New Expedition Camper - Overland Explorer
- Thread starter HowardH
- Start date
IdaSHO
IDACAMPER
Truck looks great Howard, and I'm excited to see this project come together.
:ylsmoke:
As for tires, everything I've heard and read about 19.5's is that airing down can cause some severe tire damage as the sidewalls simply are not designed for it.
Im currently on the hunt for a newer super duty, have my eyes on '05+ V10 powered SRW 1-tons, and the best option I've been able to find for tires for our setup is running a 20" wheel, and LT295/65R20 tires.
Toyo makes the AT2 (which I LOVE) in the LT295/65R20, and it specs out as a 35x12 load E tire, with a 4080 lb load rating (SRW)
Overall the load rating, the size, the comfort of a load E (vs F or G) and the ability to air down seems like a great option.
:ylsmoke:
As for tires, everything I've heard and read about 19.5's is that airing down can cause some severe tire damage as the sidewalls simply are not designed for it.
Im currently on the hunt for a newer super duty, have my eyes on '05+ V10 powered SRW 1-tons, and the best option I've been able to find for tires for our setup is running a 20" wheel, and LT295/65R20 tires.
Toyo makes the AT2 (which I LOVE) in the LT295/65R20, and it specs out as a 35x12 load E tire, with a 4080 lb load rating (SRW)
Overall the load rating, the size, the comfort of a load E (vs F or G) and the ability to air down seems like a great option.
pugslyyy
Expedition Vehicle Engineer Guy
I run the Toyo M608z on 19.5 rims from ATW on my Fuso - probably a very similar rim just centered differently.
ATW rims run great for me, and the M608Z is a sturdy tire. I haven't experimented a lot with airing them down (I tried it this year in the Saline Valley), only letting 20psi or so out of them. The sidewalls are so sturdy I'm still not sure how much airing down will really do.
If you air one down completely it will pop of the bead - but I've never had a problem reseating one on the vehicle (just need to jack it up so the tire is not on the ground).
EDIT: The only time I popped one off a bead was intentionally, when I was adding balance beads to the tires.
ATW rims run great for me, and the M608Z is a sturdy tire. I haven't experimented a lot with airing them down (I tried it this year in the Saline Valley), only letting 20psi or so out of them. The sidewalls are so sturdy I'm still not sure how much airing down will really do.
If you air one down completely it will pop of the bead - but I've never had a problem reseating one on the vehicle (just need to jack it up so the tire is not on the ground).
EDIT: The only time I popped one off a bead was intentionally, when I was adding balance beads to the tires.
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charlieaarons
Explorer
If weight alone is the problem in sand then why does my 27000 lb Unimog go up and down dunes?
The answer is proper tires with a tall sidewall and low pressures, made easier with beadlocks and a CTI system.
Charlie
The answer is proper tires with a tall sidewall and low pressures, made easier with beadlocks and a CTI system.
Charlie
You answered your own question. The problem is weight, the answer, at least one of them, is "proper tires". Everything is trade-offs and compromises. Less 1% of my time will be in sand. As much as I might like to think different the majority of time will be on paved roads or maintained gravel. For my case I don't think that tall heavy tires with the associated noise, cost, tire wear, lift kits, possible brake modifications, etc are worth the benefits.
Regarding the weight. Would you be happier if I said the problem was weight as calculated by pounds per sq inch of tire footprint?
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charlieaarons
Explorer
Regarding the weight. Would you be happier if I said the problem was weight as calculated by pounds per sq inch of tire footprint?
Weight/sq in foot print AT lowest safe pressure.
The only reason I even posted was because you seemed quite unhappy with the total inability to negotiate sand.
Charlie
I am glad you did. Experience shared is particularly valuable to me.
Mundo4x4Casa
West slope, N. Ser. Nev.
Howard,
There is a reason that the Euro style Expo rigs have tall and wide, deflatable tires, many on bead lock rims and with on board air up systems. It's the footprint at low pressure, to increase 'floatation' that has the most to do with success on sand. Even if you are not expecting to traverse much sand, you should at least have that capability of a real Expo Camper. Otherwise, you just have a street running Expo rig for the look. My older super singles on my XTC had the best footprint of all the high floatation tires I've had. @ a low of 18 pounds, they barely sunk in on deep dune sand, spreading the ground pressure over a lot of real estate, even with a 10,400 pound gross load. I can't get photobucket to link a pic I have of the 375/65R16 tires on 12 inch wide rims, but just know that with the camper on and with the pressure lowered to 20 pounds, the footprint was 17.5 inches wide and 15 inches long. With those tall sidewalls that is a massive amount of floatation that allowed me to run the dunes. Even with non-bead lock wheels I've never had my truck tires come off the rim running at low pressure; and there has been a lot of low pressure running: hundreds of miles at a pop. The very last tire I would try to run is a non-bead locked 19.5, or any .5 tire. To see for yourself, inspect a .5 wheel with the tire off to see how much safety bead is available.
This experience was built up over a 50 year go round with some kind of 4WD.
It seems that you have little to no off road experience to rely on, so my advice, if any, is to
1. do what you want to do;
2. make your own mistakes;
3. correct for future endeavors.
jefe
There is a reason that the Euro style Expo rigs have tall and wide, deflatable tires, many on bead lock rims and with on board air up systems. It's the footprint at low pressure, to increase 'floatation' that has the most to do with success on sand. Even if you are not expecting to traverse much sand, you should at least have that capability of a real Expo Camper. Otherwise, you just have a street running Expo rig for the look. My older super singles on my XTC had the best footprint of all the high floatation tires I've had. @ a low of 18 pounds, they barely sunk in on deep dune sand, spreading the ground pressure over a lot of real estate, even with a 10,400 pound gross load. I can't get photobucket to link a pic I have of the 375/65R16 tires on 12 inch wide rims, but just know that with the camper on and with the pressure lowered to 20 pounds, the footprint was 17.5 inches wide and 15 inches long. With those tall sidewalls that is a massive amount of floatation that allowed me to run the dunes. Even with non-bead lock wheels I've never had my truck tires come off the rim running at low pressure; and there has been a lot of low pressure running: hundreds of miles at a pop. The very last tire I would try to run is a non-bead locked 19.5, or any .5 tire. To see for yourself, inspect a .5 wheel with the tire off to see how much safety bead is available.
This experience was built up over a 50 year go round with some kind of 4WD.
It seems that you have little to no off road experience to rely on, so my advice, if any, is to
1. do what you want to do;
2. make your own mistakes;
3. correct for future endeavors.
jefe
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jefe, thanks for the input. I have zero off road experience. In fact I would love to learn of some places in the US particularly the western US where you can truly travel off road.
I would also be very interested in a CTIS system but they don't seem readily available and very expensive.
I would also be very interested in a CTIS system but they don't seem readily available and very expensive.
I'd recommend 20x10 super singles, and something in the 335/80 r20 range. For most applications, beadlocks are overkill. I like having them, but they add complexity. Both width and height will improve offroad performance, but you'll really want some flotation (width) on that to perform well in sand. Height also helps.
If you are under 4k camper weight, and 12-13k rig weight, there are some options in that tire size that don't require going all the way to 41s. I like my 41s, but they are expensive, hard to balance, and don't really start to shine until you are in tough conditions, tougher than most people with a camper that size would seek out. If I find a suitable tire at my weight (14.5k) in the 38" range, I'll likely make the switch.
I'd consider adding a retaining plate to your flatbed, near the front spring mounts. That design forces the bolts to do all of the side to side movement retention. It can be squeeky/loud, but also a touch dangerous. A bolt on uhmw lined plate is one solution.
Here's a good discussion of the issues.
http://forum.expeditionportal.com/threads/170525-Captured-spring-cabin-mounting-help-needed
If you are under 4k camper weight, and 12-13k rig weight, there are some options in that tire size that don't require going all the way to 41s. I like my 41s, but they are expensive, hard to balance, and don't really start to shine until you are in tough conditions, tougher than most people with a camper that size would seek out. If I find a suitable tire at my weight (14.5k) in the 38" range, I'll likely make the switch.
I'd consider adding a retaining plate to your flatbed, near the front spring mounts. That design forces the bolts to do all of the side to side movement retention. It can be squeeky/loud, but also a touch dangerous. A bolt on uhmw lined plate is one solution.
Here's a good discussion of the issues.
http://forum.expeditionportal.com/threads/170525-Captured-spring-cabin-mounting-help-needed
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Regarding ride, I switched my front coils out for Carli 2" lifted, f250 linear rate coils. The spring rate is very similar and they offer a much smoother ride. I shaved about 1" off the spring to get the ride height correct (1" lift). My truck is a 2016, and 11-16, everything was an exact match between 250-550 on front suspension. Not sure if thats true for the 2017s.
I'd also highly recommend switching out the rear shock mounts. Ours sheared after minimal use, its really a terrible design from ford. Again, atleast for 11-16 trucks, the 250 rear shock mount from Carli works. We did have to drill two new holes to get it to fit, but it wasn't too much work.
Darwin
Explorer
What tires have you found that fit that requirement? Everything I have seen is either a light truck tire, highest load I have seen is a 37x17x13.5 Toyo MT at 4300 lbs for tire. Going up from there puts in the 20 inch wheel MPT territory. I did find some Pirelli Ps22 335/80/20 same or similar pattern to the xzl brand new for $300 plus shipping but they are a 41 inch tire, it seems there is no middle ground. The XZL is what the turtle V expedition camper uses in that size range.
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What I was saying is there are more options in the 3200-3500 load/tire range but I think I was underestimating his total rig weight at 12k.
I'm guessing that rig is probably 9700lbs bare with the diesel and long flat bed on thinking about it more, so a 4K camper pushes that to close to 14, which again pushes you into MPTs.
I have goodyears g275 MSAs (41") on mine. I like them quite a bit better than than the conti offering, but they are a lot harder to find and not always available, which limits their appeal. They also have all the attendant balancing issues every big tire has. MPTs do offer a 37" tire, the Goodyear doesn't. Other factor is speed rating, the MPTs are only rated to 63 I believe (maybe it was 68), which isn't great for a domestic rig with anticipated freeway miles. The goodyears are rated to 81.
Still, with all that said, I'd want a tall, wide, super single on a rig like that unless I only planned on pavement and maintained fire roads.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Mundo4x4Casa
West slope, N. Ser. Nev.
Howard,
After reading parts of your thread again I want to say,
1. Listen not to those so called experts, who may be just parts replacers, or trying to sell you something, who have never built a rig like you are building.
2. Listen to the gents posting above who are miles ahead of you and have already trod the same trail you are taking. I can smell the hands-on depth of experience of the three or so listed above. It's a smell that has no odor: oh, maybe 90w gear oil under the fingernails.
3. Consider just buttoning up your project and purchasing a small built up trail rig to tow behind your camper for all that 'off-road' activity. With the stiffening up of Ford truck frames the last 6 years or so, your 5 series will already work on dirt and rocks as long as the axles don't get twisted up too much. This may defray the steep and constant learning curve in dealing with undulating, slippery, or bottomless terrain, and dragging over it with a 15K pound boat anchor.
This is not advice, only options.
jefe
After reading parts of your thread again I want to say,
1. Listen not to those so called experts, who may be just parts replacers, or trying to sell you something, who have never built a rig like you are building.
2. Listen to the gents posting above who are miles ahead of you and have already trod the same trail you are taking. I can smell the hands-on depth of experience of the three or so listed above. It's a smell that has no odor: oh, maybe 90w gear oil under the fingernails.
3. Consider just buttoning up your project and purchasing a small built up trail rig to tow behind your camper for all that 'off-road' activity. With the stiffening up of Ford truck frames the last 6 years or so, your 5 series will already work on dirt and rocks as long as the axles don't get twisted up too much. This may defray the steep and constant learning curve in dealing with undulating, slippery, or bottomless terrain, and dragging over it with a 15K pound boat anchor.
This is not advice, only options.
jefe