Next Gen Land Cruiser

[DCGibbs]

Toyota, with all of its heritage and reliability, would do well by taking Land Cruiser back to its similarly rugged roots.

Toyota stated down this path to be a Lux comp for Range Rover, and the Land Rover Disco. The 62 Series LC, from 1988 to 1990, was a huge improvement over the last 60 Series! Improved 3FE engine, which is destroked 2F, has EFI and Electronic Ignicition, 4 Speed Auto-Tranny with Over Drive, Electric Windows & Door Locks. It still had Locking Hubs upfront. The 62 series could run down the highway at 80mph, the 60 series maxed out at about 62mph. I was flipped off more and once.

So Toyota release the 80 Series, Different Chassis, Body - same 3FE, with a differnet Tranny... It was 800lbs heavier and seriously under powered. So Toyota rolled out the FZJ 80 Series, with the 4.5 Liter engine. This is when they introduced Leather seats, and other Lux items, like factory installed Lockers. Then came the 100 - V8, etc., and the 200. Clay Croft of Expedition Overland - has stated several times that he thinks the 200 Series "Is the best Off-highway vehicle" - but even he puts modifications on it, like ICON sepension and HD Strutes-Shocks, Larger tire& wheels, bumpers front are rear for Winches, Tire Carrier and roof racks.

TOYOTA USA reached out to the larger toyota community [Mini PU, Purest, Adventurer & Off-roaders]. In the end, after several engine and tranmission changes - it was released to the public as a chushy-plush Uppy grocery getter. No Diesel, No 5 Speed Manuel. No stripped entry level 'Hunters, Outdoors edition' [aka: Cabela's, REI, Specilized,etc.] Something you could take out to your Flyfishing Stream, Trail Head, Mtn Bike Path, - get it freaking dirting and be able to hose it out. Sorry - TOYOTA builds these units for Africa, South America, Austrilia and everywhere other than the USA. Maybe, just maybe - Lawyers were involved...just say'in.

 

[nickw]

There's a 1993 trooper carrier for sale right here, for $60k. It's been extensively reconditioned. Nice looking truck.

https://www.expeditionportal.com/fo...-the-right-upgrades-1993.213527/#post-2752286

A more loved 1985 for $40k, but has a conversion.

https://www.expeditionportal.com/fo...intercooler-pro-expedition-overlander.211049/

Surely Toyota knows there's some market for them.

Some market, sure, a sustainable market to support profits, meh.

Have you seen the prices for nice used Waggoneers, Blazers, Chalets, K20s, etc? All those have a bigger fan base than this and are about as technologically advanced as well...

 

[T-Willy]

Toyota stated down this path to be a Lux comp for Range Rover, and the Land Rover Disco. The 62 Series LC, from 1988 to 1990, was a huge improvement over the last 60 Series! Improved 3FE engine, which is destroked 2F, has EFI and Electronic Ignicition, 4 Speed Auto-Tranny with Over Drive, Electric Windows & Door Locks. It still had Locking Hubs upfront. The 62 series could run down the highway at 80mph, the 60 series maxed out at about 62mph. I was flipped off more and once.

So Toyota release the 80 Series, Different Chassis, Body - same 3FE, with a differnet Tranny... It was 800lbs heavier and seriously under powered. So Toyota rolled out the FZJ 80 Series, with the 4.5 Liter engine. This is when they introduced Leather seats, and other Lux items, like factory installed Lockers. Then came the 100 - V8, etc., and the 200. Clay Croft of Expedition Overland - has stated several times that he thinks the 200 Series "Is the best Off-highway vehicle" - but even he puts modifications on it, like ICON sepension and HD Strutes-Shocks, Larger tire& wheels, bumpers front are rear for Winches, Tire Carrier and roof racks.

TOYOTA USA reached out to the larger toyota community [Mini PU, Purest, Adventurer & Off-roaders]. In the end, after several engine and tranmission changes - it was released to the public as a chushy-plush Uppy grocery getter. No Diesel, No 5 Speed Manuel. No stripped entry level 'Hunters, Outdoors edition' [aka: Cabela's, REI, Specilized,etc.] Something you could take out to your Flyfishing Stream, Trail Head, Mtn Bike Path, - get it freaking dirting and be able to hose it out. Sorry - TOYOTA builds these units for Africa, South America, Austrilia and everywhere other than the USA. Maybe, just maybe - Lawyers were involuved...just say'in.

Huh.

 

[nickw]

Huh.

+1

 

[yoggie]

Here are a few of my own thoughts on the 70, and I think it echoes much of what has already been said. Family of 4, planning on going to 5. I have been cross shopping the 70 vs a used Rubicon unlimited. $25k gets you either one with about 100k miles on it. The vehicle will be my DD, never leave the US, and will only be used for weekend camping trips and the rare wheeling/"overlanding" trip of no more than a long 3-4 day weekend. The 70 is more durable and more reliable, but the Wrangler is way easier and cheaper to support & maintain; way cheaper and easier to modify; all while being both better on road and better off-road. If we were doing long term travel, towed a heavy trailer, or it was just 1-2 people, the results might be different. So while I love the 70, the conclusion I keep reaching is, for me and 99% of Americans (DD, occasional wheeling or weekend camping trip), the Wrangler meets their needs/requirements "better" than a 70 would, all while having a significantly lower cost ($20k? difference).

 

[redthies]

I have been cross shopping the 70 vs a used Rubicon unlimited. $25k gets you either one with about 100k miles on it.

The 70 is more durable and more reliable, but the Wrangler is way easier and cheaper to support & maintain.

The Wrangler meets the needs/requirements "better" than a 70 would, all while having a significantly lower cost ($20k? difference).

I quoted a couple of your comments to, well, comment on.

You state either one could be had used for +/- $25k. Then you state the Heep is $20k cheaper?

The Heep WILL be much cheaper to buy parts for, but you WILL HAVE TO BUY PARTS FOR IT. I traded my JKUR with 25,000 miles on it for a 100 series with 200,000 miles on it. The Heep needed more parts replaced in the 25,000 from new than the 100 did in the 55,000 so far starting at 200k, and at 200,000 the 100 drove head and shoulders better than the JKUR did brand new. Both had OME suspension and quality tires on them, so that point was equal.

 

[nickw]

I quoted a couple of your comments to, well, comment on.

You state either one could be had used for +/- $25k. Then you state the Heep is $20k cheaper?

The Heep WILL be much cheaper to buy parts for, but you WILL HAVE TO BUY PARTS FOR IT. I traded my JKUR with 25,000 miles on it for a 100 series with 200,000 miles on it. The Heep needed more parts replaced in the 25,000 from new than the 100 did in the 55,000 so far starting at 200k, and at 200,000 the 100 drove head and shoulders better than the JKUR did brand new. Both had OME suspension and quality tires on them, so that point was equal.

The mythical Toyota never needing parts. I'm a firm believer that Toyota LCs are built to an excellent standard, parts still wear out, they need maintenance (which can be expensive) and for the older rigs typically more of it and they certainly dont last idefinately. They withstand abuse well while still running to a fair standaed , I'll give them that. In all the years, including multiple Euro hi per rigs, I've never had any of them need anything prior to 25k. After 100k even the mythical LC needs ball joints, CV boot rebuilds, timing belt, etc.

 

[T-Willy]

The mythical Toyota never needing parts. I'm a firm believer that Toyota LCs are built to an excellent standard, parts still wear out, they need maintenance (which can be expensive) and for the older rigs typically more of it and they certainly dont last idefinately. They withstand abuse well while still running to a fair standaed , I'll give them that. In all the years, including multiple Euro hi per rigs, I've never had any of them need anything prior to 25k. After 100k even the mythical LC needs ball joints, CV boot rebuilds, timing belt, etc.

We've had our '92 since new. In the last five years the need for PM has really gone up. Staying in front of it costs money, but I'm also diligent. In 28 years, it's left someone stranded once (alternator), the motor still runs like new, and I don't hesitate to drive it deep into rural, remote Mexico each year.

By almost other vehicle's standards, it's on its second or third life. That's why when I buy another truck someday, I'd like it too to be a Land Cruiser. But I can't stand the luxury builds these days--so much money for so many fancy bits that will be the first things to fail. So self-defeating. No thanks.

Cloth seats, roll windows, and bomber drivetrains, please.

 

[nickw]

We've had our '92 since new. In the last five years the need for PM has really gone up. Staying in front of it costs money, but I'm also diligent. In 28 years, it's left someone stranded once (alternator), the motor still runs like new, and I don't hesitate to drive it deep into rural, remote Mexico each year.

By almost other vehicle's standards, it's on its second or third life. That's why when I buy another truck someday, I'd like it too to be a Land Cruiser. But I can't stand the luxury builds these days--so much money for so many fancy bits that will be the first things to fail. So self-defeating. No thanks.

Cloth seats, roll windows, and bomber drivetrains, please.

The previous gen Tacoma could be had with that including manual trans and vinyl floor. Get one with the 2.7 and it's pretty damn close to a Hilux or LC light, LJ70 I think (forget the designation).

That was the big draw with the older rigs, repairability. I know the 200s are not that easy, the 100s are prob somewhere between your 80 and the 200s. The late model 80s hit the sweet spot...I think Toyotas in general in early to mid 90s were at their best.

 

[redthies]

The mythical Toyota never needing parts. I'm a firm believer that Toyota LCs are built to an excellent standard, parts still wear out, they need maintenance (which can be expensive) and for the older rigs typically more of it and they certainly dont last idefinately. They withstand abuse well while still running to a fair standaed , I'll give them that. In all the years, including multiple Euro hi per rigs, I've never had any of them need anything prior to 25k. After 100k even the mythical LC needs ball joints, CV boot rebuilds, timing belt, etc.

Nothing mythical about it amigo. I’ve got the lack of receipts to prove it. And I wasn’t saying they never need anything, only that comparing them to a Jeep is ludicrous.

How has your Ranger been so far? I gave brief consideration to one of those, but I like to let common sense prevail, which told me to not buy the first or second year of anything, and that resale on the Tacoma will be as good as it gets for a gas engine vehicle. I like the Ranger on paper, but don’t have any real world experience other than looking on over on the lot.

 

[yoggie]

double post, see below

 

[yoggie]

I quoted a couple of your comments to, well, comment on.

You state either one could be had used for +/- $25k. Then you state the Heep is $20k cheaper?

The Heep WILL be much cheaper to buy parts for, but you WILL HAVE TO BUY PARTS FOR IT. I traded my JKUR with 25,000 miles on it for a 100 series with 200,000 miles on it. The Heep needed more parts replaced in the 25,000 from new than the 100 did in the 55,000 so far starting at 200k, and at 200,000 the 100 drove head and shoulders better than the JKUR did brand new. Both had OME suspension and quality tires on them, so that point was equal.

I shortened my post a lot from original so I see where the confusion comes from. I will be moving to Europe for 4 years hence why I have the ability to no kidding purchase a 70 directly from a current owner, all while getting someone else pay to import it to the US when I return home. The one constraint is the part of Germany I will be moving to requires diesel vehicles to either be built after 2016 or be more than 30 years old and registered as a classic. $25k gets you a 30+ year old 70 with 100k miles, or a 10 year old Wrangler with 100k miles.

The rest of my post is in reference to Toyota trying to sell the 70 in the US today. The $20k difference is best estimate for a new US 70 vs a similarly optioned Wrangler.

I had a 2 door Rubicon for 12 years, weld in cage, 35s, well built for rock crawling in Moab, New Mexico and Arizona. Sold it because putting kids in car seats via the soft top rear window gets old quick (more of a problem with 2 doors than an issue with the Wrangler). That and it was going to sit in storage for 4-5 years as we are taking wife's Prius to Germany, and I couldn’t sleep knowing a good rig would be sitting at my parents' house in the AZ sun with all the rubber parts just rotting away. I wheeled the hell out of that Jeep and while I damaged parts off road a few times due to my own stupidity, it never broke down, never failed me, never left me stranded, never had to do a trail repair or be towed (mud doesn’t count). Yes, I did have to repair damaged or weakened parts once I got home, and death wobble was an acceptable part of the experience. This was a 2007, universally considered one of the worst years Jeep ever made. However, I am fully aware of the Wranglers reputation and my personal recommendation to anyone looking to buy one is to by a 4Runner instead; unless they already know exactly what they are getting into, are looking for a street legal rock crawler, and have a serious need for a front locking diff.

On a more philosophical level, Wranglers and 70s are built for a very different duty cycle. Wranglers are built for very easy living 99% of the time and extreme punishment/wheeling/rock crawling/mudding 1% of the time. 70s are built for constant medium to hard going 100% of the time. Parts can and are designed to meet the different needs of the customers with their different duty cycles. I look at the Wrangler as a "glass cannon;" basically the equivalent of a WWII tank hunter: huge gun, hit and run with little to no armor. The 70 is a serious, main battle tank designed to stay in the fight and duke it out. If I was spending a year traveling South America or Africa, there is absolutely no way I would take a Wrangler. However, in reality, I won't be doing any long term travel while the kids are still young, so a 70 is not the right choice for me and the family. I don’t know if a Wrangler will be that right vehicle when I get back to the states, but I have 4+ years to figure that out. I suspect my rock-crawling days are behind me, so maybe something else will fit the needs of a "family camping vehicle" better, but that is a discussion for a different thread.

Also, I would never consider a Grand Cherokee, or anything else from Jeep for that matter, as they are disposable junk. But I wasn’t talking about Jeeps in general vs Toyotas, nor was I talking about 100 or 200 series as they fall in a different category. I have owned 2 jeeps, the 2 door Rubicon and my first car, a 96 XJ. I have owned probably a dozen Toyotas (I have lost count), so I am extremely confident in Toyota's reliability. As a minor counter (and random thought not connected to the Wrangler vs 70 discussion), my parents had a RAV4 burn out a transmission at 105k miles; so even Toyotas can have weak points or flawed parts.

So to actually bring this back to the discussion at hand as to should Toyota bring the 70 to the states, what I have concluded is while the 70 is far better for 95% of the world, it does not meet the wants and needs of most Americans. The end result is I simply don’t think the 70 will sell well enough in the US for Toyota to bring it over. Even if the 70 was sold here, I would recommend the 4Runner for 90% of people as it is a far better DD and good enough off-road for most family camping trips, Wrangler for 9% of the hard core wheelers, and maybe 1% of people the 70 for the long term off-road living.

 

[nickw]

Nothing mythical about it amigo. I’ve got the lack of receipts to prove it. And I wasn’t saying they never need anything, only that comparing them to a Jeep is ludicrous.

How has your Ranger been so far? I gave brief consideration to one of those, but I like to let common sense prevail, which told me to not buy the first or second year of anything, and that resale on the Tacoma will be as good as it gets for a gas engine vehicle. I like the Ranger on paper, but don’t have any real world experience other than looking on over on the lot.

Ranger - love it! I was a die hard Toyota dude, had a 78' FJ40, 1996 4 runner, 2001 Tacoma, 2010 4 runner and then jumped ship to the Euro stuff for a few years, mostly Audis.

I caught the Ranger bug when I was in Aus, they have an excellent rep over there and while the Ranger is new here in the states, my thought was it uses proven architecture that has (presumably) been drawn from based on the overseas Rangers and the engine has been stateside for several years and transmission too, from the F150. Same locking rear axle as the Rubicon also......so thought overall it was pretty low risk. It drives like a rig and has the feel of a rig from 2010....not as well mannered as the newer stuff, which I kinda like, to be honest.

The engine is amazing and I greatly prefer the seating position over the Tacomas, the Ranger is much more upright and has better front visibility.....IMO.

It's def not perfect, but it's a good blend of old / new, high tech engine, old school look and feel.....I'm happy. If I wasn't in this I'd step up to a base F150 with a 6.5' bed....

 

[nickw]

I shortened my post a lot from original so I see where the confusion comes from. I will be moving to Europe for 4 years hence why I have the ability to no kidding purchase a 70 directly from a current owner, all while getting someone else pay to import it to the US when I return home. The one constraint is the part of Germany I will be moving to requires diesel vehicles to either be built after 2016 or be more than 30 years old and registered as a classic. $25k gets you a 30+ year old 70 with 100k miles, or a 10 year old Wrangler with 100k miles.

The rest of my post is in reference to Toyota trying to sell the 70 in the US today. The $20k difference is best estimate for a new US 70 vs a similarly optioned Wrangler.

I had a 2 door Rubicon for 12 years, weld in cage, 35s, well built for rock crawling in Moab, New Mexico and Arizona. Sold it because putting kids in car seats via the soft top rear window gets old quick (more of a problem with 2 doors than an issue with the Wrangler). That and it was going to sit in storage for 4-5 years as we are taking wife's Prius to Germany, and I couldn’t sleep knowing a good rig would be sitting at my parents' house in the AZ sun with all the rubber parts just rotting away. I wheeled the hell out of that Jeep and while I damaged parts off road a few times due to my own stupidity, it never broke down, never failed me, never left me stranded, never had to do a trail repair or be towed (mud doesn’t count). Yes, I did have to repair damaged or weakened parts once I got home, and death wobble was an acceptable part of the experience. This was a 2007, universally considered one of the worst years Jeep ever made. However, I am fully aware of the Wranglers reputation and my personal recommendation to anyone looking to buy one is to by a 4Runner instead; unless they already know exactly what they are getting into, are looking for a street legal rock crawler, and have a serious need for a front locking diff.

On a more philosophical level, Wranglers and 70s are built for a very different duty cycle. Wranglers are built for very easy living 99% of the time and extreme punishment/wheeling/rock crawling/mudding 1% of the time. 70s are built for constant medium to hard going 100% of the time. Parts can and are designed to meet the different needs of the customers with their different duty cycles. I look at the Wrangler as a "glass cannon;" basically the equivalent of a WWII tank hunter: huge gun, hit and run with little to no armor. The 70 is a serious, main battle tank designed to stay in the fight and duke it out. If I was spending a year traveling South America or Africa, there is absolutely no way I would take a Wrangler. However, in reality, I won't be doing any long term travel while the kids are still young, so a 70 is not the right choice for me and the family. I don’t know if a Wrangler will be that right vehicle when I get back to the states, but I have 4+ years to figure that out. I suspect my rock-crawling days are behind me, so maybe something else will fit the needs of a "family camping vehicle" better, but that is a discussion for a different thread.

Also, I would never consider a Grand Cherokee, or anything else from Jeep for that matter, as they are disposable junk. But I wasn’t talking about Jeeps in general vs Toyotas, nor was I talking about 100 or 200 series as they fall in a different category. I have owned 2 jeeps, the 2 door Rubicon and my first car, a 96 XJ. I have owned probably a dozen Toyotas (I have lost count), so I am extremely confident in Toyota's reliability. As a minor counter (and random thought not connected to the Wrangler vs 70 discussion), my parents had a RAV4 burn out a transmission at 105k miles; so even Toyotas can have weak points or flawed parts.

So to actually bring this back to the discussion at hand as to should Toyota bring the 70 to the states, what I have concluded is while the 70 is far better for 95% of the world, it does not meet the wants and needs of most Americans. The end result is I simply don’t think the 70 will sell well enough in the US for Toyota to bring it over. Even if the 70 was sold here, I would recommend the 4Runner for 90% of people as it is a far better DD and good enough off-road for most family camping trips, Wrangler for 9% of the hard core wheelers, and maybe 1% of people the 70 for the long term off-road living.

I'd bet the house that the 70 series (if offered) would be bought, driven and used by people who have little to no interest ever taking them offroad. At some point it becomes a status symbol....kinda like the poor Gwagen....

 

[PSea]

Toyota recognized a market for cheaper 4WD trucks to sell along side the Cruiser to dirt bags and contractors.

Proud "dirt bag" here. wow. nothing like sweeping, grossly ignorant statements!