Questions about flex

moroza

New member
I'm designing a very small (4' x 5' x 8') camper to replace the bed of an '81 Toyota 4x4. I'm on the third iteration of the design (first was wood, then steel, now aluminum), and having visited a metal yard and checked out what's available and what it feels like, I'm about to do a fourth iteration. I have some questions about the flexibility of materials. I ditched the wood design because I wanted the camper to survive a slow rollover accident without bursting apart. Wood doesn't bend; it splinters and breaks. Then I moved on to welded steel, which bends nicely well before breaking, but ditched it for being too heavy. Then I moved on to aluminum, but what I've read seems to be summarized thus:

The critical factor here is whether the structure will need to flex or not. If it does need to flex then 3x more aluminum is required and since it is a third the weight of steel it has no weight advantage BUT if the structure does not need to flex then you should achieve al least a saving of at least 35-45% in weight to get the same or comparable strength from steel.

I presume this has more to do with aluminum's lack of a fatigue limit, rather than its decreased elasticity or plasticity compared to steel.

The design in the second and third (current) iteration is to have two mounts in front, one on each frame rail, and a single center mount. I believe this is what's known as a "pivot mount" (bear with me, I'm new to this :). The mounts are tentatively soft rubber or even hydraulic-filled motor mounts, and the idea is so that the camper can move a lot, relative to the truck frame, without ever having to flex. But the big question is this: should I consider crash-worthiness as "flex", for the purposes of materials used, or can I get away with assuming the camper will be stiff, and that one big impact (rather than a lot of twisting and vibration over time) won't tear it apart much more than a steel structure?
 
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fluffyprinceton

Adventurer
HTML:
survive a slow rollover accident without bursting apart
This is not a materials issue - it's a design problem. Your design criteria can be met with all the materials you mentioned. Preventing "bursting apart" is one thing & not hard to do, having a usable camper after a slow rollover would be very difficult - a structure that would not deform or puncture would likely be too heavy to be useable in the first place. The cost, engineering, skill & weight would be several magnitudes greater than with the more conventional design goals. If you did go to the effort and the rollover was ah...fast...or on a rock...or into water...well how does one predict an accident??? Having your design revolve around a single theoretical disaster mode is strange...what's your thinking?

If people were carried inside it would be another matter & perhaps a seat specific roll cage could be done reasonably & could protect for a much wider range of accidents.Moe
 

moroza

New member
<shrug> I don't know, I've never done this before, it just seems that a slow rollover is the likeliest type of accident I'd get into. I'm not worried about small holes and general deformation; it's complete disintegration that I don't want to happen. The idea is to be able to winch myself back upright and drive out of there without losing the contents of the camper. Having to rebuild it is fine; it breaking apart and dumping all my tools, clothes, food and whatnot is what I'd like to prevent with a structure that if it takes a big blunt hit, bends before breaking.

A typical roll cage would do the job, but based on what I've seen (trucks thrown off a hill several times and still being what I'd call intact), it's a bit overkill.
 

ExpoMike

Well-known member
The best I can tell you is, campers are not meant to be rolled over (flop on side, completely over, etc.). Even containers (like on big rig trucks) don't do well when flopped or dropped and they are way stronger than any camper will ever be.

Figure if you roll the camper, it and it's contents will be all over the place and the camper a total loss. If this is not something you want to accept, I might suggest not traveling off road. Can you build it... yes but you're going to need a much bigger truck than your Toyota.

Good luck.
 

moroza

New member
The best I can tell you is, campers are not meant to be rolled over (flop on side, completely over, etc.). Even containers (like on big rig trucks) don't do well when flopped or dropped and they are way stronger than any camper will ever be.

Figure if you roll the camper, it and it's contents will be all over the place and the camper a total loss. If this is not something you want to accept, I might suggest not traveling off road. Can you build it... yes but you're going to need a much bigger truck than your Toyota.

Good luck.

Well, I'm still going off road, but then what standard should be used for structural strength?
 

fluffyprinceton

Adventurer
Well, I'm still going off road, but then what standard should be used for structural strength?

Great question - campers aren't like boats, there isn't the sea out there keeping everybody relatively honest...I'm amazed how little structural strength is needed to keep a camper whole on rough roads - at least compared to any boat. So if you look at Alaskan Campers, 4 Wheel campers and XPCampers (the three I'm most familiar with) they all do fine in the rough & are built very differently...It's really easy to find campers that stand up to rough road conditions - so pick the material you are most comfortable with, look for successful examples to get specific building methods & go for it...

The structural strength of a camper needs to:

1. either be stiff OR flexible enough to resist the racking forces induced by it's own mass + enough reserve strength to deal with a gentle back up into a tree... As the truck rock, rolls, jolts & stops the main forces acting on the camper shell are from it's own mass - lighter is always an advantage. The composite monocoque structure of the XPCamper is a great example of the light & stiff approach. The wood frame, aluminum skin structure of the Alaskan is an example of the flexible approach - it doesn't look flexible but the aluminum skin isn't structurally bonded to the frame - this allows the frame to move quite a bit without pulling the aluminum apart at it's sealed edges.

2.have sufficient bond strength between the structural members to resist those particular repetitive loads that come from washboard roads - shaking, vibrational loads...Again a stiff approach as with composite sandwich materials OR a flexible approach as with a sikaflex bonded skin or the Alaskan Camper example are successful approaches.

3. have an outer surface resistant to puncture or deformation by tree branches or hail for instance. Non structurally bonded thin aluminum is the worst in this case...I saw an Alaskan that went through a hail storm, if I had to replicate the surface I'd take 7 meth addled monkeys and give them ball peen hammers...it's also difficult to repair without replacing the whole sheet. When the aluminum is bonded to plywood or foam with high compressive strength it's one of the best surface materials (and...if you don't paint it the least effort to maintain). Of course if you go to aluminum say 0.190 (about 3/16) it will be stiff enough but the weight penalty makes it a poor choice for a recreational camper - it's not just the aluminum's weight, it's the insulation needed with it's interior finishing materials and the framing needed to build a practical interior.

4.the materials and their bonding materials must have enough fatigue resistance to survive the severe cyclic loads campers live with - temperature and humidity extremes accompanied by those racking, shaking & vibrational loads over say a 20 year life span.

A couple related thoughts -

Mixing stiff and flexible building approaches is possible - as with the fabric sided tops on 4 Wheel campers. But it's difficult with a hard side - you should have a good understanding of materials & experience with building dynamically loaded structures I'd think...

When you come from a house building background it's typical to think of the shell and the interior structures as separate design problems - this is a mistake with campers. If you try & make every piece of interior reinforce the exterior shell you'll end up with a stronger & lighter camper. This can be done with any building technique although it's easiest with wood & composite builds because the interior materials tend to be similar to the shell materials in terms of the bonding materials & techniques. Welding a bed/table/cabinet structure is much more difficult than building with plywood or composite panels...

Interestingly it's the interaction between truck bed flex & the camper structure that typically causes the most damage in rough road use - as you know...

If you have a specific design plan to comment on that would help - Moe
 

ujoint

Supporting Sponsor
We did a pivot on V4, similar to what you're describing. Tried some hard rubber mounts up front and they didn't hold up, so we went to a hard mount for now. I don't have the camper anymore so flex isn't as much of an issue.

860_V4_booty_twist_w_logo.jpg
 

BlueCoyote

Observer
If you are planning for a slow roll or tree impact - you do not want flexible or to rely on the camper. The Toyota frame is rather rigid and the overall truck light, so would not worry about 3 point set ups. Consider a frame mounted exo style cage with an aluminum inner camper. Let the cage do the hard work, and the camper keep you warm and dry. For cage to work - triangulation is the key. For your size and weight I would use 1.75x.120 DOM due to the long side run length and 1.50 x 0.95 for the bracing. Front would be a V, sides triangulated at the ends, rear wide V to clear the door.
My 84 Toyota Baja chase truck had a similar set up with an aluminum cap - and did flop it over with no damage. Will try and find a photo.
 

moroza

New member
If you have a specific design plan to comment on that would help - Moe

Great response, Moe, thank you! I did have a specific design, though it's in need of revision. It's a frame made of 2x1x0.125 aluminum tubing (riveted), skinned on the outside with 0.019" alu sheeting, on the inside with 1/8" plywood (1/2" for the floor), and with 3 inches of polyisocyanurate insulation. This cross-section below shows how I staggered the insulation and alu frame to avoid thermal bridging. Essentially, the outer alu skin "hangs" on the inner frame. The logic behind this is two things: 1. I want as much thermal mass on the inside as possible without increasing total mass, and 2. Crumple zone. I figured it would provide some cushioning for the frame during any impacts (scenario: I slide down a hill and bang the camper into a rock. Some outer skinning is mangled, a layer or two of insulation is crushed, but the frame takes no damage and only thin sheetmetal and rigid foam needs replaced). Other than doors and windows, the only thermal bridges would be at the three camper-to-frame mounts, where a wooden spacer would take the place of insulation above a polyurethane or rubber mount. My priorities were low weight and high thermal insulation.

cross section.jpg

3. have an outer surface resistant to puncture or deformation by tree branches or hail for instance. Non structurally bonded thin aluminum is the worst in this case...I saw an Alaskan that went through a hail storm, if I had to replicate the surface I'd take 7 meth addled monkeys and give them ball peen hammers...it's also difficult to repair without replacing the whole sheet. When the aluminum is bonded to plywood or foam with high compressive strength it's one of the best surface materials (and...if you don't paint it the least effort to maintain). Of course if you go to aluminum say 0.190 (about 3/16) it will be stiff enough but the weight penalty makes it a poor choice for a recreational camper - it's not just the aluminum's weight, it's the insulation needed with it's interior finishing materials and the framing needed to build a practical interior.

Do you think backing it with rigid foam insulation would help enough? Or do I need thicker skinning regardless?

When you come from a house building background it's typical to think of the shell and the interior structures as separate design problems - this is a mistake with campers. If you try & make every piece of interior reinforce the exterior shell you'll end up with a stronger & lighter camper. This can be done with any building technique although it's easiest with wood & composite builds because the interior materials tend to be similar to the shell materials in terms of the bonding materials & techniques. Welding a bed/table/cabinet structure is much more difficult than building with plywood or composite panels...

Reinforcing the whole thing with interior fixtures is something I considered, but I deliberately left it out of planning for two reasons. One, it's my first such design project and just designing a box is complicated enough. Two, it's not my first experience living in a vehicle, but the first in something purpose-built, and I forsee that no matter what interior I design, I'm going to want to redesign it within a year or two. Having thin, non-loadbearing plywood interior panels and partitions would make them a lot easier to modify and rearrange later.

Interestingly it's the interaction between truck bed flex & the camper structure that typically causes the most damage in rough road use - as you know...
Yes, I'm quite aware of this, hence the pivot frame. Further towards this end, I wanted to have soft rubber body mounts (same style as those that mount the cab to the frame), or even fluid-filled motor mounts like my BMW has, if that'll work.

If you are planning for a slow roll or tree impact - you do not want flexible or to rely on the camper. The Toyota frame is rather rigid and the overall truck light, so would not worry about 3 point set ups. Consider a frame mounted exo style cage with an aluminum inner camper. Let the cage do the hard work, and the camper keep you warm and dry. For cage to work - triangulation is the key. For your size and weight I would use 1.75x.120 DOM due to the long side run length and 1.50 x 0.95 for the bracing. Front would be a V, sides triangulated at the ends, rear wide V to clear the door.
My 84 Toyota Baja chase truck had a similar set up with an aluminum cap - and did flop it over with no damage. Will try and find a photo.

I've seen Toyotas with exocages being tossed down hills multiple times, and that sure makes an impression! Only thing is, those cages are rather heavy, and will make rollover accidents more likely to happen in the first place. I'm concerned that the weight of a cage big enough to cover the camper, plus the weight of the camper itself, is going to overload the truck. I've heard of 4x4 Chinooks snapping the frame when offroading at or beyond rated GWR. The box based on the above design would come in at roughly 600#, displacing a ~200# bed and giving me, based on stock payload rating, ~700# of cargo capacity. I'm trying real hard to keep the gross weight of this whole thing as low as I can get away with. I'd like to be able to actually take it off-road and also be a grocery-getter for the campsite.

Based on some of these comments and some other reading I've done since making the above design, I've got some intended changes that I haven't drawn out yet:

1. Change from a 3-point mount to an 8-point mount using the factory bed mounting points, but use spring-loaded mounts, possibly with rubber in there somewhere as well. This is to reduce pressure points on the frame and hopefully prevent it from cracking or splitting.

2. Increase outer skin thickness. I don't know if I can still have the outer skin "float" on the frame if it gets heavier, or to be honest even at the weight it's at right now. The alu outer skin is thin because its only function is to keep mud and water out. If I make it substantially thicker, it seems foolish to not make it structural. Which means attaching it rigidly to the frame. Which means no crumple zone and possibly inferior thermal characteristics (but not more thermal bridging than currently). It also means I can reduce framing to reduce weight, so it's a whole redesign.
 
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fluffyprinceton

Adventurer
As a general thing wood framing (replacing the alu in your sketch) can return to it's original shape after impacts better than alu - provided it doesn't break... The design question/balance is when does an impact crack wood framing but not deform the alu framing enough to need repair (alu wins!) versus an impact that deforms the alu but the wood rebounds (wood wins!). In the real world I think given equal build weight it's a wash - with the advantage going to the designers & builders familiarity with the material. (craftsmanship wins!!!!)

1. 3 inches of insulation is over kill for such a small interior volume & adding 2, 3 or 4 inches to the interior space would be much more useful. You are right to deal with thermal bridging...that's the biggest problem compared to keeping warm in such a small enclosed space. This assumes it will have some sort of heater & you are comfortable (cool with???) sleeping bags at night. I always found cold floors the main problem so maybe more insulation there - down booties go a long way but if you can deal with the concept some sort of floor radiant heat is great. Here's a good post on camper insulation from an excellent & well documented build - http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/48351-out-with-the-old-in-with-the-new

post#434
Quote Originally Posted by Ford Prefect View Post
So now that you have had the truck for a couple of years, and used it more than a few times in the winter... WHat do you think of it's insulative capabilities? Does it require a great deal of effort to keep it warm, does it stay fairly warm on its own, or do you just use thick sleep systems?

Anything you would change in this regard, like the thickness of the walls, etc?

Thanks

The camper is insulated enough for any cold, from the information that was given to me by the wall panel manufacturer was a rating of R-7 per inch, I have 2" so R-14 ish. With that I dont need much heat, my cat heater is the one we use most often and it is a 3000BTU unit, we use it on low for continuous heat but will put it on high to get the camper warmed up when cold, I believe on low its 1600BTU. So with that said heating isnt an issue as much as ventilation is, in the winter condensation can form on the windows and walls if there is no air flow and with airflow comes cooling and the need for continuous heat, (vicious circle). If its real cold we will keep the cat on low overnight but if it is above freezing will just turn all heat off and turn it on in the morning, keeping in mind we have the Espar too. The only thing that I might change would be to not worry too much about really thick walls, if using a similar wall construction 1 1/2" would be fine.

2. "crumple zone" - that's an interesting idea...1" of low compressive foam sheathed with .019 alu would provide a degree of protection - decreasing the impact damage to the frame as you suggest. Soft mounts to the truck frame would do the same (assuming the shell is stiff enough to transfer the impact load to the mounts...) I'm leery of spending too much design energy on narrow failure modes - designing for 1-5mph impacts is a wonderfully complicated business! Personally on such a small camper
(4' x 5' x 8')
with minimal side overhangs I think you might be overthinking the theoretical problem. BUT it's a great experiment.
I'd approach the problem more from a "ease of repair" angle - since I can't control the conditions of a future accident I would use a construction method I can repair - that's my idea of "control". From that perspective alu framed builds as you've sketched are more difficult to repair compared to composite or wood builds - I may be talking into my hat on that one because I've never repaired a alu frame build, while composites & wood are my natural element. The point being the material you have the most experience & affinity for is the right material for you.
So how would you fix a bent alu internal frame with the skin all deformed & the interior wood deformed or debonded?

Back to "crumple zone" - pods8 has an on going build and ran some tests on foamular 600 foam - which gets to the role compressive strength plays when asking insulation to perform structural duties.

Post#22 -http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/58926-POD-Homebuilt-foam-core-fiberglass-skin-pop-up-camper-build-thread/page3?highlight=pods8

I'd suggest bonding your alu to your insulation and seeing what impacts do. The weaker the compressive strength the greater the skin deformation. So you have to choose between a tougher skin with more forces being passed on to adjoining structural elements or a softer skin that might bend & crease enough to ask for occasional tedious cosmetic remediation. For a long time airliners used balsa core in aircraft floors - the controlling impact factor being high heels! Balsa's high compressive strength was better than the foams of the day.
Do you think backing it with rigid foam insulation would help enough? Or do I need thicker skinning regardless?
Keep the light skin & back it with tougher foam determined after sample testing.

Keeping the interior free of significant structural elements keeps future design options open - GOOD! at the price of greater weight - BAD! A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do... Just consider how to bond interior structures easily to your chosen material.

Given your small panel sizes you might consider home built composite panel construction - if you have the room to make the panels and aren't afraid (or allergic...) to epoxy and sanding...I've been wanting to make a DIY panel (starting from the outside) alu/structural glass/structural core/structural glass/thin ply. NO SANDING necessary to get an attractive surface.Moe
 

moroza

New member
... with the advantage going to the designers & builders familiarity with the material. (craftsmanship wins!!!!)

Well, I'm a mechanic first, a carpenter and metalworker tied for second. I've built whole projects from scratch more with wood, but made small random repairs and minor fabrications more with metal. I feel more familiar with steel than anything, followed by alu and wood about equally. I have zero experience with fiberglass and other composites, and next to zero with adhesives (those that work, anyway).

1. 3 inches of insulation is over kill for such a small interior volume & adding 2, 3 or 4 inches to the interior space would be much more useful. You are right to deal with thermal bridging...that's the biggest problem compared to keeping warm in such a small enclosed space. This assumes it will have some sort of heater & you are comfortable (cool with???) sleeping bags at night. I always found cold floors the main problem so maybe more insulation there - down booties go a long way but if you can deal with the concept some sort of floor radiant heat is great. Here's a good post on camper insulation from an excellent & well documented build - http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/48351-out-with-the-old-in-with-the-new

Might be overkill, but it won't add much weight (or that much cost, either) and with how I want to avoid thermal bridging with the frame thickness I have, it's just about necessary. I'll stick with it. I intend to take it to places where it might not be overkill after all; the target temperature I've used for thermal calculations is -40. I don't have nearly as much thermal mass as most campers, either, so I have to rely on insulation more.

2. "crumple zone" - that's an interesting idea...1" of low compressive foam sheathed with .019 alu would provide a degree of protection - decreasing the impact damage to the frame as you suggest. Soft mounts to the truck frame would do the same (assuming the shell is stiff enough to transfer the impact load to the mounts...) I'm leery of spending too much design energy on narrow failure modes - designing for 1-5mph impacts is a wonderfully complicated business! Personally on such a small camper with minimal side overhangs I think you might be overthinking the theoretical problem. BUT it's a great experiment.
I'd approach the problem more from a "ease of repair" angle - since I can't control the conditions of a future accident I would use a construction method I can repair - that's my idea of "control". From that perspective alu framed builds as you've sketched are more difficult to repair compared to composite or wood builds - I may be talking into my hat on that one because I've never repaired a alu frame build, while composites & wood are my natural element. The point being the material you have the most experience & affinity for is the right material for you.

I hear you, and this is something for me to chew on, because I've worked some with alu, but it's not my most familiar material. My only big problem with steel is weight, and the increased likelihood of ever relying on impact-resistant strength if I have a lot of weight up high.

So how would you fix a bent alu internal frame with the skin all deformed & the interior wood deformed or debonded?
Good question! As "field" repairs go, fiberglass is about the only reasonable material, it seems: a small vat of resin and a roll of the material. Everything else requires carrying spare panels. But I have zero experience with fiberglass. The idea is that minor damage would just bounce off or make pound-out-able dents in the skin, major damage wouldn't make limping home impractical (one wall destroyed, but the frame is intact and therefore so are the other walls), and catastrophic damage... is catastrophic damage no matter how I build it. In the first scenario, I drill out rivets or unscrew screws, pound out the dents, and put the panel back on, perhaps sans the outer inch of foam (which gets replaced later). Apart from lack of successful experience with adhesives, I don't plan on using them much if at all, specifically to make disassembly easier for repairs. In the second scenario, I can repair a wall with locally-sourced plywood, steel, random composite, or even planks of wood if I have to, and the structure would stay intact enough that I can then make it to a facility where I can rebuild as much of the camper as necessary. In terms of amount of disassembly, I don't see wood being any easier. Welded steel would be marginally easier (cut out the bent section and butt-weld in a new one), but steel that's thick enough to weld is too heavy to use as general frame material. Riveted steel - which can be thinner - seems no easier than riveted alu.

Back to "crumple zone" - pods8 has an on going build and ran some tests on foamular 600 foam - which gets to the role compressive strength plays when asking insulation to perform structural duties.

Post#22 -http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/58926-POD-Homebuilt-foam-core-fiberglass-skin-pop-up-camper-build-thread/page3?highlight=pods8

I'd suggest bonding your alu to your insulation and seeing what impacts do. The weaker the compressive strength the greater the skin deformation. So you have to choose between a tougher skin with more forces being passed on to adjoining structural elements or a softer skin that might bend & crease enough to ask for occasional tedious cosmetic remediation.

Good homework for me. With three inches of insulation, I can afford to have the outer layer be less than optimal thermally, if the benefit is greater strength.

Some screenshots of the new design:
schema 3.0 full frame.jpg
schema 3.0 alu frame.jpg
schema 3.0 cross section.jpg

2x2x1/8" alu square tube frame where strength (floor) and impact resistance (edges and overcab area) are required; 2x1 wood everywhere else, mostly to keep the skin from flexing too much; 1/16" alu skin, riveted to the alu frame and screwed to the wood frame. The skin is not shown except in the cross-section, but it's very much structural, keeping the walls from becoming parallellograms, especially around the wheel arches. Interior design can remain somewhat of an afterthought, as far as structural integrity goes.

My concern with using wood for skin stiffening is that it has much lower thermal expansion than the skin it supports. Otherwise I'd use aluminum angle stock; 1x1x1/4" is slightly heavier, a lot more expensive, and at my guess neither as stiff nor as strong as 2x1 wood. Is this materials mismatch likely to become a problem?
 
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Tank5

Adventurer
I do not have much to offer in reference to the materials your looking at and how they hold up in an accident/rollover. But looking at your more recent design sketch I have to ask if you have considered using a chinook camper as a transplant on the back of your truck (hard part is finding one). It has a fiberglass shell with a steal frame on the interior to support the fiberglass mold. You can use foam board inside for insulation and finish the inside to fit your needs. I have a little experience with fiberglass and find it is not hard to repair. In respect to a rollover at low speed I expect it will not explode and if righted could limp home. High speed role over it is anyone guess.

I have chinook built on a tundra in the Toyota vehicle section if you interested it seeing how it turned out. Just wanted to share another idea.
 

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