on board water system

Ducky's Dad

Explorer
Geo thermal water tank.
The water does get hot after a couple days in the desert, but the 4" fill plug allows me to dump ice cubes into the tank whenever we pass by a WalMart. I also have a 5-gallon insulated CamTainer hard mounted in the bed that will keep water cold/cool for several days. And a fridge/freezer in the back seat. And a 58-quart Orca cooler in the bed. Gotta stay hydrated.
 

rayra

Expedition Leader
Brady thanks for the details on the box volume. Just the sort of thing I'm worried about with mine, been working up ideas for zero loss on the drawers and box to get the max out of the cubic.

on pressurizing the pipe, the tolerances for small diameter sched 40 PVC are very high, but drop off sharply as the pipe diameter increases. But 6" pipe still has a working pressure of 180psi, so you could hit it to say a 100psi, near full and not have to repressurize it until it's say half empty.
Lot of folks cringe at the idea, but there's many folks on the Garage Journal site happily plumbing their garages with PVC air lines.
 
Im curious why pvc wouldnt work pressurized?

PVC Pipe-Schedule 40

Click here to download specification sheet

Application
Corrosion resistant pressure pipe, IPS sizes 1/8” through 24”, for use at temperatures up to and including 140 °F. Pressure rating (120 psi to 810 psi) varies with schedule, pipe size, and temperature
 

Ducky's Dad

Explorer
Im curious why pvc wouldnt work pressurized?
It will work, until it doesn't, and then it can kill you. The pressure rating you see for various schedules of PVC is based upon water pressure. Water is a liquid and is essentially not compressible. Air, which will fill the pipe as the water level drops, is a gas and is highly compressible. Compressed air in a given volume of interior space represents a much greater amount of stored energy than does an uncompressed liquid filling the same volume at the same pressure. If the PVC ever cracks or suffers a significant impact while pressurized, that energy is released suddenly and can result in a very good simulation of an explosion, with shards of PVC flying off at high velocity. The higher the pressure, the bigger the boom and the faster the shards will be moving. You are probably OK to pressurize a well built small tank at maybe 5psi just to move the water, but anything above that is risky. Remember that the pressure capacity of your tank is only as high as the weakest link, and fittings are generally rated for lower pressure than the pipe itself. Remember also that PVC is subject to degradation from UV and ozone, so if it's on the outside of the vehicle you'll need to paint it to prolong the life of the tank. I sprayed the tank on my Dodge with a white Behr primer that is specifically listed for adhesion to PVC. Plastic is notoriously difficult to get paint to stick to, but this stuff actually works. I can check the label for specific product details, but you can get it at Home Depot, and it works surprisingly well. I did prep the PVC by lightly sanding it and wiping down with acetone before I sprayed it, and with a little acetone added to the primer.

http://www.hoseandfittingsetc.com/o...pe-of-Pipe-Should-I-Use-for-My-Air-Compressor
The use of PVC pipe is common but NOT RECOMMENDED for use with compressed air. It is often used because it is readily available, inexpensive, and easy to install. However, as with many plastics, PVC gets brittle over time and can crack, break, or even shatter. The presence of air compressor oils in the line and heat from the compressed air accelerates the degradation of PVC. These failures, combined with air under pressure, are potentially fatal due to the airborne, razor-sharp shrapnel. It is also an OSHA violation to use PVC for compressed air distribution, which means you could incur a hefty fine.

https://www.osha.gov/dts/hib/hib_data/hib19880520.html
SUBJECT:

Safety Hazard Information Bulletin on the Use of Polyvinyl Chloride (PVC) Pipe in Above ground Installations
The Dallas Regional Office has brought to our attention a potential serious hazard existing with the use of polyvinyl chloride (PVC) plastic pipes for transporting compressed gases in above ground installations. An employee in a Texas plant was injured recently by a rupture in a PVC compressed air line. Plastic projectiles from the point of rupture caused lacerations of the employee's hand. This is noteworthy because the Plastic Pipe Institute, in its Recommendation B dated January 19, 1972, recommends against the use of thermoplastic pipe to transport compressed air or other compressed gases in exposed plant piping. (See attachment.)

Furthermore, sections 842.32, 842.43 and 849.52(b) of the American National Standards Institute/American Society of Mechanical Engineers (ANSI/ASME) B31.8-1986, Gas Transmission and Distribution Piping Systems Standard, limit the operating pressure of plastic piping distribution systems to 100 pounds per inch (psi) and prohibit the installation of such systems above ground except where ". . . the above ground portion of the plastic service line is completely enclosed in a conduit or casing of sufficient strength to provide protection from external damage and deterioration." (Excerpts attached.)

Additional consensus standards applicable to PVC compressed gas systems include American Society for Testing Materials (ASTM) D1785-86, Standard Specification for Polyvinyl Chloride Plastic Pipe, Schedules 40, 80, and 120, and ASTM D2513-86a, Standard Specification for Thermoplastic Gas Pressure Piping Systems.

http://hydraulicspneumatics.com/200...s/Article/False/6547/TechZone-FluidPowerAcces
PVC piping is relatively inexpensive, easy to install, lightweight, and corrosion resistant. However, PVC has one major drawback. It is brittle. An inadvertent impact could cause the piping to shatter, endangering surrounding personnel. Most PVC pipe manufacturers warn against using PVC for compressed air service due to potential liability from such failures. The Plastic Piping Institute, in their Recommendation B, states that plastic piping used for compressed air transport in above-ground systems should be protected in shatter-proof encasements, unless otherwise recommended by the manufacturer. In many states, the Occupational Health and Safety Administration (OSHA) has stepped in and regulated against using brittle plastics such as PVC in these applications, and additional states are following suit.

The strictest standard in the country has been issued by California's OSHA. It includes five tests, as well as a requirement for comprehensive marking of the pipe and fittings. These tests include long-term hydrostatic, short-term burst, and three specialized impact tests -- all to ensure the safety and ductility of the system. The impact tests include striking frozen, pressurized pipe with both blunt and sharp strikers, using various forces, and striking a frozen pipe with a hemispherical striker, using various forces.
 

Clymber

Adventurer
found this online
for weight water weights little over 8 pounds per gallon



1/4" 0.003gallon
3/8" 0.006gallon
1/2" 0.01gallon
3/4" 0.023gallon
1" 0.041 gallon
1 1/4" 0.064 gallon
1 1/2 " 0.092 gallon
2" 0.163 gallon
2 1/2" 0.255 gallon
3" 0.367gallon
4" 0.653 gallon
5" 1.02 gallon
6" 1.47 gallon
8" 2.61 gallon
10" 4.08 gallon
12" 5.88 gallon
15" 9.18 gallon
 
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Ducky's Dad

Explorer
Im curious why pvc wouldnt work pressurized?
I tried to post an answer to this yesterday, complete with OSHA citations and links, but got a message that it would not be posted until the Mods approve it. Don't know what happened or why, but the short answer is that pressurized PVC is dangerous. Water is not compressible and air is compressible. As the water level in the tank goes down, the amount of compressed air in the tank increases. Air at a given pressure (say 100psi) contains a lot more stored energy than water at the same pressure, because water is not compressible. PVC degrades, gets brittle, etc., and can explode if compromised.
 
were not talking 100psi here.

the road shower one linked previously operates has an 18psi safety valve. so im assuming it would operate at 10-12 psi fairly well.
 

Ducky's Dad

Explorer
With a safety valve at low pressure, you are probably OK, but you still need to regulate the compressor to some pressure below the limit of the valve. Probably fine if the safety valve is protected from weather and dirt, but on an external tank like mine there is a good chance that the valve's function would be compromised. I have been surprised at how good the gravity flow is from my tank with a short hose and nozzle attached.

I just went back and looked at the Roadshower, and it's a pretty slick unit. But, it is .100" aluminum with welded end caps rather than PVC, so a bit different in the way it would handle pressure and degradation from UV and ozone. The pressure relief valve appears to be a radiator cap on the filler neck and I'm not sure how you would fit that to round PVC pipe. My early design idea included a pressure relief valve similar to what you would find on a small shop compressor, and either a Schrader valve or an air coupling to hook the tank to my OBA system. I backed away from that idea because I didn't want to take the chance of someone else in the group overpressurizing the tank. I may revisit that later.

For $300, the Roadshower looks like a good deal. I have way more than $300 in mine just for pipe and fittings.
 
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yeah problem is i have no space for that on my 2 door. no roof rack or cargo left. was thinking a 6in pipe between the rear roll bars like another crossbar almost. gravity wouldnt do much good for that would it?
 

Ducky's Dad

Explorer
yeah problem is i have no space for that on my 2 door. no roof rack or cargo left. was thinking a 6in pipe between the rear roll bars like another crossbar almost. gravity wouldnt do much good for that would it?
The higher you can mount the tank, the better gravity will work for you. If you want to mount it low, you might need to use a small 12V pump to get the water to where you want it. Another alternative might be a small siphon pump driven by a cordless drill. But then you have to carry the drill and a charger for it, and it won't deliver much flow.

There are lots of plastic tanks that can be mounted in the footwells or inside the fenders, but filling and draining can be a big hassle. Frontrunner has a pretty good selection of tanks, and you can Google some of the RV suppliers for tanks in all kinds of configurations for potable, gray, and black water.
 

Herbie

Rendezvous Conspirator
I think you'd want to consider a pump no matter where you mount it. Even on the roof, there isn't going to be much head pressure. I have a drain valve on my 12-gallon valterra tank, and it is S-L-O-W to drain even when wide open, since there's only about a 20" drop from tank to tap. Planning for a pump allows you to move the weight lower without making head pressure a consideration.
 

Ducky's Dad

Explorer
Regulating your air line is a piece of cake, just buy a manual regulator at the hardware store and install it on the outlet of your compressor. The problem is that you'll have to remember to turn it down for the water tank/can and then up again for tires and such. Bit of a pain, and those regulators are not all that accurate. And the link for that can says:
Please Note: These cans are not designed to be pressurized.
I don't have any Scepter cans to look at, but I think they are pretty thin blow-molded units, and will expand some when pressurized. Get one with a bad seam and it could come apart when you don't expect it. You could use a bicycle pump like the one shown in the Roadshower link, but you'll be constantly pumping. You might look at the small battery-operated pumps that come with airbeds and camping mattresses (like Coleman stuff). Those might max out at a pressure low enough to work safely with the Scepter can, and they don't take up much space. Or get a roof rack. You know you want one.

Re the gravity feed issue, my truck is over 7' tall at the rack, so I get real good flow. Remember that with a small tank and high flow, the water won't last long. You can "stretch" the water by pressurizing it through a smaller orifice, kind of like a low-flow shower head. That Roadshower unit is only five gallons.
 
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Pressurized Scepter Water Can: http://youtu.be/POrNzl0wqXI

Just did this and at 10psi it runs amazing.

Need to figure out a lower flow nozzle as ill run out of water quick. I just used the air tank off my shop compressor with a couple quick hits you can see it bulge a little then its good to go
 

Ducky's Dad

Explorer
Need to figure out a lower flow nozzle
Look in the irrigation department at Home Depot. Lots of flow restrictors and small nozzles for drip systems. You can get a very usable stream from 1/4" drip line.
 

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