensuring that lateral grip
is maintained.

blackangie selected Active Differential with Torque Vectoring as an option.

OK, the electronic active diff with torque vectoring is available on RRS and other JLR vehicles - it's not on the D5. This is primarily used in high-G / aggressive cornering - otherwise the active diff can electronically control the degree of coupling between left and right, and CBC (which is standard on the Defender) provides assist. If you regularly drive aggressively I think you'd see a significant drop in brake life on a vehicle equipped with TVBB. But if that's the case, buy one of their prepaid maintenance plans that includes wear items and save some money, or DIY.

 

[mpinco]

If you knew it could be done for less, why quote the high figure, 2 real life experiences above both double and triple the quoted k's experienced.
Whilst i appreciate the knowledge it can use brakes more, maybe just try not to paint things in an obviously overly negative light.
New defender is 95% new, im guessing we will see improvements all around including brake life, however brake life is directly dependant on the driver and environment.

Anyway lets keep this on subject, basically if you dont intend on getting a new defender now or in the future or respect those that do, you should not be posting here.(first post and thread title updated)

Seriously, chill out. I quoted the dealer cost because many use that as a reference and rely on dealer service. That is in the $1K USD range. That is for pads, rotors and sensors which most will need on a very short rear brake service interval.

The 'real life experiences' highlighted that YMMV on Torque Vectoring with Braking mileage but roughly were in the range of the other LR forum report, all less than 20K miles down to 12K miles. The D5 does not have torque vectoring so rear brake life should be more like what most think, in the 50-70K miles range while front brakes will wear sooner as vehicle braking systems are biased to the front. The D5 is what people expect from braking systems. I do not expect to see mileage improvements for Torque Vectoring. It is what it is, applying brakes when the driver is not using brakes.

My point was you asked for feedback on your build and noticed you selected Active Diff with TV. On other forums there are the reports of very short rear brake life. So I thought you should know because as many have pointed out the traction control system is very good and that many believe you don't need "HD" lockers. In essence maybe you don't really need Active Diff with TV. So not only could you save money on your build you could also avoid very expensive recurring maintenance. Isn't that what you want as feedback? What you should be asking is "Do I really need Active Diff with TV?".

Hope you enjoy your build.

 

[blackangie]

Seriously, chill out. I quoted the dealer cost because many use that as a reference and rely on dealer service. That is in the $1K USD range. That is for pads, rotors and sensors which most will need on a very short rear brake service interval.

The 'real life experiences' highlighted that YMMV on Torque Vectoring with Braking mileage but roughly were in the range of the other LR forum report, all less than 20K miles down to 12K miles. The D5 does not have torque vectoring so rear brake life should be more like what most think, in the 50-70K miles range while front brakes will wear sooner as vehicle braking systems are biased to the front. The D5 is what people expect from braking systems. I do not expect to see mileage improvements for Torque Vectoring. It is what it is, applying brakes when the driver is not using brakes.

My point was you asked for feedback on your build and noticed you selected Active Diff with TV. On other forums there are the reports of very short rear brake life. So I thought you should know because as many have pointed out the traction control system is very good and that many believe you don't need "HD" lockers. In essence maybe you don't really need Active Diff with TV. So not only could you save money on your build you could also avoid very expensive recurring maintenance. Isn't that what you want as feedback?

Hope you enjoy your build.

Arn't we on the 3rd or 4th thread now because of not listening to mods?

Read the first post again please.

No one uses dealer costs as a reference, i bet you don't either.




Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

 

[JackW]

I'm going to wait until I can read some road tests of the new Defender before I finalize my order. I'm hoping that reading about how the different engines perform might make the decision easier ( and maybe JLR-NA will expand the options for 2021). I've "built" both four and six cylinder versions on the configurator up to HSE equivalent specifications with all of the off road options except for the silly looking external storage box. It won't be that much of a burden to drive the D5 diesel for another year but I'm sure I'll eventually order a new Defender.

 

[blackangie]

I'm going to wait until I can read some road tests of the new Defender before I finalize my order. I'm hoping that reading about how the different engines perform might make the decision easier ( and maybe JLR-NA will expand the options for 2021). I've "built" both four and six cylinder versions on the configurator up to HSE equivalent specifications with all of the off road options except for the silly looking external storage box. It won't be that much of a burden to drive the D5 diesel for another year but I'm sure I'll eventually order a new Defender.

Hybrid will be released in 2020 and prob a straight 6 diesel also.

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

 

[mpinco]

I would consider a new Defender diesel (US market) and think very hard about Active Diff with Torque Vectoring since the rear brake service interval is now so short, significantly increasing long term maintenance cost. If the latest Traction Control is much better than I likely would not go for that package. I would save $1100 + 6 to 8 rear brake jobs over 100K miles. A better alternative would be to turn off Torque Vectoring forever.

 

[Blaise]

I realize mpinco is trying to be helpful, but we are still talking about a different vehicle with a similar system.

Now if the post was 'be aware that buying the Torque vectoring system may cause shortened brake service intervals, which may be expensive if you have it done at a dealer' and I would have been just happy

 

[blackangie]

I would consider a new Defender diesel (US market) and think very hard about Active Diff with Torque Vectoring since the rear brake service interval is now so short, significantly increasing long term maintenance cost. If the latest Traction Control is much better than I likely would not go for that package. I would save $1100 + 6 to 8 rear brake jobs over 100K miles. A better alternative would be to turn off Torque Vectoring forever.

We have no idea how long the brake service interval will take on the new defender or how much it will cost at Indies.

Have you thought about why torque vectoring exists onroad and off and results of turning it off?

If you dont want, dont order it, its an option

Mate, you really dont take a hint of the whole keep on subject thing (read first post again)

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

 

[mpinco]

I realize mpinco is trying to be helpful, but we are still talking about a different vehicle with a similar system.

Now if the post was 'be aware that buying the Torque vectoring system may cause shortened brake service intervals, which may be expensive if you have it done at a dealer' and I would have been just happy

The 12K miles was for a Discovery Sport. The L494 was 18K miles. The feature is the same across the models and the Defender. As I said, YMMV but in any case that is significantly less than a standard braking system, which was my heads-up. Life cycle maintenance cost will be much higher. People ********** about LR4 timing chains.

 

[blackangie]

Back to subject please

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk