Next Gen Land Cruiser

[T-Willy]

Which it wont because folks wont spend the dinero for a 1980's rig.

Except that...

...folks are already spending that dinero in droves for modernized 1980s rigs:

2018 Wrangler US Wrangler sales: 240,000
(2018 4Runner US sales: 140,000)

...And many of those Jeeps cost into the $50s. Gladiators into the $60s.

Could Toyota compete in that realm with a modernized 70? If Toyota wants to figure it out, Toyota will figure it out. Will they want to? I doubt it, but only time will tell. Could Toyota push the price envelope a bit for Toyota quality? Of course they can.

Meanwhile, the (LHD modernized 70 rumors) rumors are fun...

Toyota Insider Reveals Future For 86, Camry, Tacoma, And Lexus

A Motor1.com reader familiar with Toyota's agenda has shared comprehensive details not only about Toyota's future, but its premium Lexus division as well.

www.motor1.com

As for the iconic Land Cruiser, the U.S. model will reportedly be sold only with five seats as a “serious off-roader” without an emphasis on luxury. It will be offered at a significantly lower price, but its launch date is not known at this point.

LC70 concept with coil rear end and six-speed gearbox debuts at Tokyo Auto Salon

Cruiser Outfitters showcased a LandCruiser 70 concept with coil rear end and six-speed gearbox at the 2020 Tokyo Auto Salon. Read more at WhichCar.

www.whichcar.com.au

This show special, which is said to be the work of LandCruiser Chief Engineer, Sadayoshi Koyari, features a coil spring rear suspension configuration and six-speed manual ’box. Before you say that the Bundera had coil all ‘round back in the day, this set-up uses the heavy duty 9.5-inch differential, not the light duty underpinnings under the Bundera and first-generation Prado 70s.

 

[nickw]

Except that...

...folks are already spending that dinero in droves for modernized 1980s rigs:

2018 Wrangler US Wrangler sales: 240,000
(2018 4Runner US sales: 140,000)

...And many of those Jeeps cost into the $50s. Gladiators into the $60s.

Could Toyota compete in that realm with a modernized 70? If Toyota wants to figure it out, Toyota will figure it out. Will they want to? I doubt it, but only time will tell. Could Toyota push the price envelope a bit for Toyota quality? Of course they can.

Meanwhile, the (LHD modernized 70 rumors) rumors are fun...

Toyota Insider Reveals Future For 86, Camry, Tacoma, And Lexus

A Motor1.com reader familiar with Toyota's agenda has shared comprehensive details not only about Toyota's future, but its premium Lexus division as well.

www.motor1.com

As for the iconic Land Cruiser, the U.S. model will reportedly be sold only with five seats as a “serious off-roader” without an emphasis on luxury. It will be offered at a significantly lower price, but its launch date is not known at this point.

LC70 concept with coil rear end and six-speed gearbox debuts at Tokyo Auto Salon

Cruiser Outfitters showcased a LandCruiser 70 concept with coil rear end and six-speed gearbox at the 2020 Tokyo Auto Salon. Read more at WhichCar.

www.whichcar.com.au

This show special, which is said to be the work of LandCruiser Chief Engineer, Sadayoshi Koyari, features a coil spring rear suspension configuration and six-speed manual ’box. Before you say that the Bundera had coil all ‘round back in the day, this set-up uses the heavy duty 9.5-inch differential, not the light duty underpinnings under the Bundera and first-generation Prado 70s.

Take those figures and add $10 - 20k, less tech, louder, less performance....whose going to buy em besides a handful of guys on IH8MUD?

 

[T-Willy]

Take those figures and add $10 - 20k, less tech, louder, less performance....whose going to buy em besides a handful of guys on IH8MUD?

Nah. You're way, way off. There's a market and they could totally compete.

 

[tacollie]

How many 200s sold last year? 6500? I'm pretty sure Toyota could sell 10000-15000 7x series even if they were $75k or more. 25 year old me who could barely afford a 10 year old 4Runner loved the idea of a stripped down 70 series. Now I would take a 200 over a 70. They are comfy and robust. Comfort is underrated when you have a 10 hour drive infront of you. I also like the IFS and the huge amount of rear wheel travel.

 

[nickw]

How many 200s sold last year? 6500? I'm pretty sure Toyota could sell 10000-15000 7x series even if they were $75k or more. 25 year old me who could barely afford a 10 year old 4Runner loved the idea of a stripped down 70 series. Now I would take a 200 over a 70. They are comfy and robust. Comfort is underrated when you have a 10 hour drive infront of you. I also like the IFS and the huge amount of rear wheel travel.

You just pointed out the problem.....they guys that are willing to deal with a vehicle from the 1980's can't afford them. The guys that can, would rather buy a 200 or new Defender that is 10x more comfortable, your the demographic and you couldn't afford it, hence my point. A rig with 215/90R16 dweeby tires with it's engine that has less power than any modern motorcycle doesn't stand a chance. Take "most" successful young guys put a Ford Raptor and a slow, stiff, bouncy LC70 in front of him for the same (or sim) price....what does he do?

 

[redthies]

The FJ Cruiser was what Toyota offered to compete with Jeep, sales dropped. Was that Toyota losing interest or the market?

That was people finally coming to their senses and realizing that the FJ “Cruiser” was in fact NOT a Land Cruiser, and was, in fact, a hideous bloated turd with horrible ergonomics and no practical doors or visibility. That thing was a huge waste of an opportunity to knock Wrangler sales on their ass. I’m not holding my breath on Toyota bringing anything amazing to the NA market.


I just bought a 2020 Tacoma TRD Offroad premium. It already has 255/85 ST Maxx tires on it, and with 600 miles on the clock has had the dif locker engaged multiple times and used because I needed it, not just to test it. I also have a Dodge 3500 Cummins 4x4. Allow me, as a 50+ year old with a solid six figure income to say this: if there was a 70 series available here that could tow and haul somewhere in the middle of the two trucks currently in my driveway, I’d be buying one right now!! And a basic model would be just fine. The only reason I got the “premium package” in the Tacoma, is that the cab is so small and dark, without the moonroof it feels like you are in a cave.

 

[nickw]

I don't think a Raptor shopper is the same demographic and wouldn't ever be. A 70 series is coil front, leaf rear so it's still a truck intended for utility but I doubt the ride is any worse than a 3/4 or 1 ton full size (it's essentially the same configuration as a Super Duty after all) off the lot. So I think a more fair market comparison is any non-Raptor pickup or Wrangler shopper. Obviously the market wouldn't be someone shopping for a F350 who puts on an 8" lift and 20" wheels but forgetting the Toyota enthusiasts and looking at a competitive market I'd think someone shopping for a Power Wagon would be comparing a 70 series with kind of an open mind. It's got the payload, but not quite the size. But that's where I think a troop carrier configuration would stand out. Then you also draw in Suburban buyers who wish the 3/4 ton version was available. There's got to be 2,000 annual sales there.

I dunno. I've said it before, but anybody who wants a "truck" here in the US is going to step up to a fullsize since they have more room, much more payload, practically as good MPG and are much more comfortable....all for less or the same price. Any commercial user, outside of mining where they need the compact size, would rather have a truck with more payload and more towing capacity for less price.

Id firmly put the LC70 in the "niche" category where it stands alone, it's not a "performance" rig (like a Raptor), it's not particularly good offroad (like a Raptor, Power Wagon, ZR2 Bison or Jeep) it's not really "heritage" like redone FJ40 would be or the new Bronco since very few people in the US have had exposure to them. It exists due to it's simplicity, durability and size....none of which command a premium here in the US and I'd argue none are particularly marketable in this throw away society.

I can build a single cab, short or long bed F150 4x4 with a V8 with a rear locker, HD rear axle and all the goodies for less than $40k.

 

[redthies]

It exists due to it's simplicity, durability and size....none of which command a premium here in the US and I'd argue none are particularly marketable in this throw away society.

Well said, and EXACTLY what is wrong with NA culture. Nobody cares about simple, reliable products anymore. Spinner wheels and the Kardashians (I actually hate myself for even typing that word) are proof of how far this society has gone into the toilet.

 

[nickw]

That was people finally coming to their senses and realizing that the FJ “Cruiser” was in fact NOT a Land Cruiser, and was, in fact, a hideous bloated turd with horrible ergonomics and no practical doors or visibility. That thing was a huge waste of an opportunity to knock Wrangler sales on their ass. I’m not holding my breath on Toyota bringing anything amazing to the NA market.


I just bought a 2020 Tacoma TRD Offroad premium. It already has 255/85 ST Maxx tires on it, and with 600 miles on the clock has had the dif locker engaged multiple times and used because I needed it, not just to test it. I also have a Dodge 3500 Cummins 4x4. Allow me, as a 50+ year old with a solid six figure income to say this: if there was a 70 series available here that could tow and haul somewhere in the middle of the two trucks currently in my driveway, I’d be buying one right now!! And a basic model would be just fine. The only reason I got the “premium package” in the Tacoma, is that the cab is so small and dark, without the moonroof it feels like you are in a cave.

Considering the 79 (with the V8) can tow 7700 lbs, it's basically the same as the Ranger, Tacoma and Colorado so doesn't fit your use case. If we opt for the 6 -cyl diesel (the cheap option), I'm not sure what the towing on it is, but even IF it could tow the same as a Tacoma, it would be doing so with 1/2 the HP. Also, these are Aus rated capacities, based on what I've seen in the past, rigs are usually de-rated for towing in the US so I bet that 7700 lbs is closer to what the Tacoma tows....there is no getting around wheelbase regardless of how durable the platform is.

 

[nickw]

Well said, and EXACTLY what is wrong with NA culture. Nobody cares about simple, reliable products anymore. Spinner wheels and the Kardashians (I actually hate myself for even typing that word) are proof of how far this society has gone into the toilet.

Couldn't agree more. As much as I don't think they LC's would sell, I'd like to think I'd be the first one in line to buy one if they did

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

I don't think a Raptor shopper is the same demographic and wouldn't ever be. A 70 series is coil front, leaf rear so it's still a truck intended for utility but I doubt the ride is any worse than a 3/4 or 1 ton full size (it's essentially the same configuration as a Super Duty after all) off the lot. So I think a more fair market comparison is any non-Raptor pickup or Wrangler shopper. Obviously the market wouldn't be someone shopping for a F350 who puts on an 8" lift and 20" wheels but forgetting the Toyota enthusiasts and looking at a competitive market I'd think someone shopping for a Power Wagon would be comparing a 70 series with kind of an open mind. It's got the payload, but not quite the size. But that's where I think a troop carrier configuration would stand out. Then you also draw in Suburban buyers who wish the 3/4 ton version was available. There's got to be 2,000 annual sales there.

Selling 2,000 annually would be a waste of time. That is 1/55 of the Tundra's rather meager annual production 111,653 sold in 2019)

The Power Wagon has the massive production of the rest of the Rams and sharing parts with them to stay competitive. By themselves as a stand alone model they would never pay their own way.

I would love a 79... I don't see it ever happening though.

 

[nickw]

I don't think a 70 series pickup would be a good seller other than to a few enthusiast. They are all also regular cabs. I'm thinking about wagons and troop carriers, which offers a unique product. A 70 series type 4 door wagon is pretty much the down market, simple 5 seat off roader being talked about.

Fair, lots of folks talk about how much they want one and how there is a market for them....but I don't think folks are going to pay premium price for a down market rig. They also are nothing special offroad, I bet a stock Tacoma TRD would give it a run for it's money, never mind the fully locked rigs with the soft suspension like the Rubicon, Power wagon and ZR2. While I hear ya on the "wagon", it's basically what we get with any of the 4 door jeeps, the 4 runner and arguably with the 4 door trucks too and once the new Bronco comes out....

If we say they could bring it to market for less than $40k, maybe a few folks would buy it, but even then.....outside of guys like you and me, everybody would still go buy a Jeep since it's established, it's "cool" and it's going to be more comfortable and is going to perform better offroad.

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

They only sell 2,000 of the 200 series here annually, which hasn't been a waste of their time apparently.

How many low volume models do you suppose they want in the US? To pay to have certified and all that?

The Cruiser is a global truck so 2,000 here annually would be part of the larger pie. They sell around 250,000 to 450,000 Land Cruisers annually worldwide, so it's not a high volume product like Rams or Corollas even on a global scale. Ram sells as many trucks in a few years as Toyota has made of Cruisers in total since 1953.

And here comes the chicken tax if it is a pickup...

 

[tacollie]

You just pointed out the problem.....they guys that are willing to deal with a vehicle from the 1980's can't afford them. The guys that can, would rather buy a 200 or new Defender that is 10x more comfortable, your the demographic and you couldn't afford it, hence my point. A rig with 215/90R16 dweeby tires with it's engine that has less power than any modern motorcycle doesn't stand a chance. Take "most" successful young guys put a Ford Raptor and a slow, stiff, bouncy LC70 in front of him for the same (or sim) price....what does he do?

What's funny is I can afford a 200 now because I choose to buy 10 year old trucks with 100k+ miles so I can keep the extra money in savings ?
Your point is right though. I couldn't buy one 10 years ago and now that I can I won't. I think they could sell as many or more 70s than 200s if they wanted to but it would be a niche vehicle. The only thing it really offers over what we already have is payload. Like you already pointed out it would be deflated if they did sell them here. Toyota isn't going to sell diesel vehicles in the US and as far as I know the only gas motor motor in the current 70s is the 1gr. I like that motor but I don't know about it in a LC.

 

[nickw]

They only sell 2,000 of the 200 series here annually, which hasn't been a waste of their time apparently.

The Cruiser is a global truck so 2,000 here annually would be part of the larger pie. They sell around 250,000 to 450,000 Land Cruisers annually worldwide, so it's not a high volume product like Rams or Corollas even on a global scale. Ram sells as many trucks in a few years as Toyota has made of Cruisers in total since 1953.

The comparison is wrong. How many Defenders does Land Rover expect to sell here? That's the market. That's always been the market. The 4Runner/Prado and Hilux/Truck/Tacoma exist because Toyota recognized a market for cheaper 4WD trucks to sell along side the Cruiser to dirt bags and contractors.

Everything you've said has been true of Cruisers all along. They aren't more nimble than a Jeep ever was. They've always carried less than a Big 3 pickup truck. Been more expensive than a Tahoe. So why do they sell at all?

I've never personally been in sync with Land Cruisers so fully admit to not completely understanding it. I liked my FJ40 but didn't love it. Couldn't make an FJ60 work. I'm a pickup person and the 45 and 75 pickups I've been around need an XtraCab. So I appreciate them for being what they are and their history but it'll never be something I see real use or value in buying.

While the new Defender may be the same 'market', aka "offroad SUV", they are in no way comparable and I don't believe they are the same buyer, a Venn diagram of the demographic may overlap between the two a bit, but I'd say that's only once you start getting into the upper classes of 70 series wagons which gets very $$. So upper class 70 vs mid spec Defender, I bet the Defender is a 5 digit chunk of change cheaper, more capable and 10x the comfort. The Gwagon comes to mind also which has completely gone off the rails, but Merc saw the writing on the wall and starting cutting it back to something that was more palatable to the masses, bigger, faster and better handling with it's IFS.

I agree, those trucks exist for a reason, which is why they are more popular everywhere than the LC because they are so much cheaper.....so what's the point of a 70 if you can buy a Hilux for less, better mpg and more comfort...if you don't need the long term durability (and who really does)? The durability and longevity is what you are buying, two things that are lost on a market without a long term relationship with "LandCruisers", like the US.

I'm in the same boat as you, I had a very nice FJ40 that was super cool, but didn't love it, same for the 62 I almost bought, never cared for the later models 80s,100s and 200s. Loved the nostalgia, loved the history but for my life and use case, meh.