On trail comms; Why and how survey

[jsek29]

I am looking into adding radio communication to our setup at some point in the future. In order to better refine my research, I am curious as to the reason people have radios (talking to other vehicles, talking to folks at home, talk8mg to someone outside your vehicle, reaching out for help in emergencies, etc) and what type of radio (2M, .7M, GMRS, FRS, CB, etc.) you use to accomplish this. If you have a radio in your vehicle, please respond with:

Why you initially bought it
What type of radio you chose
How you actually use it now

For now, the make and model of radio is unimportant, I am really looking for the type, and how to intended to use it, as well as how your use changed, or didn’t change, once you got a radio.

Many thanks!

 

[BigSwede]

I have a CB and a 2 meter ham. Both are for trail comms. There is a group I meet up with every year in Moab that uses CB. Our local overlanding group uses 2M ham because CB doesn't have enough range if our group gets strung out. I don't do ham as a hobby, strictly utilitarian. Of course, the ham has greater range in an emergency situation too, but I have never had occasion to use it for that.

 

[prerunner1982]

I run VHF, UHF, and HF ham radios. Part of it is hobby but I also use it to communicate with others both in group and outside of group, emergencies, vehicle tracking, sending text messages and emails when cell signal does not exist.

I also have a CB that I can throw in for the non ham friends, but it generally spends most of it's time on the shelf.
I would be willing to add GMRS if more wheelers went that direction.

 

[Modeler]

2m, 70cm, CB, FRS and GMRS licensed too. Depending on who I'm running with and what the needs are determines what goes.

The Jeep club I run with just decided to switch to FRS due to CB costs and tuning needs vs. blister pack FRS ease.

 

[FJOE]

I use FRS/GMRS

Why you initially bought it- Trail comms, and comms with the base station at my cabin

What type of radio you chose- FRS/GMRS handhelds (Motorola) (vehicle to vehicle, dismounted) and in the truck a Midland MXT series.

How you actually use it now- Exactly the way I envisioned.

The good thing is its so modular in that you can hit any outdoor store in any state (or country for that matter) and pick up bubble pack radios that are compatible. With the Midland MXT series, you can run repeaters and push some power from a small unit. For my needs, that's about it. I don't need to talk to the space station.

 

[Klierslc]

This is a bit of a can of worms...
.
So, to start off with here is my one line assessment of each capability
.
FRS--Low power, low range, cheap, limited channels no license required
GMRS--almost nobody has these, decent range, repeaters are few and far between, license required
CB--decent range if set up well, no license required, limited channels
Ham—License required, repeaters are plentiful, range is excellent

Now, on to what I do and why. I am a bit of a capability nerd—I like to be able to talk to everybody but not look like a pin cushion going down the freeway. Disclaimer: I know that everything I may do is not strictly legal, so take everything with a grain of salt. I like the universal nature of CB and acknowledge the fact that there are many of them around. I also like the accessibility of FRS but am not a fan of their performance. Ham radio is by far the most capable and is a must when in the back country—pushing 50w (or more) and a good antenna can get a call for help out to an area repeater that any of the other modes wouldn’t come close to reaching. Somebody is always monitoring those repeaters so getting a message passed to emergency services is a pretty safe bet. I personally don’t see the utility of the GMRS specific radios as you still need a license and there are so few GMRS repeaters around that you’ll be stuck exclusively talking to people in your group that run GMRS.
.
I run a quad band TYT TH9800 in the Land Cruiser along with a cobra 18xstII. I also have an 8w dual boafeng handheld and at least one FRS radio in the car at any given time. I run a firestick antenna for the CB and a tri-band antenna that covers 70cm, 2m, and 6m. The TYT is opened up to cover the MARS and CAP frequencies as well. I can also receive the general aviation bands but not transmit. It can transmit and receive all FRS, GMRS, marine and CB channels—I have to switch to the firestick for CB transmitting of course. This gives me the capability to talk to whoever I come across with just a twist of a dial. As the TYT is a true dual radio and the Cobra has dual watch, I can monitor 4 different channels/bands at any given time, or I can scan through continuously. I keep the baofeng and the FRS radio for out of vehicle communication and in case someone in the group doesn’t have a radio. The baofeng also has rx and tx on FRS, Marine, and GMRS. The TYT also has cross band repeat capability which allows me to link the folks with FRS radios with the folks with HAM radios or the folks with CB radios to either of the other groups.(my firestick is resonant on 11m and 2m) If I do this, I’ll use either the FRS radio or the baofeng as I can’t transmit directly from the TYT when in cross band repeat mode. The other nice thing about cross band repeat is the ability to access the capability of the mobile radio in the truck while out hiking. If I can reach back to the truck with my hand held, I then have access to the truck radio’s antenna and power in order to call for help or talk to someone else in the group. Bottom line is that there are very few instances where anything other than a ham radio will get you more than a couple miles of coverage in the back country where in poor conditions, a quality mobile will easily get you 10 miles and potentially much, much more.
.
As prerunner mentioned, there is also a capability for using packet radio to communicate vehicle to vehicle and back to civilization while also providing near real time position tracking. That takes a bit more doing but is a great capability as the data packets are so small that they are more reliably transmitted and received than a long voice message.

All that said, I use the capabilities of the TYT all of the time and I like having the capability to talk to Ham radios, FRS, GMRS, and CB all in one package. I almost never use the CB anymore except on road trips and when wheeling with folks who have CBs (I also like to have the ability to use the CB for monitoring or weather without taking up one of the sides of my ham radio) On that note, I failed to mention weather radio anywhere else, but that is another key capability that the TYT and Baofeng have--weather channel reception--this can be critical during severe weather events. All of the skywarn nets are run through amateur radio as well and they give real time reports. Last feb, we had a tornado come through Virginia beach. Weather radio said "there is a tornado, take shelter immediately" The skywarn net had spotters with eyes on the tornado giving position reports that allowed me to track the actual location--1 mile away didn't seem like nearly far enough at the time.

Anyhow, that is probably more than you asked for, but hopefully it helps.

Cheers!

Dan

 

[nwoods]

I'm like Frenchie, though for not quite as long. I am vehicle agnostic, which means I would go out with a lot of varieties of 4x4 clubs. Jeep guys all love CB's, Land Rover guys almost exclusively used FRS, and any one serious about the sport or serious about being a trail leader had HAM license setup

CB's can be extraordinarily frustrating. Sometimes with distances shorter than a thrown rock, depending on the set up, tuning, ground plane, battery config, cloud cover, solar activity, amount of iron in the rocks, I don't know. CB just sucks....unless it doesn't. Then its amazing and wonderful and oh so much better than FRS. But usually it sucks.

FRS is pretty good. unless you have a large group that gets spread out and the trail leader needs to designate a "relay charlie" to maintain the comms string all the way to the tail gunner. Other issues is that there's always someone with a hot mic (stuck PTT switch), or someone who's volume level is non-existent and can't be heard, or someone who simply can't grasp the concept of answering with more than one syllable words, and waiting for the noise cancelling to sync, and all you hear is "....elp. click/beep". If you use FRS, you have to push to talk, wait half a second, and then use polysybollic words, like "That's confirmed" instead of "yes", but all anyone will hear is ".....s. click/beep". Range with FRS is extremely variable, from "well thrown rock", to "line of sight near the edge of the horizon" (about 8 miles on a flat dry lake). Other issues is that there will always be that one guy with a fossil of an FRS, that has no sub channels or GMRS channels, so you need to stay on a common band, like channel 11, and you get every freeway wacko or inarticulate kid who's mouth is too close to the mic and they ruin your chances of communication. did you know that the higher channels put out more power? I forget the values, but it's something like 1-11 are .3 watts, and 12-21 are 1watt. That makes a big difference in range and clarity! As trail leader, I keep a nylon padded pouch with 10 or so decent FRS radios in it, using standard batteries instead of rechargeables. I think other than my rig, keeping a supply of powered up FRS radios on hand has been my biggest expense as a trail leader over the years. They just disappear.

HAM is the bomb. Simple test, maximum range and clarity, numerous abilities to extend range and communication parameters and methods. I am not a HAM hobbyist, and found it needlessly difficult to use many of the HAM radio units, but the effectiveness is inarguable, and the low cost of entry thanks to the cheap Chinese models make it so that everyone really should go HAM. But there is a learning curve. Not so much about HAM, but the radios. I would use my radio once a month or so, and would find that over the intervening 4 weeks I'd forget how to use my radio...that happened a lot! The user manuals are no help. They might describe how to engage a function, but not WHY you would want or need to engage a certain function (ICOM, I'm talking about you!). But once you figure it out, there is no going back. Everything else is so inferior as to be repugnant.

No matter what system you use, it is crucial to have a tail gunner with a good radio in addition to patience, experience, and leadership skills. You can usually count on a HAM user to have those requisite skills, and they are immensely appreciated by the trail leaders!

 

[Ray_G]

It seems you are getting some very good substantive responses, I will try to be concise, not too redundant, and maybe add some (limited) value.

Like others I'm a bit of a tech nerd, with a desire to coordinate and communicate with others in the group, and externally.

Like most I started with CB, and I view it the way NWoods described...with an extra dose of "I really don't like CB"
Then I got some FRS, which are decent when employed properly.
GMRS made it better.

Then I got my HAM lic; which changed the game in conjunction with the proliferation of cheap and relatively decent handhelds.

At present I have vehicle mounted VHF (2m) as well as handheld VHFs (Baofeng) that are used almost exclusively in simplex. I also carry FRS/GMRS, and the truck's have CB but I don't use it and often leave the antenna off unless I know I have to use it.
Hard to understate that the vast majority of the time I feel a handheld Baofeng with a better antenna and the extended battery outperforms the CB unless it is dialed in well and in perfect conditions.

The problem is getting others to get on board, at least on the East Coast-but that's changing.
GMRS really does have potential, particularly for the vehicle mounted units like what Midland sells...but many don't want to buy the lic.
r-
Ray

 

[jsek29]

Clarification

Thank you all for your informative responses. Please keep them coming.

I’d like to clarify my question, why did you initially buy your radio setup. I am looking for how people intended to use their radios, not the relative merits of each type of radio service. I am especially curious as to how this affected your choice of radio service. I want to get a feel for how many are using each of the aforementioned services. I know it won’t be highly accurate, but it might narrow down how to equip ur vehicle for comms.

Klierslc, it seems your setup may make a lot of this moot. As long as you have both the applicable Ham license, AND your GMRS license, as well as having a radio that is both part 90 AND part 95 certified, you should be legal. (As long as the radio is throttled down on the applicable FRS bands) Can someone confirm this, or explain why it wouldn’t be legal?

Many thanks!

 

[1leglance]

I keep a CB in my rig but can't stand it...

Ham radio all the way and do everything to get newbies into ham radio, and not just for great clear trail comm but I explain how much fun it is to run radio at various events, be ready for an emergency and have something that works around the world.

Oh and as a backup I have my InReach for sat text messaging

 

[verdesard0g]

2m mobile 75 watt and several handheld 5w. For search and rescue. I do have a lisense but only use the radios for SAR or ocasional trail ride with groups. Not a fan of radio ********-chat.

 

[camp4x4]

What Klierslc is doing is NOT legal.

Klierslc, it seems your setup may make a lot of this moot. As long as you have both the applicable Ham license, AND your GMRS license, as well as having a radio that is both part 90 AND part 95 certified, you should be legal. (As long as the radio is throttled down on the applicable FRS bands) Can someone confirm this, or explain why it wouldn’t be legal?

Okay, I'll be that guy: what he's talking about doing is in no way shape or form legal or right. FRS and GMRS radios must be type certified, as you've alluded to. The TYT-TH9800 is absolutely not Part 95 certified. Here's the radio's certification on the FCC website. It is only Part 15B certified (technically not a type certification, since ham equipment doesn't have to be... Nearly every electronics device sold inside the United States radiates unintentional emissions, and must be reviewed to comply with Part 15 before it can be advertised or sold in the US market). There are exactly 0 ham radios that are type certified for FRS because the type requires a non-removable antenna. While FRS is available to anyone, the GMRS license is restricted to immediate family, not some rando in your group.

I'm not gonna soap box too much here, but this is the kind of arrogant, "I know what I'm doing, so it's okay," thinking creates the kind of confusion and slippery slope I absolutely can't stand. Yes, many of the new, cheap, Chinese radios like TYT, Baofeng and others can transmit on frequencies for services they aren't supposed to use. That doesn't make it okay. Not to mention crossbanding FRS to ham bands and visa-versa. That's just wrong on so many levels.

Hope that answers your question jsek29.

As for your original question: Primarily I wanted some way to communicate with the people in my group. First this started out as in my immediate vicinity, but once I started getting into ham radio it became communicating with the group even if they were outside the immediate vicinity through repeaters. Yes, the whole reaching someone in an emergency with no cell service thing is a small factor, but not really. Nice to have, not really a driving factor in my pick.

As for what radios/services I use:

I too use FRS radios, a CB radio and a ham radio in my truck. This was the third radio service I started using as I started getting other people into wheeling/overlanding and they have yet to get radios of their own. They get no end of **** until they get something besides my FRS radios.

I have a Cobra 75 WX ST CB radio because CB seems to be the lowest common denominator. I'd original bought a larger unit that had a PA and junk, but found this compact unit to be at least as effective as the larger one without taking up hardly any space. I don't ever have the need to fine tune any settings other than squelch so I've yet to miss anything on the big clunky unit. This was the 1st radio service I started using because it seemed like what all the guys I would go wheeling with used.

Now, the ham radio is the one that gets the most use. I have a Yaesu FTM-400xdr currently. I'd previously had the aforementioned TYT TH-9800. Fine radio, not a great radio (knock-off of Yaesu's 8900 btw). I bought the FTM-400xdr primarily because I wanted a radio with a modern looking and functioning display. So far the FTM-400xdr is the only mobile unit I've found that has a display that even remotely looks like it's been updated in the last 30 years. I've also found it to have exceptional performance, above and beyond my previous TYT. It hears stations the TYT could only hear sometimes and hits stations the TYT could only hit sometimes.

Hope that helps.

 

[jsek29]

Okay, I'll be that guy: what he's talking about doing is in no way shape or form legal or right. FRS and GMRS radios must be type certified, as you've alluded to. The TYT-TH9800 is absolutely not Part 95 certified. Here's the radio's certification on the FCC website. It is only Part 15B certified (technically not a type certification, since ham equipment doesn't have to be... Nearly every electronics device sold inside the United States radiates unintentional emissions, and must be reviewed to comply with Part 15 before it can be advertised or sold in the US market). There are exactly 0 ham radios that are type certified for FRS because the type requires a non-removable antenna. While FRS is available to anyone, the GMRS license is restricted to immediate family, not some rando in your group.

Hope that helps.

aaronvogel,

That does kind of help. It also leaves one question:

Can a radio be both part 90 and part 95 certified, is, can a radio legally transmit on both amateur bandwidths and GMRS bandwidths?

To be clear, klierslc was clear that he is coloring outside the lines. I asked the questions I did to see if a legal way exists to transmit on Ham, MURS, and GMRS. Your point about the FRS antenna requirement knocked that off the table.

Many thanks.

 

[camp4x4]

Yeah, klierslc did admit he knows he’s breaking the law. In my mind that kind of makes it more egregious.

As far as I know there is no radio that is certified for GMRS or MURS and usable for amateur radio.

MURS at least has the requirement that there be no external way to adjust the power output above 2 watts - the max allowed output on that service. Most if not all also restrict to the specific frequencies for that service. So that is similar to the fixed antenna requirement for FRS: deal breaker.

GMRS Service has this stipulation in its Transmitter Certification section: “No GMRS transmitter will be certified for use in the GMRS if it is equipped with the capabilities to operate in services that do not require equipment certification, such as the Amateur Radio Service.“ https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-i...=true&node=pt47.5.95&rgn=div5#se47.5.95_11761

So that tells me... no, there will be no multi-service transceiver available.

 

[camp4x4]

Oh, one more thing: why are you asking about Part 90? That's business radio and not allow for personal use. Part 97 is for the Amateur Radio Service (ham).

Maybe I answered my own question: if you're talking about using Part 90 certified radios on ham frequencies, that would be ok. If you're talking about using Part 90 radios on business bands for personal use, not ok. Or maybe you were just confused on parts... it's a lot of numbers...