Reply to HH, Part 2
I would like to point out a few things
1) I'm not in the industry and don't have plans to be. A few people have asked to license our design, but I've always just shared our plans and ideas gratis, including with you. We briefly considered patenting our third wall lift mechanism but decided not to because we thought it was a good design and a patent would prevent others from doing the same.
For reference, here's an article from New Atlas about our rig, their choice for best in show from Expo West. Clearly stated, we were in the showcase vehicle area. This is for self builders and we had to declare we had no plans to build professionally as part of that selection by Expo as a showcase rig. Would be a poor choice on my part if I had plans to build professionally later to lie to the expo staff about it.
https://newatlas.com/overland-expo-2018-big-motorhomes/54816/
We do have a bunch of industry friends because we've been around this for some time now. Any of them that know me would earnestly tell you we have no plans to build. I'm currently in the midst of building a 40' downeast lobster style boat with a full solar array and some other novel systems . I take on something I'm interested in and work like crazy until I'm satisfied with it, then move on to the next project. I built this expedition vehicle in my driveway, 99% of the hours into it are my own. I had help with the TIG welding and the electrical layout and thats about it. Not how you'd start a business doing this and a camper every 5 years wouldn't be a very profitable venture
Its also worth asking yourself If I'm not selling these, If Im capable of building something on my own in a driveway that atleast one publication called best in show, and the financial hit of this wasn't crippling for me, and you've personally had a somewhat long personal interaction of me generously sharing ideas of mine with you, I've acknowledged I have no plans to sue, and this post is costing me time and causing me to take heat from guys like yourself, what motivation would I have other than feeling like its the right thing to do. Trust me, other than realizing I wasn't going to be able to move past this until I'd put it out there, this post benefits me not at all.
2) I didn't say they'd ripped us for 120k. As stated, I think we ended up paying 35-45k over a high side valuation. I could have lived with that begrudgingly if the products had worked and design criteria and agreed upon weights had been met. When things started failing prematurely, I shared our experience. I have no knowledge of your financial situation, but I find it interesting that several commenters have stated my lack of willingness to sue over 35-45k and parts failing is an indices that something is amiss in my telling of events. As mentioned, my partner is a litigator. In addition to the emotional costs and time lost in going after something like this in court, I know exactly how much it would cost me to prove my case, and, it just wasn't worth it. Part of my reason for posting was to encourage people to get written contracts with to not exceed clauses. I had a handshake deal with Mark and price quotes over email, which is my fault. Its another reason I chose not pursue this. While it is a binding contract, it just gets messier. My case would also be hard to prove unless I had gone about everything from the start of the problems with an eye towards an eventual lawsuit, which I didn't do. Copious photos etc. Even with a free in house legal team, and a very strong case, I think its rare you come out money ahead in these types of disputes.
3) We have redone our camper several times, its part of who I am. The major rebuild was deciding to ditch the Mog which required serious re-tooling. It might be hard to fathom, but anyone who has had a Mog can understand why that came to be
And then another rebuild of the subframe and locker, as well as the outdoor kitchen after our experience with OE. There was also an interior seating fix after we used it for a while and realized the original design wasn't great on my part. I'm fortunate that my time is largely my own and finances don't come into play on something like this, so, I chose to fix it until I was happy with it. I haven't touched it in months now that its largely done. I think if you'd built your own, there would likely have been several iterations. Its true that I'm a critical putz by nature and probably would have found more to my disliking about the final product over time, but the issues here are ones anyone would have been dissatisfied with.
4) The parts that failed were designed and built by OE. I didn't design the mechanical parts they built. My design criteria were design criteria. I designed the outdoor kitchen in sketchup with dimensions taken off my stove etc. I didnt design the lift. I showed them concept drawings of how I wanted everything to work, but didnt design the flatbed, the mounts or any of that. And thats probably the portion of your reply that raises the most questions as to your motivation for me and disappoints me the most. It sure reads like someone who has discussed it with Mark. Maybe that isn't a valid take, but it was my first thought upon reading your reply. Yeah, I'm a doc, I've built a bunch, I have a bunch of engineering background from 20 some odd years ago. It isn't a fair logical leap to assert that I made them build the mechanicals the way I wanted then griped when they didn't work. I straight up said it had been quite some time since I had done things in this vein, and I chose to go to OE because at the time I didn't feel comfortable doing it myself. It seems unlikely I'd hire someone like Mark to do this for me, then somehow force him to build things in a way he didnt think would work, then blame him for it. Also, not really Marks style and I'm sure you know him well enough to know that. Mark does what he wants, even when he's supposed to be doing what you want. Its part of whats made things work for him, but it also means he only does things his way and its pretty unlikely a doctor from California is going to convince him to do something different.
5) This isn't meant to be a knock on your rig, so please don't take it that way, but they are built for different purposes. Implying that your mounting system is still working fine means my story is inaccurate isn't really fair. Your rig if fairly long, tall and wide, and you are running duallies with a relatively low articulation suspension and smaller tires. More of a fireroad, light off roading rig than one designed for remote baja. Your rig is great for what you've used it for, but I wouldnt even consider taking it through most parts of the seven sisters in Baja for many reasons. Again, not a knock, you clearly stated in your thread what you were looking for and I think you made a great choice. As you'll recall, you asked me several questions about my suspension and my tire and wheel package and I said based on my experience getting mine to work right and on your desired use, I didn't think it was worth doing what I did. With that said, I was very clear that I wanted my rig to be very offroad capable in my discussions with OE, so the mounts and bed had to be designed to handle that. My outdoor kitchen would have failed no matter what, but I don't think my mounts and bed likely wouldn't have been an issue on my rig if I used it in the conditions you've used yours in. But the dynamic loads entering someplace like Punta Cono one our first trip very quickly caused their mounts to fail immediately whereas my new set up doesn't even flinch. The difference being that its way overbuilt, mechanically and adhesive attached, and stress tested on solidworks. I'm not going to go into the failures over again, but they were very under-engineered and the attachment adhesive surfaces under prepped for the rigs stated purpose.
Howard, you've always seemed to me a thoughtful guy and I've enjoyed our conversations and shared experiences along the way. I'm bummed you chose to address my thread in this manner, but, I'm not going to take it personally, and I wish you well.
