New Defender Rage/Hate Thread

[EricTyrrell]

It's somewhat of a straw man to say they are more complex and throw out alignment/bushing checks/maintenance. It's a factual statement, but a bit disingenuous since it's very uncommon and very sporadic in nature. Relative to the discussion, it's very minor and not 'complex'.

Have you wondered why Toyota has gone IFS on the majority of the Landcruisers and Hiluxes? How often do they require alignments? I didn't wheel my 2001 Tacoma hard, but got after it here and there, 150,000 miles, the only time I needed to align the front end is when I lifted it, took an hour and less than $100.

It's only one factor, but it must be mentioned because it exists.

I don't wonder. I know why. The compromise varies depending on the particular design and execution of it. On an IFS only vehicle, the complexity disadvantage is less than an LR3/4 for example, which involves 4-wheel alignments, control arm-replacement every 60k, and being very DIY unfriendly. That last point is important to people who value and even might enjoy hands-on work, or who see the labor costs as unjustified.

 

[Pilat]

IS without cross linked air suspension is not superior.

Yes it is. You separate the two wheels from each other and you get rid of a lot of unsprung weight.

 

[nickw]

I have never had issues with fuel injection. I did wake up to one corner of the air suspension down while camping. A recycle resolved but.....

I had an Audi SQ5 and didn't have any issues with my air suspension on it but did with a window regulator......I hear Audi is reverting back to manual windows....

J/K, I know what your are saying...but the newer rigs are pretty good. The new Ram Rebel has air suspension and it's super cool, raise, lower and payload leveling....win win at the expense of MINOR complexity issues....

 

[EricTyrrell]

IS without cross linked air suspension is not superior.

IS with cross-link is genius, but it's not a complete emulation, and it really sucks when it fails, especially when off-road.

 

[Pilat]

I'm amazed you people aren't crying foul because it should have drum brakes in all corners. Wired, preferably.

 

[EricTyrrell]

I had an Audi SQ5 and didn't have any issues with my air suspension on it but did with a window regulator......I hear Audi is reverting back to manual windows....

J/K, I know what your are saying...but the newer rigs are pretty good. The new Ram Rebel has air suspension and it's super cool, raise, lower and payload leveling....win win at the expense of MINOR complexity issues....

They shouldn't. Electric windows are absolutely necessary for a luxury vehicle. Manual windows are counter to the definition of luxury vehicles. The compromise of potential repair costs and failures is worth it, in that case.

I agree. The RAM Rebel is very cool. Like diesel customers, hopefully they understand the ins and outs of their purchases. I've also enjoyed the improved ride and off-road ability of the non-air, but still coil sprung 1500 models, but they don't tow with the same stability as the leaf-sprung models. Those damn compromises again..

 

[Pilat]

LOL, yeah, I'm pretty sure electric windows isn't solely in the realm of "luxury vehicles" anymore. It trickled down to normally priced cars decades ago.

 

[EricTyrrell]

I'm amazed you people aren't crying foul because it should have drum brakes in all corners. Wired, preferably.

I know it's tongue and cheeck, but I'd agree if there were a disadvantage, some compromise, to disc-brakes, but this is one instance where I can't think of any. I don't think cost is even a concern anymore. Can you think of any?

 

[EricTyrrell]

LOL, yeah, I'm pretty sure electric windows isn't solely in the realm of "luxury vehicles" anymore. It trickled down to normally priced cars decades ago.

No one said it's solely in the realm. Only that it's definitely in the realm, and optional for others. We're still in a transition period. Many vehicles still offer it as an option at the non-luxury market level, even if most do opt for it.

 

[Pilat]

I think the advantages of disc brakes outweigh its shortcomings (getting wet, for instance).
Just like the advantages of IS outweighs its shortcomings (not easily lifted etc.). The shortcomings of solid axles - especially at the front isn't outweighed by the positives (simple, easily lifted).

 

[nickw]

It's only one factor, but it must be mentioned because it exists.

I don't wonder. I know why. The compromise varies depending on the particular design and execution of it. On an IFS only vehicle, the complexity disadvantage is less than an LR3/4 for example, which involves 4-wheel alignments, control arm-replacement every 60k, and being very DIY unfriendly. That last point is important to people who value and even might enjoy hands-on work, or who see the labor costs as unjustified.

It's probably just the bushings, not the entire control arm....although Im not an expert with the LR3/4's? A jeeps SA suspension arms probably won't last much longer without getting bushing replaced either.

It doesn't have to be mentioned because it's a straw man that does not practically limit a vehicles reliability.

Being DIY friendly is absolutely a concern, but it is on most any new vehicle and is a totally different point. If that's what you want, you need to step back to the 50's....those are much simpler than even a 1990's Defender. I'd agree that I think the 90's rigs, in general, hit the sweet spot between user serviceability and technical advancement, but for most folks that take stuff into a dealer, myself included, I don't care.

Again, Toyota deemed it appropriate for many of the HD landcruisers.....front IFS is much more complex that rear IFS....

 

[EricTyrrell]

Yes it is. You separate the two wheels from each other and you get rid of a lot of unsprung weight.

It depends on what criteria you define "superior". Unsprung weight is an important consideration, but not the only consideration. A luxury vehicle, to address NVH, absolutely. A race car, obviously. A utility vehicle, maybe, maybe not. A Volvo, who's reputation is largely built upon the niche of safety, sure.

 

[Pilat]

No one said it's solely in the realm. Only that it's definitely in the realm, and optional for others. We're still in a transition period. Many vehicles still offer it as an option at the non-luxury market level, even if most do opt for it.

Your wording made it seem like it was mostly in that realm. Your previous wording was akin to saying that "disc brakes is the realm of luxury cars". It isn't really, is it? It's something that is a commodity - something both you and mpinco has railed against.

 

[nickw]

They shouldn't. Electric windows are absolutely necessary for a luxury vehicle. Manual windows are counter to the definition of luxury vehicles. The compromise of potential repair costs and failures is worth it, in that case.

I agree. The RAM Rebel is very cool. Like diesel customers, hopefully they understand the ins and outs of their purchases. I've also enjoyed the improved ride and off-road ability of the non-air, but still coil sprung 1500 models, but they don't tow with the same stability as the leaf-sprung models. Those damn compromises again..

Tongue in cheek playing of the other poster saying he had no problems with EFI but air-sus failed....alluding to air-sus being less reliable, N=1. Was outlining my N=1....

 

[Pilat]

It depends on what criteria you define "superior". Unsprung weight is an important consideration, but not the only consideration. A luxury vehicle, to address NVH, absolutely. A race car, obviously. A utility vehicle, maybe, maybe not. A Volvo, who's reputation is largely built upon the niche of safety, sure.

Not really. Not when it comes to the physics of it. Find me some examples of solid axle (on the front) cars currently in production. 10 should do.

There is a reason you can't find them, even though a solid axle front is much, much simpler, and much, much cheaper - especially if you make it out of cast iron.

I am only asking you to give me a list of 10 cars. Solid axles are cheaper, so there should be plenty of examples out there.