New Here - Building Up my '79 Chevy C20

[Ira]

Hi, All,

I've been lurking for a while, and finally decided to actually join and ask for advice .

I have a 1979 Chevy C20: Serendipity Jane (pictured in the Badlands). She's a quad cab, camper special with 3/4-ton axles (spring in front, leaf in back). I've done some great driving in her (last summer out from Indiana, where I live, through Illinois and Iowa to South Dakota, Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, New Mexico, Texas, Oklahoma, Louisiana, Mississippi, Tennessee, Kentucky, and back home: 5,000+ miles), much of that on forest service roads and local highways, and she's been a champ. But I want to make her into a proper expedition vehicle, and I was hoping to get some advice.

So, here's what I'm working with:

Rebuilt V8 350 and rebuilt carb (both in great shape),
2WD 3 spd + granny low manual trans
Long bed (which I had rhinolined)
Straight body, with some relatively serious rust above all four wheels
Single-wheel rear axle.

And here's what I'm thinking of doing:

Swap out 2WD and 3 spd for 4WD and 5 spd ($1200ish with used parts/labor)
Add slide-in camper ($400-600 for something functional and bare-bones)
Swap out fenders and bed sides ($400ish with used but solid parts)
Add deer guard ($100ish used)
Fix power steering, which is the only thing that doesn't work properly right now ($200ish with used parts/labor)

And here are my questions:
(1) I'm definitely swapping the 5 spd trans in, because that'll improve my mpg and engine life substantially, but how much difference does the 4WD make for a truck of this size? (Please keep in mind it's a massive boat; the old crew cabs are really like two full-size cabs, in a way that the newer ones just aren't.)
(2) Does anyone have experience with both a slide-in and a built-in roof-top tent? What are the pros and cons, in your experience? (Please keep in mind that I don't have a fortune to spend; I'm buying everything used, doing some work myself, and would need to pay someone to do the fabrication for that.)
(3) How important is it to install a winch? I've noticed a lot of people mention it, and I've seen The Gods Must Be Crazy, but I was wondering what my likelihood of needing it might be--I plan on doing some offroading when all is said and done, but not a great deal; mostly, the roughest roads I'll be on will be forest service and bureau of land management stuff, which can be a little ugly, but it's certainly not rock-crawling or fording streams.
(4) Any engine mods that seem like a must?
(5) Any suggestions in general? I don't see a lot of these older C20 Crew Cabs around, so I'm looking at all this as kind of an investment. It's definitely going to be a hell of a truck when I've got it finished!

Thanks a lot for any thoughts you have to offer.

Best,

Ira

 

[poriggity]

Sounds like you are on the right track... The truck will work well, with some modifications. Do you plan on converting the truck to 4x4? One bonus to the truck, is you will have ALOT of room to work with.
Scott

 

[Ira]

Thanks, Poriggity. I'm thinking about it, but undecided. The friend who's swapping out the trans will do the axle as well for another $250, which seems reasonable to me.

I had a 4x4 Jeep Cherokee a few vehicles back, and appreciated the 4WD at times, but so far, I haven't felt a lot of need for it with the Chev. I'm thinking about it more for completeness' sake, I guess. You know?

Ira

 

[Rot Box]

Nice! I love the older GM's and the extra seat is icing on the cake :drool:

1. 4wd makes more difference than I can even begin to put in words on the crew cab long beds :bike_rider: It is by far the best improvement you could make to your pickup--well worth the effort.

2. I've had a RTT, camper and also a shell/cap. I love my FWC it has beds, plenty of room for gear, a stove you don't have to set up, a fridge (no ice WOOHOO!) and also a heater. I paid $250 for my camper and it needed some love but I have used it a lot and been really happy with it.

3. A winch is on my list of important upgrades--remember little Toyota's and Landrovers won't even begin to budge these things when they're stuck in a mud hole :coffeedrink:

4. I wouldn't do too many engine mods. Run the stock Quadrajet and rebuild the motor it with only the best parts and keep it close to stock. That way it will work great offroad and serve you for a very long time. I prefer to stick with stock manifolds for reliability but that's all my personal preference.

5. Find a Dana 60 for the front it will pay off in the long run. If an NV4500 is not in the budget find an SM46 (4 speed like yours) with an NP205 t-case that has the fixed yoke.

Welcome and keep us posted with updates!

Andrew


P.S. here is my friends buildup. It might be a little more extreme than what you had in mind, but I thought I'd share.

82 GMC-6.2 Turbo Diesel-soon to have 4 speed- Hallmark popup camper: http://rockymountainextreme.com/showthread.php?t=73214&page=3

 

[Ira]

Thanks for the great suggestions, Andrew! I'm heading out to the wrecker's Saturday morning, so I'll write again with what I find . In particular, I'll definitely look for a 4x4 option.

The Dana 60s I can find nearby on craigslist are all out of my range right now--700 and up--but I'll keep an eye peeled! Also, I'm looking now for an sm465, but am not totally sure about that. My concern is that I'd really like something with overdrive; my mileage is awful. I think some of the '83-'87 4x4s had a manual w/od, so that's what I'm going to look for most of all.

I love your friend's build, by the way; it's definitely more extreme (read: expensive ) than anything I'll be able to do, but super-sweet. Also, is the Alaskan on your Ford a pop-up? I was looking for one myself, but it seems like they're mostly out West, so I'm outta luck on that :-(. I'm looking at an 11.5 ft '78 Huntsman at present: heavy and bulky, but about as close to a tow-behind as I'm ready to get at present.

Also, I had another question (for anyone): Right now, I have coil springs up front, which is great, because it's a very smooth ride. Will I need to swap those out for leaves when I do the 4x4 conversion?

And thanks again, Andrew--you sent me on a two-hour craigslist/wikipedia/truck forum research binge .

Ira

 

[chilliwak]

I think your best bet is to find a 4by4 donor vehicle at about the same year as your truck. That way you can get the axles,shift linkage, cross-members and the proper gearbox/transfer-case and drive shafts, that should bolt right up to your truck. A winch is a good idea too. It does not take much to make a easily passable logging road into hell; just a quick rain shower will make it slick as ice. Also, if you are on a budget, think about making a canopy/camper for your truck. It is easy to build, and that way you can get it just the way you want. Have a look at my thread,
http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52844
building your own canopy/camper and it should give you an idea. Good luck on your rig and keep us posted with pics. We all love pics!:victory:

 

[Terrainist]

For an alternative perspective.. as I get older, I have come to regard vehicles as disposable. Sort of like disposable lighters. Some vehicles are keepers and worth some wrench time, key word being "some". But by and large, making a career out of wrenching on an old truck when there are so many better things to do... well, I'd rather do something else. Being up to my armpits in truck with no end in sight and money being spent that will not get returned has lost its appeal.

Make sure you want to work on it as there are millions and millions of vehicles out there. There is sure to be one that is more ready to go for you in your price range. This truck has taken you on 5,000 miles worth of adventure. I recommend you stay on the adventure and away from the wrench and a money pit as much as possible. Fuel mileage is a deal breaker anymore, an absolute must. But this comes from many years of fighting the gas gauge.

You say the MPG's are "awful". Yes, they are. I takes two gallons just to warm the thing up (6 dollars just to start it?). Every time you look at the gauge it is closer to being empty. Fuel will be back at 4 dollars a gallon, it's inevitable. And then it will go higher. Don't kid yourself if it is going to become a liability. So, if you can go from 9 miles to the gallon to 17, the effect on your wallet will be like the world lifted off your shoulders. Unless you have the money to burn. If so, nevermind. A different trans or overdrive won't do that much for your mileage, plus one or two. That's about it.

You are getting good advice going the other direction, so I'm giving you different.

 

[dwh]

I prefer to stick with stock manifolds for reliability but that's all my personal preference.

I prefer stock manifolds for most wheelers as well, not just for reliability (the bolts don't get loose like headers and they don't blow gaskets as easily either), but also for TORQUE!

I learned this from a guy who specialized in racing engine headwork. The higher flow rate of a header increases horsepower, but the smaller tubes of a stock exhaust manifold increase -scavenging- which is important for low end torque:

http://www.popsracing.com/tech/exhaustscavenging.pdf

Also, a dual-plane intake is nice. Why dual-plane? Air velocity. At lower RPMs, you want the air to flow faster to get a more complete charge into the cylinder on intake, and to aid scavenging on exhaust. The dual-plane intake routes the air from the carb primaries to a small runner, and from the secondaries to a large runner (more or less). More low end torque.

So what I do is use the best stock manifolds I can find - for instance Ford, Chevy and Dodge all made some very tasty dual-plane cast-iron intake manifolds for various engines. Then, I do a port match on the manifolds and the heads:

http://www.automedia.com/Port_Matching_Your_Intake_Manifold/res20040801pm/1

While doing the port matching, you can also polish the exhaust runners, but you don't polish the intake runners (just grind off the really high spots) because you want a bit of the rough and tumble to stir up the mixture for more low end torque (for a high horsepower engine, you would polish the intake runners to get max flow):

http://www.angelfire.com/space/neon/porting.html

Just port matching the manifolds and polishing the exhaust runners will create a very noticeable low end torque increase.

Then of course, the cast-iron also makes the block stiffer.

 

[Rot Box]

Also, I'm looking now for an sm465, but am not totally sure about that. My concern is that I'd really like something with overdrive; my mileage is awful. I think some of the '83-'87 4x4s had a manual w/od, so that's what I'm going to look for most of all.

Also, is the Alaskan on your Ford a pop-up?

Will I need to swap those out for leaves when I do the 4x4 conversion?

Again you likely won't get more than a mpg or two with an o/d trans. It is really nice to keep your rpm's down though. There was a different 4 speed put in the GM's during the 80's but it did not have an over drive. It also did not have a granny gear. It was more or less a close ratio 4 speed and it was very rare and known to be weak. Your best bet is the NV4500 out of a 92 or newer GM truck if you must have over drive. You will need an adapter for the t-case as the later models dropped on the driver side unless you get crazy and run a Ford front axle--but that's a whole other story

Alaskans are really fun. They are pop-ups and very well built--however they are VERY heavy too. I notice a difference in fuel mileage compared to the "lighter" weight FWC.

I would use leafs for cost and simplicity which brings me to my next thought...

Terrainist was right there are a million other vehicles out there with everything you want and more already on them. If you think it may turn into a retirement project or money pit I would move on. That said 4x4 conversions on these trucks are very straight forward if you are handy with tools and if you use stock GM donor parts. If you choose not to use a Dana 60 I would be willing to bet you could convert it for around $1000 if you play your cards right.

So long as you have a small block gas v8 in that truck I don't see you ever getting great mileage. I justify my poor mileage (~15mpg) with the fact that I don't have a car payment or full coverage insurance and my truck is very cheap to repair and maintain for the most part. From the outside looking in that may sound dumb but its working for me so far LOL

Anyway I really hope I don't sound like I'm trying to persuade you one way or the other I'm just throwing out ideas based on my experience with these pickups. I just know that a truck like yours is something you can be very proud of when it is built the way you like it.

Andrew

 

[gloriavoxdei]

It sounds to me that with the type of wheeling you do a Dana 44 would work just fine and will cost you a fraction of what a Dana 60 would. You could also use a 10 bolt but go for an 89 - 91 unit out of a blazer or suburban since they are 30 spline axles and the earlier ones are 28 spline. I also agree that buying a parts truck with 4wd would be the easiest way to do the swap. I don't recommend the OD 4 speed being that they only came in 1/2 ton models, they are alsoVERY uncommon so good luck finding one, I've never seen one. Great truck, I have a K30 dually like yours and it's awesome as long as you stay out of tight places, look forward to seeing your build.

 

[gloriavoxdei]

As a note, a figure 8 NP205 t-case will bolt right to the NV4500 with no mods but the clutch linkage won't work without an adapter bellhousing because the hookup on the stock bellhousing for a GM model is on the pass side and the SM465 is on the driver's. Use a hydraulic clutch and problem solved.

 

[Ira]

Thanks again, all y'all, for your insights!

I did end up doing the swap--for a rebuilt 700r4 with an NP 208--and it was an absolute doozy. Nine-degree weather and six inches of snow as a buddy and I did the swap out on the street in front of my house in Indiana last winter. Also, we pulled 1/2 springs from the donor Suburban I bought, and those bowed out in California, so I ended up spending another grand on the suspension after all, just to get home.

Terrainist--you were right: it's a money pit. Well, it was, anyhow. Now, it's an awesome trail rig that's taken me another 7,000 miles in the last half year, and is good to go indefinitely many more. So, the whole affair was a real learning experience.

Now, though, I've moved out to Oregon and am looking into an Alaska trip, and I've decided I just can't afford to tool around getting 10 mpg (with the camper in) for another 10,000 miles. So, I'm selling Serendipity Jane to a guy in Arizona, who's flying up here tomorrow to drive her back down. In her place, I bought an '86 Nissan 4x4 with a '96 engine, and a lightweight cabover-canopy that's just a shell with a platform for a queen-sized bed. That's the new build (for which I'll start a new thread, of course ).

I just wanted to get on here to say thanks again for all your thoughts--they really helped a lot, as I was trying to figure out what I wanted and what made sense (not necessarily the same). By way of thanks, here's a link to pics of Serendipity Jane in action .

https://picasaweb.google.com/116274307014038023099/SerendipityJane

 

[chilliwak]

Hey Ira, I am glad you had the chance to rebuild your truck into a 4 wheeler. I am sure you learned alot about the mechanics of these old vehicles. I can understand you being sorry about the gas mileage. Mine only gets about 8mpg or less. But as I live in Europe, I am always amazed by how cheap fuel is in North America when I come to visit every summer. Good luck on your trip and your new rig...

 

[Ira]

Thanks, Chilli! I learned a *ton*, and I wouldn't trade the experience for the world. I don't regret doing it at all . Also, your camper top looks fantastic! I'll start a new thread for my new rig, and I feel like I've gotten a lot out of reading your build-story. Not least: I want a big window up front!!

 

[chilliwak]

Ira, I would be more than happy to extend any info to you about building a canopy. There are a few things to consider when putting in a big plexiglass window in regards to the amount of space around the outside edge so that the window can `move´ itself without being broken. I hope to hear from you soon. Happy trails....:ylsmoke: