huntsonora
Explorer
Do you think if I went with an aftermarket bumper I'd need the 3" coils?
Picking up another 12 valve
- Thread starter huntsonora
- Start date
Do you think if I went with an aftermarket bumper I'd need the 3" coils?
frojoe
Adventurer
It depends on the tire diameter (and brand, that's important too) that you wish to clear the fenders, and if you plan on aftermarket (longer) short control arms, or a long control setup, or stock etc etc.
The Thuren coils are a linear 370lb/in rate (straight from Aaron @ Thuren fab.. not internet word-of-mouth) which means if you added a 200lb-heavier front bumper then the front end would sit 1/4" lower at ride height.
Purely for ride feel, you wouldn't need the 3" springs to compensate for just an aftermarket bumper, or even a bumper+winch. However depending on the tire size and control arm plans.. you'll definitely want 2.5" of actual extra height in the front for smaller 35" tires (34.5" OD) to clear with short OEM-length control arms.
Feel free to ask away any specific combo's or questions you have.. I knew next to nothing about 2nd gens about 3 years ago before I got mine.. and have done a lot of reading and research since then haha.
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huntsonora
Explorer
I would never go larger than a 35" tire and I'm thinking about running a 285/75/17 which would be closer to a 34x11.5" tire.
I purchased these DT Profab control arms that are 1/2" longer than stock to put on when the lift goes on...
xAny thoughts on these to go along with the Thuren coils and king shocks? If I do a bumper it will probably be a ranch hand as they're pretty tough and there's a lot of deer and elk where I run my hunts
Have you figured out what you're going to do with your rear leafs?
huntsonora
Explorer
And I appreciate your help!!! Thank you!
frojoe
Adventurer
Nice, okay that's some good info to go off of. My Firestone MT's are about 34.5" I believe.. I would personally prefer to be closer to the 34.0" than 35.0" for tire clearance.. but I wouldn't dip down to a '33 inch' tire as that'd be in the 32.x" range and would look proportionally undersized for the truck, regardless of level/lift height, IMHO.
Longer short-arms are good enough for almost all applications, in my opinion. It's a slippery slope.. guys want 4, 5, 6+" lift for looks or big tire clearance, then the geometry of the short control arms is compromised and makes it ride like crap, combined with the increase in unsprung mass from the bigger tires, and generally the most common higher-lift springs are stiffer and harsher than Thuren. Because of this, guys say you NEED to do a long arm conversion for good ride quality.. while this certainly holds true, I think it's less required than is often claimed. But you if feel like going thru the fabrication effort, longer control arms with lowered mounting points (relative to the axle) will always improve the ride characteristics.
Those DT Profab arms should be fine for you.. I'm good with poly/rubber bushings as they provide decent NVH compliance.. I'm not necessarily a believer in control arms absolutely needing to have spherical rod ends (either rebuildable or not). The increased length of those DT arms is good too.. I'd say 1/2" longer is a good minimum extra length. Mine are 3/4" longer which works well for tire clearance and centering the front axle in the wheel well at 2.75" increased front height. That being said, I did notice the following differences as I iterated thru different versions of my front suspension:
1) Stock stiff (possibly the snowplow option) springs and flexy stamped OEM control arms with half-worn-out rubber bushings, OEM sway bar with smooshed/hard end link bushings.. ride was firm over small and medium bumps (mostly due to the spring rate), but larger or faster hits it did eventually comply (likely from the control arms flexing and movement in the worn out bushings). Highway corners felt.. like a truck with high center of gravity.. bit rolly but not excessive
2) same as 1) but with 2.5" coil spacers to level.. ride got much harsher over all bumps, all speeds.. purely from the stiff OEM springs having a worse mechanical advantage to them with the raised/compromised short control arm geometry
3) same as 2) but the OEM stamped arms replaced with tubular 3/4" longer control arms with poly bushings.. faster harder hits were just as firm as 2), but smaller or slower bumps were even worst due to the stiffer poly bushings maybe being pre-compressed and stiffer to rotate. Highway cornering was significantly stiffer and more planted than the OEM arms+bushings, and single-wheel bumps and articulation was noticeably stiffer, again due to the stiffer poly bushings
4) same as 3) but with the OEM springs + leveling spacers replaced with Thuren 2" springs and Thuren Fox 2.0 shocks front+rear. Ride became immeasurably better in all regards, body roll was increased, but seemingly back to what 100% OEM was. Front is very planted in corners (slow speed compression tune on the shocks is dialed) but the front still complied excellently over small, medium, large two-wheel and single-wheel bumps (high speed compression tune dialed). The Fox 2.0 shocks on the OEM rear leaf springs (3/1 configuration 2400 lb capacity spring pack) improved medium bump compliance a tiny bit.. but still harsh over small or large bumps.
5) same as 4) but the last OEM piece (front sway bar) was replaced by Thuren sway bar. Roll was increased a noticeable amount on sharper slow speed corners.. truck feels more rolly like an offroader.. but high speed highway cornering is still stable. Single wheel front bumps were improved even more.. truck no longer rocked side-to-side, instead remaining close to level over repeated single wheel bumps.
My next step will be to customize the front control arms a bit to add Thuren rebuildable joints to just the front of the control arms.. this is to allow the end of the control arm which flexes more (axle side) to pivot freely, while keeping the poly bushings on the rear pivots for NVH, since there is minimal side-to-side deflection at the back, and twist at the back should be close to eliminated. On the frame side I'll double check the length of the pivot pins inside the poly bushings to make sure that under bolt tightening, the poly bushings aren't being overly squished. I'll either shave down the bushing faces or remake the pins longer, if need be. I may also just make my own arms from scratch.
I've actually contacted Coil Spring Specialties to make me a set of custom springs for the front, to lower/soften it a bit more. They'll be the same free length as the Thuren springs (which were a ***** to install with the axle still connected to the control arms!) but have an extra active coil and a slightly thinner wire diameter. Idea is have a 1" lower ride height ( 1.75" lift from stock) while providing a 335-340 lb/in ride so a bit softer. Idea is to lower the front for looks and to improve the control arm geometry, and the lower spring rate is just icing on the cake to make it buttery smooth.
For the rear leafs, I'm waiting on the new coils to be made, shipped, and installed, so I know exactly how tall to make the rear leaf blocks to match the new front suspension setup. The leaf brackets are cut, just waiting for me to weld them. Also contemplating whether to powerdercoat them or attempt to etching primer and paint them at home.. I want a solution to make the paint last and not go rusty within a year. I've removed the overload and 5th leafs from the Chevy 64" spring packs, so in theory the rear spring rate should be ~345lb/in. I'll fine tune this once installed and driven offroad both empty and with a realistic load in the bed.
Phewph.. sorry for the long post.. I'm stuck in a long meeting right now haha.
Longer short-arms are good enough for almost all applications, in my opinion. It's a slippery slope.. guys want 4, 5, 6+" lift for looks or big tire clearance, then the geometry of the short control arms is compromised and makes it ride like crap, combined with the increase in unsprung mass from the bigger tires, and generally the most common higher-lift springs are stiffer and harsher than Thuren. Because of this, guys say you NEED to do a long arm conversion for good ride quality.. while this certainly holds true, I think it's less required than is often claimed. But you if feel like going thru the fabrication effort, longer control arms with lowered mounting points (relative to the axle) will always improve the ride characteristics.
Those DT Profab arms should be fine for you.. I'm good with poly/rubber bushings as they provide decent NVH compliance.. I'm not necessarily a believer in control arms absolutely needing to have spherical rod ends (either rebuildable or not). The increased length of those DT arms is good too.. I'd say 1/2" longer is a good minimum extra length. Mine are 3/4" longer which works well for tire clearance and centering the front axle in the wheel well at 2.75" increased front height. That being said, I did notice the following differences as I iterated thru different versions of my front suspension:
1) Stock stiff (possibly the snowplow option) springs and flexy stamped OEM control arms with half-worn-out rubber bushings, OEM sway bar with smooshed/hard end link bushings.. ride was firm over small and medium bumps (mostly due to the spring rate), but larger or faster hits it did eventually comply (likely from the control arms flexing and movement in the worn out bushings). Highway corners felt.. like a truck with high center of gravity.. bit rolly but not excessive
2) same as 1) but with 2.5" coil spacers to level.. ride got much harsher over all bumps, all speeds.. purely from the stiff OEM springs having a worse mechanical advantage to them with the raised/compromised short control arm geometry
3) same as 2) but the OEM stamped arms replaced with tubular 3/4" longer control arms with poly bushings.. faster harder hits were just as firm as 2), but smaller or slower bumps were even worst due to the stiffer poly bushings maybe being pre-compressed and stiffer to rotate. Highway cornering was significantly stiffer and more planted than the OEM arms+bushings, and single-wheel bumps and articulation was noticeably stiffer, again due to the stiffer poly bushings
4) same as 3) but with the OEM springs + leveling spacers replaced with Thuren 2" springs and Thuren Fox 2.0 shocks front+rear. Ride became immeasurably better in all regards, body roll was increased, but seemingly back to what 100% OEM was. Front is very planted in corners (slow speed compression tune on the shocks is dialed) but the front still complied excellently over small, medium, large two-wheel and single-wheel bumps (high speed compression tune dialed). The Fox 2.0 shocks on the OEM rear leaf springs (3/1 configuration 2400 lb capacity spring pack) improved medium bump compliance a tiny bit.. but still harsh over small or large bumps.
5) same as 4) but the last OEM piece (front sway bar) was replaced by Thuren sway bar. Roll was increased a noticeable amount on sharper slow speed corners.. truck feels more rolly like an offroader.. but high speed highway cornering is still stable. Single wheel front bumps were improved even more.. truck no longer rocked side-to-side, instead remaining close to level over repeated single wheel bumps.
My next step will be to customize the front control arms a bit to add Thuren rebuildable joints to just the front of the control arms.. this is to allow the end of the control arm which flexes more (axle side) to pivot freely, while keeping the poly bushings on the rear pivots for NVH, since there is minimal side-to-side deflection at the back, and twist at the back should be close to eliminated. On the frame side I'll double check the length of the pivot pins inside the poly bushings to make sure that under bolt tightening, the poly bushings aren't being overly squished. I'll either shave down the bushing faces or remake the pins longer, if need be. I may also just make my own arms from scratch.
I've actually contacted Coil Spring Specialties to make me a set of custom springs for the front, to lower/soften it a bit more. They'll be the same free length as the Thuren springs (which were a ***** to install with the axle still connected to the control arms!) but have an extra active coil and a slightly thinner wire diameter. Idea is have a 1" lower ride height ( 1.75" lift from stock) while providing a 335-340 lb/in ride so a bit softer. Idea is to lower the front for looks and to improve the control arm geometry, and the lower spring rate is just icing on the cake to make it buttery smooth.
For the rear leafs, I'm waiting on the new coils to be made, shipped, and installed, so I know exactly how tall to make the rear leaf blocks to match the new front suspension setup. The leaf brackets are cut, just waiting for me to weld them. Also contemplating whether to powerdercoat them or attempt to etching primer and paint them at home.. I want a solution to make the paint last and not go rusty within a year. I've removed the overload and 5th leafs from the Chevy 64" spring packs, so in theory the rear spring rate should be ~345lb/in. I'll fine tune this once installed and driven offroad both empty and with a realistic load in the bed.
Phewph.. sorry for the long post.. I'm stuck in a long meeting right now haha.
great find!!! I got 96 12v.
Thuren all the way, i got his 2" spring that gave me exact 2.75" lift (no any aftermarket "weight additives") up front, also running metalcloak arms, bilstein 2.65 acv all around , from 3rd gen, and carli leafs. Ride is much more pleasant comparing to stock.
At least 4 of my friends (2- 2nd gen rams and 2- 3rd gen rams) are using Thuren front coils and his overland shock kits, and they all satisfied with ride quality.
Thuren all the way, i got his 2" spring that gave me exact 2.75" lift (no any aftermarket "weight additives") up front, also running metalcloak arms, bilstein 2.65 acv all around , from 3rd gen, and carli leafs. Ride is much more pleasant comparing to stock.
At least 4 of my friends (2- 2nd gen rams and 2- 3rd gen rams) are using Thuren front coils and his overland shock kits, and they all satisfied with ride quality.
huntsonora
Explorer
Thanks guys! I really appreciate it! frojoe, I can't tell you how much I appreciate you taking the time to write all that out for me
The Tacoma is loaded for the 650 mile trip south and I'm headed out in 20 minutes to pick it up tomorrow morning. I'll get some pics up asap
In the meantime here is a video of the engine that the seller sent to me...
[video]https://youtu.be/nDfiv9CqHZM[/video]
The Tacoma is loaded for the 650 mile trip south and I'm headed out in 20 minutes to pick it up tomorrow morning. I'll get some pics up asap
In the meantime here is a video of the engine that the seller sent to me...
[video]https://youtu.be/nDfiv9CqHZM[/video]
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huntsonora
Explorer
Picked it up and towed my Tacoma back to northern NM with it. Drove nice, it's tuned a little hot for my taste but that's an easy fix. I got 14.8 mpg hand calculated towing the trailer with the Tacoma on it. I'm thrilled about that. The truck has a couple of rust areas but they aren't bad and will be repaired this week. The clutch also slips a little when you get on it so I'll probably go ahead and drop a new one in it. I don't tow a bunch and when I do it's never more than 10,000lbs and I'm going to tune it back down a little so my HP and torque numbers will be reasonable and I won't be billowing black smoke when I accelerate. What clutch would you guys recommend? Is a Luk Pro Gold adequate or would I need to step up to a South Bend
huntsonora
Explorer
Replacing the clutch and flywheel now. Went with the South Bend, might as well go with what a lot of folks believe to be the best. I also upgraded the 5th gear nut and replaced all the fluids in the transfer case and transmission.
My battery cables were pretty bad as well so I bought a set of custom built cables out of Arizona and am going to put those on today
My battery cables were pretty bad as well so I bought a set of custom built cables out of Arizona and am going to put those on today
huntsonora
Explorer
First phase is completed and that was to baseline the truck and make sure that anything that needed to be addressed was addressed and the fluids were changed. I replaced the original clutch with a South Bend 13125OFEK clutch and flywheel and it is awesome!!! This clutch is so nice. I also replaced the clutch slave and master cylinder, replaced the rear main seal, replaced the transfer case output seal, put on a 5th gear but retainer, fixed a leaky gasket where the posi lock goes in, replaced my battery cables with a custom heavy duty set, put on Nitto Terra Grappler G2 tires in 285/75/17 on third gen alloy wheels and checked the valves and replaced the valve gaskets. We also tuned it back a little and it doesn't billow black smoke as I go through the gears. The drivability, at least for me, is much improved.
Second phase will be the suspension and I am either going to go with Thuren springs and Fox shocks or the springs that frojoe is having made. I'll see how he likes his and make a decision. I am also wanting a pacbrake but I will wait a bit for more funding before that happens
I apologize for the tire shop parking lot pic. I won't be headed to scout for a few weeks....
Second phase will be the suspension and I am either going to go with Thuren springs and Fox shocks or the springs that frojoe is having made. I'll see how he likes his and make a decision. I am also wanting a pacbrake but I will wait a bit for more funding before that happens
I apologize for the tire shop parking lot pic. I won't be headed to scout for a few weeks....
huntsonora
Explorer
Had a chance to take the truck to a ranch I outfit hunts on in NM this past weekend. I wanted to get it out and see how it would do and see if there was anything that needed immediate attention and the truck did great. I averaged 18.7 MPG for the entire trip and I'm happy with that
Got to get away and see amazing country. I glassed a bunch of elk, deer and sheep and checked a bunch of trail cameras
A better suspension is next on the list but it may be a couple months before I pull the trigger on it
Got to get away and see amazing country. I glassed a bunch of elk, deer and sheep and checked a bunch of trail cameras
A better suspension is next on the list but it may be a couple months before I pull the trigger on it
huntsonora
Explorer
Loaded up the family, rented a Rockwood Roo Hybrid toyhauler and headed to Grand Teton National Park. It's not normally how I roll BUT it's been a fantastic trip so far. The wife and kids are thoroughly enjoying themselves and that makes for a great getwaway.
I've always wondered what one of these 12 valves would get for mileage if you kept it between 35 and 50 mph and today I was able to find out. Daily driving it over the past month I've seen anywhere from high 17's to right at 20 mpg. If I'm on the interstate it'll get right at 20. Today I filled up at the campground and we made the run to see Old Faithful and a few other sights with the kids and we made a 142.7 mile loop and ended up back at the filling station at the campground. I filled it to the brim as I normally do and it only took 5.737 gallons. I couldn't believe it! We never got above 2k RPM's for any extended period of time and probably averaged 45 mph. It got 25 MPG on the loop. Crazy how efficient these old trucks are if you keep the RPM's down
I've always wondered what one of these 12 valves would get for mileage if you kept it between 35 and 50 mph and today I was able to find out. Daily driving it over the past month I've seen anywhere from high 17's to right at 20 mpg. If I'm on the interstate it'll get right at 20. Today I filled up at the campground and we made the run to see Old Faithful and a few other sights with the kids and we made a 142.7 mile loop and ended up back at the filling station at the campground. I filled it to the brim as I normally do and it only took 5.737 gallons. I couldn't believe it! We never got above 2k RPM's for any extended period of time and probably averaged 45 mph. It got 25 MPG on the loop. Crazy how efficient these old trucks are if you keep the RPM's down
huntsonora
Explorer
What are y'all using to host pics now that Photobucket wants $400?
Also, I have a Dana 80 with 4.10's in my truck and want to go with 3.55's for mileage as I don't tow a lot of heavy weight. My options are a regear or go with taller tires. 37" tires would drop my RPM's but I'm afraid the much heavier tires would stress the front end too much. I found a Dana 70 rear and Dana 60 front from a 2001 Ram that has the 3.55's and may just swap axles out of it's an easy swap. I think the rear brakes are different
Thoughts?
Also, I have a Dana 80 with 4.10's in my truck and want to go with 3.55's for mileage as I don't tow a lot of heavy weight. My options are a regear or go with taller tires. 37" tires would drop my RPM's but I'm afraid the much heavier tires would stress the front end too much. I found a Dana 70 rear and Dana 60 front from a 2001 Ram that has the 3.55's and may just swap axles out of it's an easy swap. I think the rear brakes are different
Thoughts?