New Defender Rage/Hate Thread

[Lovetheworld]

It's a mischaracterization of the Jeep to say that it's simply a heritage vehicle- solid-axles, Coil Springs and ladder frames are grounded in the past sure, because they work, but on top of that is a modern vehicle with every convenience and safety feature most people would ever really need. All the while wrapped in one of the most iconic designs in the history of the automobile.

Are you kidding? The Jeep Wrangler got a one-star NCAP safety rating! Any new Chinese car gets a lot better than that!
You CANNOT maintain ladder frame chassis and be as safe as a modern SUV or any normal car. It will never work.
And therefore it is not a modern car, even though you can put on modern gadgets.

Offroaders want the old style, so it is easy to modify and better offroad.
But for companies it is getting increasingly harder to sell the old style, especially if your main market is NOT the US or Australia.
Because the rest of the world only buys the old style trucks when they really need them.

So after making boxes on ladder chassis for 70 years, that aren't selling that well, it is not surprising that they made a choice at some point to modernize it.
Outside the US, any box on a ladder chassis does not sell well to the regular public.
And since the old Defender was never sold in the US, and the Australian market, much like the rest of the world, switched to Landcruisers and Nissans, the market is very small.

Now, they are making a new vehicle that they can sell to people that would otherwise buy SUVs.
It may be more "Lifestyle" than true off-roader, but it makes sense for the company.

Please realize that there are very few countries where it works to sell the old recipe and where they are not all buying Japanese stuff.
The US market in which a lot of pickup trucks and also classical 4x4s are sold (such as the Wrangler) is in no way similar to the rest of the world.

 

[nickw]

It's a mischaracterization of the Jeep to say that it's simply a heritage vehicle- solid-axles, Coil Springs and ladder frames are grounded in the past sure, because they work, but on top of that is a modern vehicle with every convenience and safety feature most people would ever really need. All the while wrapped in one of the most iconic designs in the history of the automobile.

The LR looks rather bland to me- especially from the front. Given their history you'll have to forgive me if I'm a bit cautious about the multitude of computers and ECUs in the Defender- can't imagine what could go wrong with LR electronics, and all of that is underpinned by an architecture that while I'm sure makes the LR ride better than the Wrangler, but it also limits the capability off-road and ability to modify it through the aftermarket.

You said it yourself, iconic design....thats why it looks the way it does, not due to functional need.

Look at Toyota...they moved on from the FJ40 based on design and functional requirements. They also dropped SFA close to 35 years ago on mini trucks and 20+ years on cruisers....

Even Merc revised the G over the years....same can be said for Nissan.

None of those manuf were tied to a look or any kitschy emblems and designed elements but rather what worked.

I love old trucks and 4x4s (like old Jeeps and my FJ40), I love new trucks with retro paint jobs and throwback themes, I like new trucks with a nod to their heritage (new Defender) but dont care for rigs that are typecast for the sake of it.

PT cruiser, Chevy SSR, modern Ford Thunderbird, etc. come to mind as well.

*Edit - Toyota isn't perfect either, gotta include FJ Cruiser to the Kitschy list....

 

[rlynch356]

Before everyone goes NCAP Crazy... here are the NHTSA results for the 2020 Unlimited https://www.nhtsa.gov/vehicle/2020/JEEP/WRANGLER%2520UNLIMITED/SUV/4WD#safety-ratings-frontal
It's 4 stars for frontal and 3 for roll over. Side is not listed but probably low.

You'll probably say the defender is better, Yes the new Defender is better, since its a unibody car, the structure is more rigid and fairs better in crash tests..
I have not seen a new defender in real life but.. i don't think it will change my mind about them, I am clearly not in the target demographic for this car, even though i have 2 Now Classic defenders..

 

[mpinco]

If people read the entire thread you would see that we discussed the 'safety' aspects of vehicle sales volumes and that NCAP is not the be-all-end-all of design decisions. In the end you have to sell product to make a profit to stay in business, period. EVERY vehicle design is a process of decisions and trade-offs that require the input of many disciplines, to include the customer as the potential buyer. For many NCAP is at the bottom of the list while style and fun is at the top of the list, government regulation be damned. The EU is a good example of those competing product demands even as they increase regulation. The EU use to be dominated by small cars but the latest volumes are driven by ........... SUV's. Jeep is growing sales with targets of 25,000 units. Land Rover has collapsed as has Toyota.



Looks like volumes are converging despite a range of NCAP ratings. Why is that? Could it be that some attributes are at the bottom of the buyers list? Could it be that some designs capture buyers wants and needs better despite being 'modern'? What the hell is modern anyway? Just a set of attributes defined by government regulation and the latest technology trends? As an engineer I see financial pain and corporate death with blind allegiance to restricted design language/goals. Call it 'modern' or call it whatever you want but unless your understand the customer you are destined for the trash bin of history. Been there, done that early in my career. If there is a a group of car manufacturers that would understand that any better that would be the British automotive sector.

Perspective: I'm not in automotive design but have been in product design and development investments that ended in less than successful products. The common thread of failed efforts? Over-design, late to market, overly complex. I can think of one new product that exhibits some of those issues ........

 

[nickw]

Before everyone goes NCAP Crazy... here are the NHTSA results for the 2020 Unlimited https://www.nhtsa.gov/vehicle/2020/JEEP/WRANGLER%2520UNLIMITED/SUV/4WD#safety-ratings-frontal
It's 4 stars for frontal and 3 for roll over. Side is not listed but probably low.

You'll probably say the defender is better, Yes the new Defender is better, since its a unibody car, the structure is more rigid and fairs better in crash tests..
I have not seen a new defender in real life but.. i don't think it will change my mind about them, I am clearly not in the target demographic for this car, even though i have 2 Now Classic defenders..

Every bit as capable as your 4runner, more comfortable and you don't have to duck when you see a rover buddy and your driving your 4runner I think your are exactly the demographic they are after TBH....guys who love rovers but want something a bit more civilized for the modern world without giving up capability.

 

[nickw]

If people read the entire thread you would see that we discussed the 'safety' aspects of vehicle sales volumes and that NCAP is not the be-all-end-all of design decisions. In the end you have to sell product to make a profit to stay in business, period. EVERY vehicle design is a process of decisions and trade-offs that require the input of many disciplines, to include the customer as the potential buyer. For many NCAP is at the bottom of the list while style and fun is at the top of the list, government regulation be damned. The EU is a good example of those competing product demands even as they increase regulation. The EU use to be dominated by small cars but the latest volumes are driven by ........... SUV's. Jeep is growing sales with targets of 25,000 units. Land Rover has collapsed as has Toyota.

View attachment 561611

Looks like volumes are converging despite a range of NCAP ratings. Why is that? Could it be that some attributes are at the bottom of the buyers list? Could it be that some designs capture buyers wants and needs better despite being 'modern'? What the hell is modern anyway? Just a set of attributes defined by government regulation and the latest technology trends? As an engineer I see financial pain and corporate death with blind allegiance to restricted design language/goals. Call it 'modern' or call it whatever you want but unless your understand the customer you are destined for the trash bin of history. Been there, done that early in my career. If there is a a group of car manufacturers that would understand that any better that would be the British automotive sector.

Perspective: I'm not in automotive design but have been in product design and development investments that ended in less than successful products. The common thread of failed efforts? Over-design, late to market, overly complex. I can think of one new product that exhibits some of those issues ........

That graph certainly shows a shift in consumer buying around 2005, at least away from SUV's....but if you look at the last 10 years and I'd say Jeep is fairly flat while LR is trending up. Graphs like this certainly don't paint a picture of market share, lots of underlying economics that need to be considered....

 

[EricTyrrell]

Every bit as capable as your 4runner, more comfortable and you don't have to duck when you see a rover buddy and your driving your 4runner I think your are exactly the demographic they are after TBH....guys who love rovers but want something a bit more civilized for the modern world without giving up capability.

Lol. Wut? By my approximation, about 95% of Rover people I've heard from are disappointed in the luxury Defender.

 

[EricTyrrell]

You CANNOT maintain ladder frame chassis and be as safe as a modern SUV or any normal car. It will never work.

Wrong.

Toyota responds to consumer demand: Upgraded Landcruiser 70 Series now 5 star

Leading independent vehicle safety advocate, the Australasian New Car Assessment Program (ANCAP), today announced a maximum 5 star ANCAP safety rating for the upgraded Toyota Landcruiser 70. The Toyota Prius also achieved top marks.

www.ancap.com.au

Not that anyone buys an off-roader for a high relative degree of safety. Everyone knows that despite the Wangler's poor NCAP, it' still light-years ahead of older 4x4s. This is the kind of stupidity that would worry about the lack of luxury features in a Miata.

 

[EricTyrrell]

2021 Yukon design is a breath of fresh air from LR's hybrid Gucci/Playskool design language.

Also offers 17" wheels. Guess it's not impossible after all..

The 2021 Yukon Has a Turbo-Diesel, Skid Plates, and a Lot of Off-Road Potential - Expedition Portal

What SUV has a 34-degree approach angle, an optional diesel motor, skid plates, and an air-suspension that raises up to 4 inches? If you read the title, you’ll know it’s not a new Land Rover, Ford, or even Toyota, but rather GMC’s 2021 Yukon. Trust us, we’re just as surprised as you. They...

expeditionportal.com

 

[nickw]

Lol. Wut? By my approximation, about 95% of Rover people I've heard from are disappointed in the luxury Defender.

Broken record as always...guys were disappointed when the Discovery 1 came out, same for Discovery 2, same for LR3/4, Toyota 80 series, 100 series, 200 series and almost every model of Jeep as well, on and on and on...your old enough you should remember all this. It's like clockwork....I wouldn't expect anything different with this Defender, give it some time. Also remember this Forum and your handful of buddies are .001% of market share.

 

[Todd780]

2021 Yukon design is a breath of fresh air from LR's hybrid Gucci/Playskool design language.

Also offers 17" wheels. Guess it's not impossible after all..

The 2021 Yukon Has a Turbo-Diesel, Skid Plates, and a Lot of Off-Road Potential - Expedition Portal

What SUV has a 34-degree approach angle, an optional diesel motor, skid plates, and an air-suspension that raises up to 4 inches? If you read the title, you’ll know it’s not a new Land Rover, Ford, or even Toyota, but rather GMC’s 2021 Yukon. Trust us, we’re just as surprised as you. They...

expeditionportal.com

I'm liking the new GM SUV twins. The window design on the C pillar could be better. It looks a little convoluted with the little kick up. But, I like how the front ends tie in together with the pick ups. I don't think they've done that since 2006.

 

[EricTyrrell]

Broken record as always...guys were disappointed when the Discovery 1 came out, same for Discovery 2, same for LR3/4, Toyota 80 series, 100 series, 200 series and almost every model of Jeep as well, on and on and on...your old enough you should remember all this. It's like clockwork....I wouldn't expect anything different with this Defender, give it some time. Also remember this Forum and your handful of buddies are .001% of market share.

I remember very well. Every generation has earned the criticism more than the last. Now we're at the point where many LR clubs are shrinking due to a lack of interest in the later models. Some have taken up the LR3/4, but not enough, and for good reason. Many have reluctantly jumped ship to Jeeps. The clubs that are thriving, ironically seem to be doing so from the mass importation of ROW Defenders.

The 200 series deserves criticism as much as the LR3/4, even though its problems are very different.

Contrary to your claims, I see very few enthusiasts complaining about the JL. It was launched to near universal praise.

 

[mpinco]

That graph certainly shows a shift in consumer buying around 2005, at least away from SUV's....but if you look at the last 10 years and I'd say Jeep is fairly flat while LR is trending up. Graphs like this certainly don't paint a picture of market share, lots of underlying economics that need to be considered....

SUVs will continue to dominate in Europe
Surging demand for SUVs and crossovers in Europe and around the world is the industry's growth trend. High-riding models of all shapes and sizes are reliably delivering strong sales and solid profits that more attention-grabbing trends such as car-sharing, electric propulsion and autonomous driving aren't and won't for a long while.

"It's a global phenomenon that started in the U.S, spread to Europe and China and is now shaping emerging markets such as Brazil, India and Southeast Asia," said Felipe Munoz, a global analyst for JATO Dynamics.

Jeep just sold a record number of redesigned Wranglers

• Jeep Wrangler sales set an all-time record in March.
• The 2018 Wrangler was redesigned and equipped with high-tech features.

Do we need to mention JLR's $4 Billion loss and reorganization to downsize / right-size?

 

[nickw]

I remember very well. Every generation has earned the criticism more than the last. Now we're at the point where many LR clubs are shrinking due to a lack of interest in the later models. Some have taken up the LR3/4, but not enough, and for good reason. Many have reluctantly jumped ship to Jeeps. The clubs that are thriving, ironically seem to be doing so from the mass importation of ROW Defenders.

The 200 series deserves criticism as much as the LR3/4, even though its problems are very different.

Contrary to your claims, I see very few enthusiasts complaining about the JL. It was launched to near universal praise.

Regarding the new JL, fair, but it got it's fair share of criticism on the forums. But turn back to JK and previous.....

 

[mpinco]

.......... Now we're at the point where many LR clubs are shrinking due to a lack of interest in the later models. ...........

Have also noted that trend. When JLR collapsed Jaguar and Land Rover into virtually one product team the demise of the off-road segment was written. Dealers went from 4WD enthusiast to sleek 'modern' showrooms with marble floors.