Perfect off-highway tire = LTX? What?

[80t0ylc]

Here in rural Oregon, if running studless in winter we like to see the mountain/snowflake symbol on sidewall which rates it as a winter "traction
tire". Over mountain passes and some high desert remote areas we see this sign:
Does anyone know if the Defender LTX M/S sports this symbol? If so I'd consider running them year around. Looking online at Tire Rack sales photos, I can't see the symbol on the sidewall. The Yokohama Geolander A/T does have this symbol and what's on a BMW X5 that I'm looking at.

 

[80t0ylc]

They make a winter version of it that has the little three-peak mountain symbol on it and the word Winter in its name https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Michelin&tireModel=LTX+Winter&sidewall=Blackwall

But I don't know if that one is worse in other ways (tread life, etc) as an all-season.

The regular one that doesn't say Winter on it does not have a snowflake or mountain symbol. The zoomed-in photo on TireRack can be zoomed in pretty far with good clarity to make out every feature on the sidewall and the closest it comes to talking about snow is the letters M+S, as well as the description text states that it does not meet severe snow standards and is not a dedicated winter tire.

Visually the two tires look like they have the same tread pattern, same density of sipes and all that so I'd have to imagine it comes down to rubber compound alone.

Thanks for the clarification and link. I don't trust my eyes anymore looking at images online. I agree with your assessment of the difference in tire compounds. Winter compounds are usually softer and wear faster and they would want to sell their winter tires only to those who ask for them.

 

[Grassland]

I think the key take away here is the pressure you run your tires at in non pavement situations. Glad to hear the craigslist bargain has propelled you on so many adventurous miles! If anything you get extra credit for running street tires on adventures while many MT and aggressive AT only pull street duty.

 

[billiebob]

BC changed signs, message last year from



to



I was looking for the winter tires signage but could not find it, it was similar.

 

[calicamper]

Michelin has basically nailed the market on best traction tire options for nearly every vehicle when it comes to pavement. What most people don’t mention is its done mainly with softer rubber and smart tread design. That yes tends to wear out somewhat fast.

BFG quietly came out with what I think is one of the best and under rated tires I’ve ever had. Also BFG and Michelin come out of the same production facility. BFG errs on the more durable rubber side of things. ie better life etc. The BFG Advantage T/A Sports are an interesting sort of hybrid highway tire tread. Hands down the best tire I have had on my Subaru that ate tires. I put them on my Sequoia next and really liked them on that too.

BFG has added sizes and ratings to that model since I first got a set. I think they are worth a look if you want something a little more luggy over the Michelin LTs

 

[80t0ylc]

Everyone has their opinion, but through experience we are swayed in our choice for tires. Yeah, we do our research - we watch and read reviews to keep up with what's the latest and greatest. Face it - tires ARE "where the rubber meets the road". Michelin tires have proven, with out a doubt - to me anyway, one of the best performing tires. Almost always - above and beyond what is normal to expect. My 1st experience with Michelin was a set that were OEM installed on a Mercury Capri II in 1976. They went well over 100K miles before they couldn't be balanced any more and had to be replaced. Excellent winter traction all the way up to replacement. But, rigs that see all kinds of conditions should have tires that will handle the worst condition the driver is willing to endure. Just because the tires appear to be performing above and beyond expectation, doesn't mean they will do that consistantly or until they show a problem. I guess I'm a pessimist. I got that way through experience and anticipating worst case scenarios. And in reality, sometimes even that's not enough.

My hopes are that you're not caught ass deep in gumbo, with a storm coming in sporting the mildest tires you think you can get away with, for the sake of a quiet ride and most mpg while on paved roads. To me, that's like piloting a stock Subaru Outback or Pontiac Aztek through the Rubicon or the Flint Trail & Teapot Canyon on your way to the Dollhouse. You may make it and you may not. Let's say you do..... Now you're going to trust those tires on your way home at 75 or 80 mph on the interstate at maybe 100F with potential hidden sidewall or cord damage? Can we tell the tire engineers that they can take all their research and testing and shove it because we'd rather live on the edge?

 

[calicamper]

Everyone has their opinion, but through experience we are swayed in our choice for tires. Yeah, we do our research - we watch and read reviews to keep up with what's the latest and greatest. Face it - tires ARE "where the rubber meets the road". Michelin tires have proven, with out a doubt - to me anyway, one of the best performing tires. Almost always - above and beyond what is normal to expect. My 1st experience was with Michelin was a set that were OEM installed on a Mercury Capri II in 1976. They went well over 100K miles before they couldn't be balanced any more and had to be replaced. Excellent winter traction all the way up to replacement. But, rigs that see all kinds of conditions should have tires that will handle the worst condition the driver is willing to endure. Just because the tires appear to be performing above and beyond expectation, doesn't mean they will do that consistantly or until they show a problem. I guess I'm a pessimist. I got that way through experience and anticipating worst case scenarios. And in reality, sometimes even that's not enough.

My hopes are that you're not caught ass deep in gumbo, with a storm coming in sporting the mildest tires you think you can get away with, for the sake of a quiet ride and most mpg while on paved roads. To me, that's like piloting a stock Subaru Outback or Pontiac Aztek through the Rubicon or the Flint Trail & Teapot Canyon on your way to the Dollhouse. You may make it and you may not. Let's say you do..... Now you're going to trust those tires on your way home at 75 or 80 mph on the interstate at maybe 100F with potential hidden sidewall or cord damage? Can we tell the tire engineers that they can take all their research and testing and shove it because we'd rather live on the edge?

To be fair most Truck guys who also travel those places know the risk especially pickup truck guys. Not all truck guys use their big truck on those types of dirt tracks. But they do put thousands of miles on them dragging dirt toys to those places. Which case the LTX tires are pretty much king of the hill. But yeah they get stuck on wet grass easily. The full on KO’s and similar tires are typically a solid 3-5mpg hit and kinda suck on the highway. I had them on my trucks for yrs. My last big Moab trip 12 days 2700 miles on pavement I put the BFG Advantage T/A Sports on and don’t think I’ll ever go back to the full on KO’s or alternatives unless I move somewhere where trail fun is nearly a daily thing.

 

[billiebob]

Finally, the new BC signs.

 

[billiebob]

To be fair most Truck guys who also travel those places know the risk especially pickup truck guys. Not all truck guys use their big truck on those types of dirt tracks. But they do put thousands of miles on them dragging dirt toys to those places. Which case the LTX tires are pretty much king of the hill. But yeah they get stuck on wet grass easily. The full on KO’s and similar tires are typically a solid 3-5mpg hit and kinda suck on the highway. I had them on my trucks for yrs. My last big Moab trip 12 days 2700 miles on pavement I put the BFG Advantage T/A Sports on and don’t think I’ll ever go back to the full on KO’s or alternatives unless I move somewhere where trail fun is nearly a daily thing.

For mpg, this was a shock to me.
33x10.50s, I was lucky to get 17mpg. I changed to 7.50R16s.... 22mpg.
A change of tires added 95 miles to my range between gas stations. I'll never got back.

 

[Pskhaat]

My hopes are that you're not caught ass deep in gumbo, with a storm coming in sporting the mildest tires you think you can get away with, for the sake of a quiet ride and most mpg while on paved roads.

Funny. I'm always finding myself in precarious stuck situations. That exact scenario is quite real as I've been stranded in Tuweep as the roads became impassable washes from said summer monsoon storm.

I quite obviously have run and presently own "true" MTs, for my travels they don't have some magical walk-on-mud capabilities. I've been as stuck in that gumbo with as I have without them.

 

[80t0ylc]

..........................I quite obviously have run and presently own "true" MTs, for my travels they don't have some magical walk-on-mud capabilities. I've been as stuck in that gumbo with as I have without them.

Common sense was my point. Of course they're not "magical". M/T tires serve more of a purpose than just mud performance, contrary to their name, and obviously they have their limitations. Here's an example: Conditions were wet but not extremely so. Temps were right around freezing, so surface was slick, but not sloppy - the frost line just under the surface. A fairly steep hill in an area that I frequent, I can walk right up with M/T's. This same hill is next to impossible with A/T's or snow treads with out a run at it. Why? Because the aggressive big lugged tread of the M/T bites into the surface, giving traction and doesn't rely on momentum. It's not flinging mud to clear out the tread, like it needs to in serious mud conditions. The milder treads just can't get the bite and spin uselessly, with out extra momentum. We've all been there - "I can continue forward, but if I stop, I'm stuck" - relying on momentum. Another example: Conditions are a steep, rough, rocky, slope - not slickrock. Tires are aired down for additional traction. Again, a situation where traction, not momentum, will keep you going. This time the biting action of the M/T will claw down to get traction on the firmer rock or soil underneath to pull you up the slope. Where the milder treads will spin excessively on the smaller surface rocks and soil using more thottle and losing rubber to climb the same slope, maybe not even able to reach the top. Sometimes the big lugs will grab an edge that the others won't or can't.

Sure, M/T's have their disadvantages and limitations. They definitely have a narrower useful range than other types. They're not an all purpose tire, that's why mine are not on my rig unless I've got something planned with them in mind. IMHO, they're a blessing to have available, but a poor choice for an all season tire, especially in the winter, at least around here. I've been on overland trips that I was glad to not have the M/T's mounted. The trick is to have them when you need them and leave 'em home when you don't so they last longer. I haven't mastered that one yet.

 

[gwittman]

I agree with Tom 100%. The drawback is needing a space to store the extra set of wheels/tires when they are not being used and the time and effort it takes to change them. It works for me for now but I think when my LTXs wear out this time I may be looking for some AT tires again even if it is a compromise. I don't mind changing the wheels/tires so much, but having two sets of tires result in them getting pretty old before they wear out. It kind of concerns me to be off-road with old tires even if they have good tread.

 

[Regcabguy]

A friend went from AT's to Nitto Dura Grapplers and picked up 2.5 mpg and more stable tracking. He tows heavy to the desert and loves them.

 

[80t0ylc]

.............. I don't mind changing the wheels/tires so much, but having two sets of tires result in them getting pretty old before they wear out. It kind of concerns me to be off-road with old tires even if they have good tread.

Gary, that is a good point and ammunition for buying M/T's that wear fast. Seriously, though, I think the original issue was running at highway speeds in hot weather with old tires that raised the date code concerns. But, in reality, you have a valid point for off road travel, also.

 

[Grassland]

Finally, the new BC signs.

View attachment 555929

a tire with the M+S and a tire with the 3PMS marking are not the same. Interesting they suggest they are. I mean, obviously an actual summer only tire won't have the M+S marking, but there are a lot of all seasons with M+S I wouldn't want to drive on in the winter.
Frankly, my Ko2 with 3PMS aren't that good on hard pack snow or ice, and on the second winter half worn, my Toyo H09 all weathers that also have the 3PMS rating aren't tons better.