NEWB choosing a base vehicle: pickup vs 4runner

[4Rescue]

I didn't even realize you were a fellow Oregonian. Excellent

So the older trucks have stronger frames? I had no idea. I had read that later tacomas had stronger frames than early tacomas, so I figured that the pickups were equal to or worse than the early tacomas.

As far as I kow the Older Torsion bar trucks have the World truck/Hilux frame, as in: at that time Toyota wasn't making different trucks for different markets (except for the Solid axles and Diesel motor options in other countries).


Hey, currently my rig is on 31's with open diffs as well. It goes places it probably shouldn't and it's plenty fun. Again, you're going to have both so there really is no down side to either decision.

Cheers

Dave

 

[sami]

seriously, two great choices.

I am forever going to be a 1st gen 4runner freak.... so really, i can't see how one could choose a pickup over a 4runner... but, i don't hold it against ya.

I agree with 4Rescue that the EarthRoamer XV-JP would be ************ to see on a 1st gen runner.

-Jason

 

[Grim Reaper]

I would be scared of the 5:71. The higher the gear the less teeth and smaller the pinion meaning more heat. It is significantly weaker then the 4.88 especially a IFS right with the 7.5 front diff.

I would go a max of 5.29.

I'm running a 86 4Runner with 33x12.5 and NO LIFT. Ideally I would run a 33x10.5 but just got too god of a deal on the 12.5's used (4 nearly new AT's plus 2 50% or better matching spares for $350 :wings: ). The trick is stock size and offset rims and hammer the cab seam and lower fender back.

Here is the killer, Unsprung weight. My 33x12.5's are 69lb on a set of deal option AR outlaw II's. The stock Sr5 Chrome steels with 235x 75 x15 were 62lb. A 33x10.5 on the aluminum rims would probably be the same weight as the stock set up. This is a BIG part of acceleration and braking.

I have a totally stock 4.88 front diff assembly that came out of a 94 V6 auto with the 31 inch tire option. My Rear is a factory E-Locker out of a 96 4Runner regeared to match the front. I chose 4.88 because it is just a hard higher then the stock gears and stock size tires. My Speedo runs a little over 1mph fast at 65mph. I plan to put a LOT of hwy under that truck getting out west and felt that would give me the best economy. I am getting 18 in town (I live 3 miles from work) and when I can get it out on the hwy I consistently pull 22mpg or better.

Motor is rebuilt I have the 268 Engine builder cam and pretty well stock other then that. It does OK and I pull a trailer that weights about 750lb. I notice the trailer more in the brakes then the motor. Now I have not pulled at elevation so your mileage may vary.

I'm Sure Dave will see this soon. He has a few more mods and lives at a higher elevation. I believe he runs 5.29s and 33's. I think he is fairly happy with the power on his motor with that gear and tire size. He has a Flip Pac or a Wildernest on his so really about the same weight as you are talking with the Magnolia. He would be good source for comments about using the truck.

I went from a 1975 GMC Jimmy Roadster (full removable top from windshield back). I loved driving that with the top off.

I have never removed the hard top on my 4Runner and I have a soft top sitting in the garage for it. I really am to the point of failing to see the point. The roof is not coming off over the driver seat so I don't get any more out of it then just pulling the pop up sun roof out. My wife drove a 79K5 Blazer that she stole (from me) and again we never removed the top for the same reasons. I really am to the point of regretting not getting a 90-95 4door with power sun roof. With 2 kids and 2 dogs I think it would have served my needs better. The second doors would make it easy to set the Fridge behind the driver seat when out on my own and make it easy to get to.

I would really not place my decision on that removable top. I really like the top and the removable top was something I really thought I had to have and really hasn't panned out. Its a hassle to get off and the 4door has better ventilation with the door windows then the fiberglass top has. I think the 1st gen 4Runner have a lower cargo rating then the 4 doors too boot. My 86 is rated something like 270lb of cargo.

Honestly I think if you don't need the back seat for passengers you would better off with what you have since you already have it and possibly a Utility shell with side doors or some custom bed cover for gear. That extra wheel base is not that much and the extra cargo room you get from it is probably more of a plus then a negative. I think this is a grass is always greener want that you have especially if you have a sunroof.

My Next Expo truck is going to be one of the three: Highly modified 87-91 3/4 ton burb with a permentnt sleeping bunk, a FJ80 prefferably with facotry E-Locker option or a crew cab Tundra or taco. I have a camper the family uses and this would pull the camper and keep the vehicle count in my driveway down with the bigger trucks. My wife may well end up with a FJ80 sooner then later to get rid of the 454 burb in the driveway and the Honda she drives now till I get a few years and some miles on the 4Runner and ready to part with it.

 

[sami]

I would go a max of 5.29.

i run 5.29's with my 37" MTR's on 17" steel wheels... i'd say that geraing'd be overkill for a 33" tire. 4.88's would be more in the 33" range. But i agree anything over 5.29'd be ridonkulous.

..... This is a BIG part of acceleration and braking.

CHEAP and EASY solution to incredible braking for these rigs: late 90's 4x4 brake booster. I got mine out of a '98 Taco. Dual Diaphram booster will give you a huge piece of mind for stopping power! (i locked up my 37's going 75mph, resulting in saving my life... and braking a front leaf!!) talk about some braking power(leaf had a fracture in it already

Honestly I think if you don't need the back seat for passengers you would better off with what you have since you already have it and possibly a Utility shell with side doors or some custom bed cover for gear.

As much as i love 4runners, i do agree with this. Not to mention, 3-4 people, plus gear for an extended trip in a 2.4 equipped vehicle... yikes.

 

[GroversYota]

I didn't even realize you were a fellow Oregonian. Excellent

Same here, I missed it comepletely. Are you in my neck of the woods?

I would be scared of the 5:71. The higher the gear the less teeth and smaller the pinion meaning more heat. It is significantly weaker then the 4.88 especially a IFS right with the 7.5 front diff.

I would go a max of 5.29.

I'm running a 86 4Runner with 33x12.5 and NO LIFT. Ideally I would run a 33x10.5 but just got too god of a deal on the 12.5's used (4 nearly new AT's plus 2 50% or better matching spares for $350 :wings: ). The trick is stock size and offset rims and hammer the cab seam and lower fender back.

Here is the killer, Unsprung weight. My 33x12.5's are 69lb on a set of deal option AR outlaw II's. The stock Sr5 Chrome steels with 235x 75 x15 were 62lb. A 33x10.5 on the aluminum rims would probably be the same weight as the stock set up. This is a BIG part of acceleration and braking.

I have a totally stock 4.88 front diff assembly that came out of a 94 V6 auto with the 31 inch tire option. My Rear is a factory E-Locker out of a 96 4Runner regeared to match the front. I chose 4.88 because it is just a hard higher then the stock gears and stock size tires. My Speedo runs a little over 1mph fast at 65mph. I plan to put a LOT of hwy under that truck getting out west and felt that would give me the best economy. I am getting 18 in town (I live 3 miles from work) and when I can get it out on the hwy I consistently pull 22mpg or better.

Motor is rebuilt I have the 268 Engine builder cam and pretty well stock other then that. It does OK and I pull a trailer that weights about 750lb. I notice the trailer more in the brakes then the motor. Now I have not pulled at elevation so your mileage may vary.

I'm Sure Dave will see this soon. He has a few more mods and lives at a higher elevation. I believe he runs 5.29s and 33's. I think he is fairly happy with the power on his motor with that gear and tire size. He has a Flip Pac or a Wildernest on his so really about the same weight as you are talking with the Magnolia. He would be good source for comments about using the truck.

.

Grim, your 4runner build is proof positive that it can be done well on the cheap, and pretty similar to what I would put together, except I'd have the RTT instead of a trailer, and a mild lift. The availability of used e-lockers already geared for 33's is a huge bonus, and the mpg is a big draw for us as well. I thought they would get much less with 33's and loaded. I was even going to build a plywood platform/cargo drawer in the 4runner before I found the tuffy on C/L.

Do you track milage regularly? I'd love to know what you're getting loaded with gear and pulling the trailer.

Hope Dave does chime in, if he has a 3.0/auto and 5.29/33's he will be the closest comparison I've found with a flip pac mounted.

possibly a Utility shell with side doors or some custom bed cover for gear. That extra wheel base is not that much and the extra cargo room you get from it is probably more of a plus then a negative.

My hope, depending on cost and the strength of the exsisting canopy roof, is to retrofit lift up sidewindows onto the original truck canopy. The opening isn't as big as the utility style, but I think it will be big enough for what we'll need.

i run 5.29's with my 37" MTR's on 17" steel wheels... i'd say that geraing'd be overkill for a 33" tire. 4.88's would be more in the 33" range. But i agree anything over 5.29'd be ridonkulous.

For a 5spd I'd agree, but with the auto you go to the next gear. 5.29's and 33's gets you close to stock in an automatic. As Grim mentioned above, his front diff is from a truck with auto trans and factory 31's, and it's 4.88. Some folks who haul heavy weight, or spend a lot of time driving up mountains go the next size up still with the auto tranny to keep the torque converter locked up. For example, Using 5.29's and 31's. It sounds like more difference than it is. There is only 173 rpm difference at 70mph between running 33's or 31's on 5.29s. Those numbers assume true 31" and 33" tires.

 

[Grim Reaper]

Same here, I missed it comepletely. Are you in my neck of the woods?




Grim, your 4runner build is proof positive that it can be done well on the cheap, and pretty similar to what I would put together, except I'd have the RTT instead of a trailer, and a mild lift. The availability of used e-lockers already geared for 33's is a huge bonus, and the mpg is a big draw for us as well. I thought they would get much less with 33's and loaded. I was even going to build a plywood platform/cargo drawer in the 4runner before I found the tuffy on C/L.

The key is gearing and rotational mass. The lighter the wheels the better the accelerations and braking. There are two lines of though on the brakes. The V6 trucks run bigger callipers. They are a bolt on as is the more powerful booster.

Do you track milage regularly? I'd love to know what you're getting loaded with gear and pulling the trailer.

I check the millage every tank. I have as yet to make a long trip with the trailer as the trailer is still in the building stages but I have logged some miles. The Millage does go down but it tracks tight to the truck and nearly the same height so minimal. I would suspect the extra wind drag on the RTT would be about the same. Honestly slowing down to 60-65 makes a HUGE improvment in MPG on these trucks. 3k is the sweet spot on the 22r for best economy and power spot. Get over that and the MPG starts to drop and lower then that and you are grabbing gears to maintain speed on hills.

Hope Dave does chime in, if he has a 3.0/auto and 5.29/33's he will be the closest comparison I've found with a flip pac mounted.

Dave has 22RE but my comparaison was more about the weight issues and handling with the larger tires.



My hope, depending on cost and the strength of the existing canopy roof, is to retrofit lift up sidewindows onto the original truck canopy. The opening isn't as big as the utility style, but I think it will be big enough for what we'll need.




For a 5spd I'd agree, but with the auto you go to the next gear. 5.29's and 33's gets you close to stock in an automatic. As Grim mentioned above, his front diff is from a truck with auto trans and factory 31's, and it's 4.88. Some folks who haul heavy weight, or spend a lot of time driving up mountains go the next size up still with the auto tranny to keep the torque converter locked up. For example, Using 5.29's and 31's. It sounds like more difference than it is. There is only 173 rpm difference at 70mph between running 33's or 31's on 5.29s. Those numbers assume true 31" and 33" tires.

Toyota always ups the gear on the autos. A stick is typically a 4.10 and a Auto is a 4.30 as the stock gear in most packages. The 31 inches gor 4.88's. The Highest factory gear in the E-Locker was the 4.56 but that was when the 3.4 came in that makes significantly more power

 

[hayduke]

Great thread. good gearing info! Got a question for you guys.. The 4.56 on the 3.4L tacomas with 31 tires are these the auto or the manual? How do you tell what gears you have. I have a 98 3.4 Ltd trd tacoma. enough about mine.

My 2 cents. Get a truck with a topper. Out fit the topper with the sweet bed setups for camping, be able to make coffee while still in the sleeping bag is of the utmost importance. get the windoors also. happy choices

 

[Grim Reaper]

Great thread. good gearing info! Got a question for you guys.. The 4.56 on the 3.4L tacomas with 31 tires are these the auto or the manual? How do you tell what gears you have. I have a 98 3.4 Ltd trd tacoma. enough about mine.

My 2 cents. Get a truck with a topper. Out fit the topper with the sweet bed setups for camping, be able to make coffee while still in the sleeping bag is of the utmost importance. get the windoors also. happy choices

I think on the 3.4 it is both. The 4.56 gear is the highest available in the E-Locker V6 Diff. I would have to check but I think the Auto tranny was changed in 96 as well and has a lower gear and lock up converter negating the need for the lower diff ratio.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=459180 Post #2 has how to read the plate to see what gear ratio and side gear count off the build tag/plate.

 

[subytoy]

I say stick with the truck. I have a 92 Xtra-cab with 188k on the original 3.0. Mine came with 4.56 gears and 31" tires. I ran 33/10.50R15 BFGs for a while, but at 8000'+ it was really anemic. I think 4.88s would be OK.

Craig

 

[4Rescue]

Same here, I missed it comepletely. Are you in my neck of the woods?




.

Nah mate I'm up in Portland. But I do spend a good amount of time in the summer down south on the Rouge and alot of the other rivers in the area.

We need an Oregon Meet and Greet, there are turning out to be more than a few of us here on the expo. Course as far as the rest of the continent is concerned we still don't have running water and we still use horse and buggies eh (and maybe that would be a good thing...)

Here's what I've done to my rig, and IMO the best quality "budget" suspension you can put on these trucks/runners. Shock choice is personal, and alot of people say skip the OME's and go to Bilistiens right off. I know from my VW days that Bili's are super nice, but I have no complaints about my OME shocks.
http://www.yotatech.com/f116/project-4rescue-120370/
Cheers

Dave

 

[GroversYota]

Toyota always ups the gear on the autos. A stick is typically a 4.10 and a Auto is a 4.30 as the stock gear in most packages. The 31 inches gor 4.88's. The Highest factory gear in the E-Locker was the 4.56 but that was when the 3.4 came in that makes significantly more power

Interesting that they only went to 4.56's, I've found more 4.88's in my hunt for some already geared to 5.29. Maybe someone elses well used and abused lockers from a taco with big tires? Back to me buying someone elses problem I suppose.

Great thread. good gearing info! Got a question for you guys.. The 4.56 on the 3.4L tacomas with 31 tires are these the auto or the manual?

I've found lots of great gearing info over at yotatech, and learned a lot by plugging different combos into this calculator http://www.grimmjeeper.com/gears.html

Abbey's Hayduke?

I say stick with the truck. I have a 92 Xtra-cab with 188k on the original 3.0. Mine came with 4.56 gears and 31" tires. I ran 33/10.50R15 BFGs for a while, but at 8000'+ it was really anemic. I think 4.88s would be OK.

Craig

It looks like that's what I'll do, most everyone says it's the way to go. I'm not even geared for 31's, so I'm going to gear so I can run 33's while I'm at it.

Nah mate I'm up in Portland. But I do spend a good amount of time in the summer down south on the Rouge and alot of the other rivers in the area.

We need an Oregon Meet and Greet, there are turning out to be more than a few of us here on the expo. Course as far as the rest of the continent is concerned we still don't have running water and we still use horse and buggies eh (and maybe that would be a good thing...)

Here's what I've done to my rig, and IMO the best quality "budget" suspension you can put on these trucks/runners. Shock choice is personal, and alot of people say skip the OME's and go to Bilistiens right off. I know from my VW days that Bili's are super nice, but I have no complaints about my OME shocks.
http://www.yotatech.com/f116/project-4rescue-120370/
Cheers

Dave

Nice write up and photos of the build up, I had no idea about the LSPV until I read that thread. I was a little alarmed to see your comment about the steering not feeling as tight. Was that resolved, or do you feel it's just part of the kit? Could the kit just be amplifying slop from wear in stock parts? I really enjoy the tight responsive steering in my truck, and would like it to stay that way.

I've seen others who prefer the Bilsteins to OME as well, but from what I gathered they were into the stiffness, and I'm looking for a smooth ride to keep fatigue down.

An Oregon meet/trail ride would be fun this summer. I'd like a tour of someone elses stomping grounds. I came to realize last year that I hadn't seen nearly enough of this great state, or even the remote portions of the area I live in. So much to be seen here, and so few sunny months.

 

[4Rescue]

Interesting that they only went to 4.56's, I've found more 4.88's in my hunt for some already geared to 5.29. Maybe someone elses well used and abused lockers from a taco with big tires? Back to me buying someone elses problem I suppose.



I've found lots of great gearing info over at yotatech, and learned a lot by plugging different combos into this calculator http://www.grimmjeeper.com/gears.html

Abbey's Hayduke?




It looks like that's what I'll do, most everyone says it's the way to go. I'm not even geared for 31's, so I'm going to gear so I can run 33's while I'm at it.




Nice write up and photos of the build up, I had no idea about the LSPV until I read that thread. I was a little alarmed to see your comment about the steering not feeling as tight. Was that resolved, or do you feel it's just part of the kit? Could the kit just be amplifying slop from wear in stock parts? I really enjoy the tight responsive steering in my truck, and would like it to stay that way.

I've seen others who prefer the Bilsteins to OME as well, but from what I gathered they were into the stiffness, and I'm looking for a smooth ride to keep fatigue down.

An Oregon meet/trail ride would be fun this summer. I'd like a tour of someone elses stomping grounds. I came to realize last year that I hadn't seen nearly enough of this great state, or even the remote portions of the area I live in. So much to be seen here, and so few sunny months.

As far as the steering goes, part of it I think is thatmy alighnment job may not have been THE best, although I'm not seeing any odd wear from the tires,and the oter thing is the oncreaded height both front and back. The back with the new springs is litteraly 5+inches taller than it was with the old springs (for an indicator, the first pic in the build thread is from over a year before Igot the new suspension, so it got a lot saggier) So It feels like maybe with the added ride heaight, and the fact that there's that heavy fG cap on the back it just feels like the butt end wags around a bit making it feel a little lass stable than the lower, baja truck style it had going on beofre. Not to men tion that the tires are big and wide so it's wanders all over just following the ruts (while 31's might be small to us, they're alot bigger than the cars that are making the ruts oin our roads). It's not that the wheel is sloppy, it's just a little more sensetive just off center, kind of like maybe my toe in adjustmernt is a bit off. If I was auto crossing, this would be awsome, but a tall narrow truck with a basket rack tends to respond differently than my VW's used to

Oregon Meet and Greet would be awsome, Hell, I'd like to go down to Moab and meet alot of the people here. better yet we should just have a World Wide meet and greet in say Queensland Australia, I know some greart places Costa Rica maybe?? Africa??

 

[DaveInDenver]

Hope Dave does chime in, if he has a 3.0/auto and 5.29/33's he will be the closest comparison I've found with a flip pac mounted.

For a 5spd I'd agree, but with the auto you go to the next gear. 5.29's and 33's gets you close to stock in an automatic. As Grim mentioned above, his front diff is from a truck with auto trans and factory 31's, and it's 4.88. Some folks who haul heavy weight, or spend a lot of time driving up mountains go the next size up still with the auto tranny to keep the torque converter locked up. For example, Using 5.29's and 31's. It sounds like more difference than it is. There is only 173 rpm difference at 70mph between running 33's or 31's on 5.29s. Those numbers assume true 31" and 33" tires.

I guess you guys mean me? I run 5.29 gears on 33x9.50 ATs and have a WilderNest, anyway. I'm rockin' a hot rod 22R-E (OK, not really, it's louder than stock, has a Engnbldr 261C cam, ported head, oversized valves and a LCE header...it's not exotic). I have a 5 speed.

I can't complain about this combination, but I also don't have much experience with 4.88 to compare against it, either. You do give up some top end speed, that can't be denied. My speedometer is not corrected and at an indicated 70MPH my actual speed is about 10% off, really going about 63~64MPH. Engine speed at a real 65MPH is right at 3,000 RPM. Like has been pointed out, you will be about 150RPM higher than 4.88. But the power band of a 22R-E puts the best RPM at around 2,700 RPM, so you are talking about a 5MPH hit at the power peak. For me it's a worthwhile trade off when in 3rd I have more pedal going up high elevation hills and I can pull mild uphills on the Interstate in 4th and 5th without too much fuss. I really wish someone would make a 5.17 ratio for Toyota, that I think would be dead nuts on for a 22R-E/33/5 speed heavily loaded truck. All the charts and stuff tell you 4.10 on 28" stock tires going to a 33" tire means 4.88. And that does get you closest to stock, but I just think the little 22R-E needs the pat on the bum above 7,000 feet and loaded to GVW that the 5.29 gives you.

However with the 22R-E or 3VZ-FE, you should never expect to keep up with traffic with a fully loaded truck. I tip the scale at 5,500 lbs with an engine at makes 130 HP (estimated). Contrast that to a modern 4Runner with a 245 HP engine, of course I'll get dropped. Don't try! Sit back, sip your coffee and enjoy the ride! I cruise at indicated 65MPH, get generally about 18 to 20 MPG and don't have to downshift much on the highway.

 

[GroversYota]

, they're alot bigger than the cars that are making the ruts oin our roads). It's not that the wheel is sloppy, it's just a little more sensetive just off center, kind of like maybe my toe in adjustmernt is a bit off.

Thanks much for the detail, it put my mind to rest!

I guess you guys mean me?.

I guess it must be you Dave, thanks for the input. I was hoping you had the 3.0 as well, but it's good to get the information.


The truck it will be. Thanks for all the input folks. I'll post photos after I make some progress.