DieselRanger
Well-known member
If you had spent any time on other New Defender-related threads, you'd understand.
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New Defender Rage/Hate Thread
- Thread starter DieselRanger
- Start date
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DieselRanger
Well-known member
nickw
Adventurer
The several military platforms that use IS point against this.
nickw
Adventurer
It's more utilitarian than the Jeep if you plan on hauling or towing anything....View attachment 552446
I think it's really sad that the new Defender will just never be this cool! It had potential, but they instead created a vehicle with no purpose- it's not nice enough to be luxury, not utility enough to be useful- the Jeep is at it's core utilitarian, you can upscale it to luxury if you like, but you will never forget it's core mission. Whereas the new Defender is just enough of each to be great at neither- just a bland, sad Kia Soul on steroids without all the reliability of an actual Kia at 2 or 3Xs the $. I do think they will look cool at the Starbucks though and in line at the private school picking up little Madison like the D4 and 5s and RRs do now. I kid the LR crowd, actually I think I saw 1 one time on a wet gravel road on my way back to actual trails- once I got back there, there were plenty of 7-slot grills- the LR had headed the other direction-
DieselRanger
Well-known member
None of those pictures look like anything I haven't driven in my D5. We just have more trees in Colorado. And it's usually wetter.
I've driven DV and other areas in the DSW plenty when I lived in LA and Vegas. Did it in an old lifted gen 1 4Runner, did it in a bone stock 2005 Subaru Outback XT (jumped great), did it in a lifted 2001 Blazer ZR2, and a bone stock Cherokee XJ, and a bone stock 2010 T2 Touareg. Mines, bombing ranges, roadless areas. Razor-sharp caliche and rock ledges, invisible sand pits with dust as fine as baby powder. Climbs where you only see sky over the hood and you scramble for every inch. Have I done every trail out there? Nope. Neither have you.
Nothing I wouldn't take my D5 on or a New Defender on out there. But honestly, the way you generally revert to ad hominems in your arguments, I certainly wouldn't want to do it with you.
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For those of you who are reporting posts...with a title like this, this thread is bound to go sideways soon or later. So enjoy it while it last, I am not going to start moderating it. I will just close it when it goes too far.
You forgot to mention in this thread that there was at least one LR4 with your group. You posted pictures of it in the “post pictures of your Land Rover” thread. So your Hummer broke, which by the way is IFS and IRS, and the old defender broke. How’d the LR4 fair? Wait, it must have been fine because if something had happened you would have been all over it telling us how pathetic they are. But instead you merely didn’t say anything about it at all. So stop with all your BS, you have been caught now go away with your head down in shame.
How is this story the Jeep must be better than my LR3. Only modifications to to LR3 at the time of this trip, 285/60R18 Terra Grapplers and IID Tool for extra lift. Stock Jeep Wrangler Rubicon two door. Place, Poughkeepsie Gulch. Took my LR3 up very slow with my wife spotting me but cleared all rocks without scraping underbelly once. Some guys on ATVs came down and told me to use our winch since we had it but I told them we were not stuck just taking our time to not ruin anything. Got up without incident. Stopped at the top to take pictures when along comes a stock Jeep Rubicon, but they are so much better than my LR3 cause they have solid axles right. They got maybe 10 feet before needing me to winch them up because their solid axle was dragging across the rocks, could they have picked a better line, maybe but much different line makes things get tippy pretty quick. So obviously the Jeep was much better than my LR3 right?
REDROVER
Explorer
hunmer Didn’t break down, it had some oil leak because jiffy lube didn’t put oil gasket on properly and it was 2 min fix,
Defender didn’t break down,
it was absolutely drivable.
However that one lr4 took 10 tries and all the effort to follow us with its low profile tires.
I am not biased.
Defender didn’t break down,
it was absolutely drivable.
However that one lr4 took 10 tries and all the effort to follow us with its low profile tires.
I am not biased.
REDROVER
Explorer
I didn’t say LR4 didn’t make the trail,
I said lr4 had to try many many times pushing it hard to make it,
Wanna bring it with us next time ? U are more than welcome,
I am saying it’s fragile.
Don’t get your hearth rate up,
Sometimes We enjoy giving new Land Rover owners hard time.
I said lr4 had to try many many times pushing it hard to make it,
Wanna bring it with us next time ? U are more than welcome,
I am saying it’s fragile.
Don’t get your hearth rate up,
Sometimes We enjoy giving new Land Rover owners hard time.
Attachments
Blaise
Well-known member
This is clearly just trying to get a rise out of people. You post this then say not to get your heart rate up? I've been in the backcountry in Death Valley five times now, including up Echo.
There's opinion and then there's lying. hahahahhahha
After 40+ pages it's probably time to summarize the points made, primarily along the lines of utility vs the latest upmarket products.
The original Defender
- Produced between 1983 and 2016, was primarily a utility vehicle for a variety of users, from farmers to work crews. It was simple to maintain and simple to fix in the field.
- The Defender underpinnings/drivetrain/powertrain were the basis for the Discovery I and Range Rover Classic.
- Engine electric connection was a virtual single wire for diesels.
- Simple cooling systems, field repairable.
- Land Rover went through the disaster of Britian's nationalization of their auto industry and the eventual breakups, 4 owners and financial stress, limiting investment- Investment in the Defender ended in the mid 90's while production ended 2016. Investment money went to the Discovery I. The Defender was withdrawn from the US market in 1997 due to lack of investment/upgrades
- The Defender, Discovery I and RRC were solid axle suspensions, some using Boge self-leveling units. The RRC eventually went to air suspension. Vehicles of this generation shared many design aspects across the industry. Field repair was as close as your local used parts yard or corner supplier. They rarely broke and would go for 500K miles before service.
- 3 differential drivetrains that could easily be upgraded with ARB lockers both front and rear
- Standard brake systems, easily rebuilt by owner, long lasting.
- Traction control began to appear on the RRC
- 15/16" wheels with large range of tires available. Easy to find off-road profiles.
- Large aftermarket support by a variety of vendors
- Lower maintenance intervals but less fragile
- Low maintenance cost as many repairs can be completed by owner.
The new LR3/LR4/Discovery3/Discovery4/Upmarket Defender/really the entire product line today.
- Produced from 2006 to today, targeting upmarket consumers, moving away from utility, farmers, work crews. Significant increase in complexity, limited field repairability.
- Supporting comfortable long range drives and higher speeds.
- Nürburgring ring testing highlights the move to urban vs rural usage.
- Large brake rotors to accommodate power/speed/braking.
- Torque vectoring brake systems, roughly 1/3rd the life of older systems, high brake dust/pollution.
- 19" to 22" wheels with low profile tires. Off-road tires hard to find.
- Fashion statements creep into product line. LR adopts BMW 'design language' adoption where all vehicles begin to look the same, just different sizes.
- High computer control chassis with tools such as IIDT for diagnostics/resets. Mostly not field repairable.
- Moving to even higher software control with OverTheAir updates.
- Infotainment systems highly reliant on urban communication systems
- Hybrid powertrains that are not field repairable. Engine management systems now run from front to back of chassis.
- Sophisticated cooling systems requiring multiple radiators and air duct routing.
- All air-suspension with increasing levels of traction control and the option to add a rear locker as a 'HD' option. Front locker was offered by Arb but is rare and no longer available?
- Traction control is intended to replace the need for lockers, works most of the time but has limited capabilities when all four wheels loose traction. Cases are loose gravel/rock, wet grass, slick mud.
- Majority of volume is traction control only, no lockers.
- Air suspension lifetime is in the range of 150K miles, depending on use profile and environment, some higher mileage and some lower mileage. Early issues at 30K miles have been experienced.
- Coil conversions are available once the air suspension is 'worn out', retain traction control with maintenance similar to ABS
- FASKIT Air Suspension systems (and others) are available to defeat the LR air suspension system in the event of failure to allow getting off bump stops.
- Longer maintenance intervals but more fragile.
- High maintenance cost as dealer support is required.
- Limited aftermarket support as LR defines options.
- Overall LR product line is moving upmarket with even the new Defender, targeting the urban customer and the occasional off-road trip, no longer targeting utility/rural market.
I'm sure I missed some important differentiators but thought I would put this out there before the thread is locked.
The move by LR upmarket has been seen in the past. MG was the entry level British sports car with Jaguar the high-end. Austin Healey slotted their car between them. Today Tata has collapsed Jaguar and Land Rover into a single design team to enable 'efficiencies' (really redundancies) and cross-brand technology adoption as they move both upmarket, opening the bottom to Ineos Granadier and others.
The original Defender
- Produced between 1983 and 2016, was primarily a utility vehicle for a variety of users, from farmers to work crews. It was simple to maintain and simple to fix in the field.
- The Defender underpinnings/drivetrain/powertrain were the basis for the Discovery I and Range Rover Classic.
- Engine electric connection was a virtual single wire for diesels.
- Simple cooling systems, field repairable.
- Land Rover went through the disaster of Britian's nationalization of their auto industry and the eventual breakups, 4 owners and financial stress, limiting investment- Investment in the Defender ended in the mid 90's while production ended 2016. Investment money went to the Discovery I. The Defender was withdrawn from the US market in 1997 due to lack of investment/upgrades
- The Defender, Discovery I and RRC were solid axle suspensions, some using Boge self-leveling units. The RRC eventually went to air suspension. Vehicles of this generation shared many design aspects across the industry. Field repair was as close as your local used parts yard or corner supplier. They rarely broke and would go for 500K miles before service.
- 3 differential drivetrains that could easily be upgraded with ARB lockers both front and rear
- Standard brake systems, easily rebuilt by owner, long lasting.
- Traction control began to appear on the RRC
- 15/16" wheels with large range of tires available. Easy to find off-road profiles.
- Large aftermarket support by a variety of vendors
- Lower maintenance intervals but less fragile
- Low maintenance cost as many repairs can be completed by owner.
The new LR3/LR4/Discovery3/Discovery4/Upmarket Defender/really the entire product line today.
- Produced from 2006 to today, targeting upmarket consumers, moving away from utility, farmers, work crews. Significant increase in complexity, limited field repairability.
- Supporting comfortable long range drives and higher speeds.
- Nürburgring ring testing highlights the move to urban vs rural usage.
- Large brake rotors to accommodate power/speed/braking.
- Torque vectoring brake systems, roughly 1/3rd the life of older systems, high brake dust/pollution.
- 19" to 22" wheels with low profile tires. Off-road tires hard to find.
- Fashion statements creep into product line. LR adopts BMW 'design language' adoption where all vehicles begin to look the same, just different sizes.
- High computer control chassis with tools such as IIDT for diagnostics/resets. Mostly not field repairable.
- Moving to even higher software control with OverTheAir updates.
- Infotainment systems highly reliant on urban communication systems
- Hybrid powertrains that are not field repairable. Engine management systems now run from front to back of chassis.
- Sophisticated cooling systems requiring multiple radiators and air duct routing.
- All air-suspension with increasing levels of traction control and the option to add a rear locker as a 'HD' option. Front locker was offered by Arb but is rare and no longer available?
- Traction control is intended to replace the need for lockers, works most of the time but has limited capabilities when all four wheels loose traction. Cases are loose gravel/rock, wet grass, slick mud.
- Majority of volume is traction control only, no lockers.
- Air suspension lifetime is in the range of 150K miles, depending on use profile and environment, some higher mileage and some lower mileage. Early issues at 30K miles have been experienced.
- Coil conversions are available once the air suspension is 'worn out', retain traction control with maintenance similar to ABS
- FASKIT Air Suspension systems (and others) are available to defeat the LR air suspension system in the event of failure to allow getting off bump stops.
- Longer maintenance intervals but more fragile.
- High maintenance cost as dealer support is required.
- Limited aftermarket support as LR defines options.
- Overall LR product line is moving upmarket with even the new Defender, targeting the urban customer and the occasional off-road trip, no longer targeting utility/rural market.
I'm sure I missed some important differentiators but thought I would put this out there before the thread is locked.
The move by LR upmarket has been seen in the past. MG was the entry level British sports car with Jaguar the high-end. Austin Healey slotted their car between them. Today Tata has collapsed Jaguar and Land Rover into a single design team to enable 'efficiencies' (really redundancies) and cross-brand technology adoption as they move both upmarket, opening the bottom to Ineos Granadier and others.
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Blaise
Well-known member
A few factually inaccurate statements for the 06+ list:
-Wheel sizes range from 17", not 19".
-The TC system works great. And you can't compare a factory TC system to aftermarket lockers. Compare stock for stock please.
-You can service and air suspension, and 'normal' suspension has similar life before work is required. I've owned dozens of non-EAS vehicles and 'traditional' suspension is not maintenance-free at 150k miles. The vast majority of EAS failures are due to lack of maintenance as there are some additional items to keep an eye on.
No need to lock the thread. It's literally for people to dump their hate.
-Wheel sizes range from 17", not 19".
-The TC system works great. And you can't compare a factory TC system to aftermarket lockers. Compare stock for stock please.
-You can service and air suspension, and 'normal' suspension has similar life before work is required. I've owned dozens of non-EAS vehicles and 'traditional' suspension is not maintenance-free at 150k miles. The vast majority of EAS failures are due to lack of maintenance as there are some additional items to keep an eye on.
No need to lock the thread. It's literally for people to dump their hate.
- Yup - 17" through 22" although in the US it has only been 18" through 22"
- Comparing the various forms of traction control, whether reverse ABS or lockers is a comparison point.
- Air suspension becomes a reliability issue at mileage increases. The linked ExpPortal post of air to coils highlights why. It was worn out at 150K miles. Worn out as in needing significant attention. If you have any under-armor maintenance becomes a read headache. My 95 RRC air suspension has been changed to coils. My 2011 LR4 saw an overnight left front sag that resolved itself after a reinflate in the morning. Not a failure but a heads up data point.
- Solid axle suspensions go a very long time. My Scout was at 400K miles and only needed shocks, an easy replacement/upgrade.
The thread is praise and hate, a discussion of comparisons. There are differences between the generations of LR products.
One aspect I didn't mention is lifetime cost. The increase complexity and fragility of the vehicles is driving maintenance to the dealer. At some point the cost will be an issue for the entire industry and I wouldn't be surprised to see volumes move to leases with built in warranty cost, albeit at much higher cost to the consumer.
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