NPS fines AWD owners…
- Thread starter redthies
- Start date
Somecallmetimm
Adventurer
IIRC most NPS signs indicating 4x4 only also specify "high clearance" which Subies and similar AWD rides do not qualify as such.
So how exactly dose the NPS define AWD, 4WD and High clearance?
I've worked with some federal and state regulations and they can be really stupidly defined (I'm not saying I don't agree - the rule itself can be strange).
If some one has seen something in print from a reasonable source (ie, not Reddit) please let us know.
The only thing I could find on the NPS web site is a requirement for a 'low transfer case' and some words to the effect that 100% of the drive can be transferred to the front axle.
The 100% drive part is true on a typical domestic pickup or Jeep but not so much on something with a center diff (with out a lock).
And, just to poke the bear, my daily driver can put 100% drive on the front axle and it is definitely a AWD SUV - again government definitions not making the cut.
I didn't find anything for 'high clearance'.
I know the SUV is not high clearance but is my truck?
Maybe they just need to drop a big rock in the middle of the road next to the sign...
I've worked with some federal and state regulations and they can be really stupidly defined (I'm not saying I don't agree - the rule itself can be strange).
If some one has seen something in print from a reasonable source (ie, not Reddit) please let us know.
The only thing I could find on the NPS web site is a requirement for a 'low transfer case' and some words to the effect that 100% of the drive can be transferred to the front axle.
The 100% drive part is true on a typical domestic pickup or Jeep but not so much on something with a center diff (with out a lock).
And, just to poke the bear, my daily driver can put 100% drive on the front axle and it is definitely a AWD SUV - again government definitions not making the cut.
I didn't find anything for 'high clearance'.
I know the SUV is not high clearance but is my truck?
Maybe they just need to drop a big rock in the middle of the road next to the sign...
Last edited:
redthies
Renaissance Redneck
I think you should test it. Go run the nearest popular “4x4 only” trail on NPS land in your Subaru on a holiday weekend and let us know what happens?
99% of ”news” is inflammatory BS.
As long as you don't get stuck and have to be rescued you likely won't get fined. I saw a guy take a rental 911 Porsche down a clearly 4x4 road years ago. It sounded terrible each time the bottom of the car banged on the rocks. I have no idea whether he made it back out.
JaSAn
Grumpy Old Man
A couple things to consider:
- The National Forest Service is a bureaucracy. And like all bureaucracies they tend to formulate regulations that require the least amount of effort on their part.
- The forest rangers that are making the rules are forest managers not off-roaders or motorheads. I doubt they know the capabilities of different types of AWD.
- They are probably making the regulations based on what general classification of vehicles cause problems for them.
BritKLR
Kapitis Indagatoris
So there is two threads going on about this topic with similiar gripes:
forum.expeditionportal.com
And, I'll comment on the same point about NPS LEO's.
LOL......I suspect you've never met an NPS Back Country Law Enforcement Officer and therefore you have no clue what their training/knowledge base/real world life experience is regarding the ability to determine the difference between a 4wd and a AWD. I spent a lot of time at GlynCo, FLETC and working/training with The Department of the Interior LEO's in the back country and I can assure you they can tell the difference. Period.
If that doesn't help, then just goto the Federal Code definition for assistance:
DEFINITION
A four wheel drive vehicle is defined as a sport utility vehicle (SUV) or truck with at least 15-inch tire rims and at least eight inches of clearance from the lowest point of the frame, body, suspension, or differential to the ground. Four wheel drive vehicles have a transfer case between the front and rear axles that locks the front and rear drive shafts together when four wheel drive is engaged. All wheel drive (AWD) vehicles do not meet this definition.
Finally, here's that actual warning letter:
NPS Fines AWD drivers…
AWD is NOT 4WD! https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/national-park-service-will-cite-drivers-of-awd-cars-for-driving-on-4wd-only-trails/ar-AA1otL3J?cvid=47e4e28c4906411ab06bb51ce9f6afd2&ei=3
forum.expeditionportal.com
And, I'll comment on the same point about NPS LEO's.
LOL......I suspect you've never met an NPS Back Country Law Enforcement Officer and therefore you have no clue what their training/knowledge base/real world life experience is regarding the ability to determine the difference between a 4wd and a AWD. I spent a lot of time at GlynCo, FLETC and working/training with The Department of the Interior LEO's in the back country and I can assure you they can tell the difference. Period.
If that doesn't help, then just goto the Federal Code definition for assistance:
DEFINITION
A four wheel drive vehicle is defined as a sport utility vehicle (SUV) or truck with at least 15-inch tire rims and at least eight inches of clearance from the lowest point of the frame, body, suspension, or differential to the ground. Four wheel drive vehicles have a transfer case between the front and rear axles that locks the front and rear drive shafts together when four wheel drive is engaged. All wheel drive (AWD) vehicles do not meet this definition.
Finally, here's that actual warning letter:
plainjaneFJC
Deplorable
On the flip side lots of people run the rear locker when not needed and it chews up switchbacks
So, none of the new Sprinter or Transit Vans qualify no matter how jacked up or modified they are. There will likely be a lot of disappointed people with $200,000 vans out there.So there is two threads going on about this topic with similiar gripes:
NPS Fines AWD drivers…
AWD is NOT 4WD! https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/national-park-service-will-cite-drivers-of-awd-cars-for-driving-on-4wd-only-trails/ar-AA1otL3J?cvid=47e4e28c4906411ab06bb51ce9f6afd2&ei=3
And, I'll comment on the same point about NPS LEO's.
LOL......I suspect you've never met an NPS Back Country Law Enforcement Officer and therefore you have no clue what their training/knowledge base/real world life experience is regarding the ability to determine the difference between a 4wd and a AWD. I spent a lot of time at GlynCo, FLETC and working/training with The Department of the Interior LEO's in the back country and I can assure you they can tell the difference. Period.
If that doesn't help, then just goto the Federal Code definition for assistance:
DEFINITION
A four wheel drive vehicle is defined as a sport utility vehicle (SUV) or truck with at least 15-inch tire rims and at least eight inches of clearance from the lowest point of the frame, body, suspension, or differential to the ground. Four wheel drive vehicles have a transfer case between the front and rear axles that locks the front and rear drive shafts together when four wheel drive is engaged. All wheel drive (AWD) vehicles do not meet this definition.
Finally, here's that actual warning letter:View attachment 847906
I'm all for keeping less-capable vehicles off of NPS 4x4 trails, but relying solely on 8" of ground clearance and a locking transfer case fails to consider a lot of other factors in off-road capability. The Subaru Crosstrek Wilderesss with 9.3" of ground clearance and short wheelbase would not be allowed as it does not have a locking transfer case. A Ford Super Duty crewcab long bed would be allowed despite poor approach, breakover, and departure angles, poor turning radius, and 8,000 pounds of heft. In the majority of off-highway cases the Subaru would outperform the pickup truck. Some common sense needs to be employed when enforcing these regulations.
Here's the Supervisor compendium, so you can read it for yourself.
By the definition of "high or low gear" doesn't that also exclude all old Sprinters, even the ones badged "4wd", because they don't have low? (could be wrong, but that was my understanding...never owned one).
www.nps.gov
By the definition of "high or low gear" doesn't that also exclude all old Sprinters, even the ones badged "4wd", because they don't have low? (could be wrong, but that was my understanding...never owned one).
Superintendent's Compendium - Canyonlands National Park (U.S. National Park Service)
A document that lists the special designations, closures, permit requirements, public use limits, and other restrictions made at the superintendent's discretion.
www.nps.gov