Payload in Tacomas- Canopies and Suspension Question

[jgpoirier]

I currently own a 3rd gen dual cab short bed with a payload of 1000lbs. With my current touring setup, it's heavy there's no doubt about it. Canopy, RTT, 60L water, fridge, drawers, gear, bumper, winch; it adds up quick. I'm now working on building a new drawer setup comprised all of aluminum to attempt to get the weight down. Depending on how that goes, I'll be rebuilding the canopy to incorporate an aluminum instead of steel frame.

My question is, with companies now bringing trays and canopies over from AUS (that combined on a short bed are approx 350-450kgs) what are they doing to compensate the weight? To me, two people, a tray and canopy with no gear in it, you're basically at 1000lbs. Reading on ARB AUS website, they offer GVM upgrades for different vehicles there, based on my readings for Tacoma related suspension I have yet to find a GVM upgrade.

Thoughts?

 

[paranoid56]

you can do like the rest of us and just plate the frame and install good rear springs

 

[DaveInDenver]

This question comes up a lot and it boils down to a couple of thing. First, there's no easy way to change the GVWR of your truck. The GVWR *may* be conservative but without having that in writing from Toyota or a Professional Engineer it's not valuable.

My feeling in the GVWR on Tacomas is actually not particularly conservative, mainly because the frame is designed to be barely enough. The 79-95 trucks I think had headroom to overload safely. The rest of things on Tacomas such as brakes, suspension, etc. I think are good or can be upgraded easily.

ARB overseas is dealing with Hilux, which is around about (depending on configuration) a 1,000 kg payload truck, e.g. in the U.S. it could almost be a 3/4 ton truck and would certainly rival a 1/2 ton full size in capacity. So they have a lot more room to play with, having around 500 to 700 lbs additional payload over the Tacoma. That's why I never felt overloading my '91 was a problem. It had a Hilux frame and if the mighty 22R-E could pull it the truck would carry and stop it.

It's a weirdness in our classifications, which favor towed over carried weight. Tacomas are light duty class 1, which means up to 6,000 lbs GVWR. Usually 1/2 to 1 ton full size trucks are class 2, which is up to 8,500 lbs (2a) and 10,000 lbs (2b), and perhaps even class 3, up to 14,000 lbs GVWR. The Hilux/Pickup used to be considered a class 1 but was built stronger, like a class 2a, so the bean counters probably drove the introduction of the T100 and later the Tacoma/Tundra as a way to make trucks unique to the market that weren't over built. Also the truck itself has gained quite a bit of weight, which eats into the payload.

So you're left doing what paranoid56 says, reinforcing the frame, adding stronger springs and crossing your fingers. It doesn't cover you legally, which is mainly a concern should you be in a serious accident involving highway patrol, insurance and lawyers. Being a little over GVWR is very, very unlikely to gain you attention from Johnny Law normally. For the most part highway laws care about 10,001 lbs and heavier and commercial use. Since you don't have to use weigh stations as a private light duty user it's the judgement of a cop as to whether you're over or not. Unless it's obvious no one is going care.

My advice is to adhere to the GWR as best as you can, build with lightweight in mind where ever possible and don't be scared to remove unnecessary things. All those options and comforts add up. The problem in my mind isn't being a bit over once in a while, though, it's being at or over GVWR all the time. That's what fatigues stuff.

 

[blur]

I too have a third gen. I believe these new frames are plenty strong and are stronger than any of the past models. Did any of the past Toyota pickups have an almost 7,000 lb tow capacity? A lot of it is marketing. If the Tacoma was rated to carry more, closer to what a full size could then that would hurt Tundra sales. Also when it comes to licensing a low GVW means cheaper licensing vs a 10,000 lb GVW. Should you try to stay within the rated GVW, yes. Are you going to break your pickup or get in trouble if you are a couple hundred over, no. Have you seen what people put in the back of and haul behind their 3/4 ton diesel that are only rated for maybe 10,000 gvw?

 

[DaveInDenver]

Towed weight is different than payload. The Tacoma can tow a lot, there's no denying that. Which is why I said the brakes are up to the task, as would be the engine and drivetrain. The frame is not. When something is towed the only direct weight the truck bears is the tongue weight. Which is the 700 lbs payload you're given if you assume 10% of max 7,000 lbs trailer.

None of the Tacomas are anything like the 79-95 Pickup/Hilux or any Hilux since. They have fully welded and boxed frames from stem to stern. I believe Toyota's GVWR on both the Tacoma and Tundra is sufficient but that's all. It's not marketing but accountants driving it I think.

 

[Dalko43]

My question is, with companies now bringing trays and canopies over from AUS (that combined on a short bed are approx 350-450kgs) what are they doing to compensate the weight? To me, two people, a tray and canopy with no gear in it, you're basically at 1000lbs. Reading on ARB AUS website, they offer GVM upgrades for different vehicles there, based on my readings for Tacoma related suspension I have yet to find a GVM upgrade.

Thoughts?

You bring up some valid concerns, especially as it relates to the Tacoma. Based on the weights of some of these popup campers, I'd say it's quite easy to go over GVWR by adding one to a Tacoma. The Tacoma's frame isn't the same overbuilt frame as what is used in the Hilux. I suppose boxing the frame and reinforcing some suspension components might help, but I wouldn't consider it the same as having a frame/chassis engineered from the factory to accept a higher payload. My 2 cents is if you're at or over GVWR (e.g. having a camper) you're better off getting a pickup (1/2 ton or up) that is actually designed to carry those loads.

It's a weirdness in our classifications, which favor towed over carried weight. Tacomas are light duty class 1, which means up to 6,000 lbs GVWR. Usually 1/2 to 1 ton full size trucks are class 2, which is up to 8,500 lbs (2a) and 10,000 lbs (2b), and perhaps even class 3, up to 14,000 lbs GVWR. The Hilux/Pickup used to be considered a class 1 but was built stronger, like a class 2a, so the bean counters probably drove the introduction of the T100 and later the Tacoma/Tundra as a way to make trucks unique to the market that weren't over built. Also the truck itself has gained quite a bit of weight, which eats into the payload.

So you're left doing what paranoid56 says, reinforcing the frame, adding stronger springs and crossing your fingers. It doesn't cover you legally, which is mainly a concern should you be in a serious accident involving highway patrol, insurance and lawyers. Being a little over GVWR is very, very unlikely to gain you attention from Johnny Law normally. For the most part highway laws care about 10,001 lbs and heavier and commercial use. Since you don't have to use weigh stations as a private light duty user it's the judgement of a cop as to whether you're over or not. Unless it's obvious no one is going care.

My advice is to adhere to the GWR as best as you can, build with lightweight in mind where ever possible and don't be scared to remove unnecessary things. All those options and comforts add up. The problem in my mind isn't being a bit over once in a while, though, it's being at or over GVWR all the time. That's what fatigues stuff.

I agree with pretty much everything you're saying. The Tacoma likely doesn't have much room for overloading, unlike the Hilux. And it's always a good idea to adhere to GVWR. I will disagree in that I really don't consider a Hilux (with a max payload ~ 2.7k lbs and 7k lbs towing) to be in the same class as a 3/4 ton (which generally have 4k-6klbs payloads and 11k-30klbs tow ratings)....a 1/2 ton maybe, but not a 3/4 ton.

Should you try to stay within the rated GVW, yes. Are you going to break your pickup or get in trouble if you are a couple hundred over, no. Have you seen what people put in the back of and haul behind their 3/4 ton diesel that are only rated for maybe 10,000 gvw?

Not really apples to apples...modern diesel 3/4 ton's generally have GVWR ranging from 10k lbs to 14klbs (depending on if its SRW vs DRW). They are designed from the ground up to carry and tow heavy loads. I don't condone exceeding GVWR's, but if it came to it, I'd feel more comfortable doing so in a 3/4 ton then I would in a midsized pickup.

 

[DaveInDenver]

Yeah, 3/4 ton might be an overstatement.

A 4x4 regular cab Hilux WorkMate can be configured up to 5,850 kg (12,900 lbs) combined weight or 3,000 kg (6,600 lbs) GVWR for a truck that weighs 1,775 kg (3,900 lbs). So payload is 1,225 kg (2,700 lbs). That truck's max braked trailer weight is 3,000 kg (7,000 lbs).

A regular cab 4x4 F250 with 3.73 and gas engine has a combined weight of 12,900 lbs and GVWR of 9,900 lbs for a truck that weighs 6,106 lbs. So payload is 3,793 lbs but non-5th wheel towed GCWR weight is the same. A gooseneck trailer on the lowest F250 is 19,500 lbs, so that obviously is huge.

An F150 regular cab 4x4 V8 weighs 4,517 lbs and has GVWR of 6,400 lbs, leaving a payload of 1,883 lbs and the GCWR is 8,300 lbs for that truck.

My point is the little Hilux holds it's own against the low end of commercial trucks here. Now the question of a GCWR 12,900 lbs with a 4,000 truck being safe and desirable...

 

[Dalko43]

My point is the little Hilux holds it's own against the low end of commercial trucks here. Now the question of a GCWR 12,900 lbs with a 4,000 truck being safe and desirable...

That's a valid observation. The Hilux pickup's I've driven overseas have always struck me as workhorses. Though, as you point out, just because you can load them up to those weights, doesn't mean you should. I'm not knocking Toyota's ratings, but the way I've seen those trucks used overseas didn't always give me a warm and fuzzy....

 

[blur]

Just because a frame is boxed does not make it stronger. Have you been around any heavy duty commercial vehicles lately? Tons of c-channel frames. The $350k fire engine I drive is full c-channel. Boxed frames are stiffer, yes. But that does not mean they are always stronger. Engineers use different metals and designs to build in strength and compliance for ride quality and longevity.

 

[Dalko43]

Just because a frame is boxed does not make it stronger. Have you been around any heavy duty commercial vehicles lately? Tons of c-channel frames. The half-million dollar fire engine I drive is full c-channel. Boxed frames are stiffer, yes. But that does not mean they are always stronger. Engineers use different metals and designs to build in strength and compliance for ride quality and longevity.

The heavy duty commercial comparison is not relevant imo. Those are hauling vehicles designed to carry loads over mostly flat surfaces....they might see off-road use once in a while, but they aren't designed for the same kind of off-road abuse that a land cruiser or pickup are. Moreover I'm sure weight and cost cutting factors into that design choice.

Yes a c channel frame can be designed for high strength (in fairness to the Tacoma, its frame seems to be well built). But all other things being equal (metallurgy, amount of material, physical dimensions, etc) a boxed frame will be stronger than a c channel one. That's why all of Toyota's global platforms (Lc 200, lc prado, lc 70, hilux) have boxed frames. And thats why almost every domestic bof pickup and SUV have boxed frames (the notable exceptions being the Tacoma and the tundra).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[DaveInDenver]

The boxed vs. C-channel frame argument is as old as the Tacoma itself. Yes, commercial truck have c-channel. For that matter so do Unimogs. In the case of 'Mogs their frames are supposed to flex like that and the body accommodates the movement.



I think the relevant comparison is the Tacoma vs. Hilux, not a general discussion. They are close cousins of similar size and weight. I don't know one way or the other that the wall thickness is the exactly same. The material on my 2008 is approximately 0.120" thick. The open section is the same wall thickness but is partially double wall. I assume the Hilux frame is probably something similar like 3mm. It would interesting to know this for sure, though.

Assuming it's made of a similar wall thickness a boxed frame will be more rigid. In fact Mike Sweers has said specifically that the Tacoma frame was modified to be more "compliant". What that means is obviously softer riding.

http://www.automobilemag.com/news/q-a-with-2016-toyota-tacoma-chief-engineer-mike-sweers/

A: So, people use the Toyota Tacoma more as a regular daily vehicle versus the Hilux's work focus?

S: Yes, but we pride ourselves on our off-road heritage and capability. The Tacoma is built to do it. We have no qualms saying that the Hilux and Tacoma are brothers as far as the platform. The basic frame design is similar. We [the Tacoma] have a little bit more compliancy in our frame compared to a Hilux. That's mainly to satisfy the ride requirements for the North American customer. The Hilux is a great truck, a great durable truck. Out of that family, we have the 4Runner [SUV]. That's more refined than the Hilux. The essence of our trucks, the roots of our trucks, comes out of Land Cruiser [SUV]. That sets the standards for all our trucks.

Either way, an open channel would need to be thicker to resist distortion and fatigue at the same force as a boxed profile for a given wall thickness. Bucking does actually happen to Tacomas, which is solved on first gen with those frame plates and all gens sometimes get boxed. You can tell an overloaded Taco from the wrinkle in the section over the rear axle.



I'm not saying the C-channel isn't a totally viable option, it obviously is. It can be strong enough but the Tacoma has a 5,850 lbs GVWR and my opinion is it's not designed with the same expectation to go beyond that as the Hilux and the frame is fundamental element to that.

 

[Clutch]

How to fix the payload in a Tacoma (scroll down)

 

[DaveInDenver]

I can think one disadvantage of going that route, Clutch.

 

[Laxaholic]

How would the 4Runner's payload (say my '97) compare to that of a Tacoma of the same year?

 

[toylandcruiser]

I can think one disadvantage of going that route, Clutch.

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