Recovery Ring Double Rigging

Metcalf

Expedition Leader
Let's talk about the concept of being able to double rig recovery rings for 4-5:1 mechanical advantage

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I've gotten asked a lot since releasing my own Recovery Ring design why I made it a chunky 2 inches thick with such a large center hole and gentle ID radius, well this is ONE of the reasons why. I know this is going to be controversial, but this technique will allow a 4 or 5:1 mechanical advantage with only two Recovery Rings and no winch extension required like in a Spanish Burton. In order to do this safely, the Ring soft shackles will have to be increased in load capacity. ( And we will be providing this option in the near future) The forces this system can generate are amazing if you have a slightly underpowered winch and\or are in a situation where you are very close to the anchor\load and require much more force than a traditional single pulley can provide. Is this going to be a super common use practice, no. Does having gear that can accommodate these techniques add value to already amazing quality gear, absolutely! The only real 'catch' is that you have to be able to fit the end of the winch line through the center on the ring.....you can do that right?

Here is a good video on Youtube about the technique.


Questions?
 

Metcalf

Expedition Leader
Interesting video.
But makes me nuts as his mentioning "increasing power" when his pulley scheme cant.
Either he is pandering to a low demonimator or he does not know any better.
Btw,
I seen this guy somewhere before.

Please don't turn this into a nomenclature debate.....pulleys do multiply the force available/generated by a winch system. When shooting videos and talking to the camera slip up's can be made....or his terminology is just different.
 

J!m

Active member
I dunno. Sure, the mechanical advantage is there (if you can fish the line through as you note, or fish a loop to a snatch block) but you already should have a properly rated winch, and a snatch block to double that rating. Since synthetic line has so little stretch, close pulls are not the bother they were with stretchy steel cable back in the olden days.

I don't doubt the system works, being physics and all, and perhaps some can use this on occasion, but it seems a bit unnecessary to me personally.

I do see the advantage of spooling out more rope, so you are closer to the drum and therefore the stated rating of the winch.
 

Metcalf

Expedition Leader
I dunno. Sure, the mechanical advantage is there (if you can fish the line through as you note, or fish a loop to a snatch block) but you already should have a properly rated winch, and a snatch block to double that rating. Since synthetic line has so little stretch, close pulls are not the bother they were with stretchy steel cable back in the olden days.

I don't doubt the system works, being physics and all, and perhaps some can use this on occasion, but it seems a bit unnecessary to me personally.

I do see the advantage of spooling out more rope, so you are closer to the drum and therefore the stated rating of the winch.

Being able to rig more mechanical advantage is never a bad thing, especially without needing additional gear. It gives you more options. This isn't going to be a every day type technique, but it is something of value to know that your gear can be capable of.

One thing I am dying to try this technique on is rigging it 'off' the vehicle. Situations where the ring one would be uphill across the road....ring two attached to the vehicle in trouble. I can then feed into the system inline with the road, or slightly uphill, but generate a significant advantage to be able to pull a vehicle sideways back onto the road. ( But with limited input force causing less winch vehicle sliding )

Being able to swing up in weight class with the winch vehicle tied off to something. This will help smaller lighter vehicles recover larger vehicles.

I'd also like to try this style setup for backwards winching.

All these possibilities weigh nothing extra.
 

J!m

Active member
Good points.

And anchor vehicles need to be anchored. I was in a situation going uphill on a decent but rocky trail. Shorter wheelbase trucks were making it but I got hung up in a corner with my 110. I double lined up to a string of three trucks and proceeded to drag all three of them down hill…

It’s also helpful to anchor when snapping winch rope. Another situation doing some “diesel gardening “ triple-line to a stump with a tie-off to a tree behind me. Snapped the line but I did get the stump to move a bit.

I run a Husky10 so not an insignificant amount of force.
 

J!m

Active member
That’s not my experience. And that stretch is how it stores energy rapidly released when they snap.

But it was used for decades for recreation and still is for vehicle recovery. I prefer the synthetic rope these days.
 

WOODY2

Adventurer
Dyneema (and equivalent) stretch around 3%.
Going out on a limb...
I will say its a slower rebound, loose lay/woven construction and lighter weight makes those synthetics safer when broken.
I don't think you're out on a limb, it's factual that a broken synthetic is safer that wire.
 

Metcalf

Expedition Leader
When were those days ?
Elastic stretch of wire rope is less than 1%.

This would be only in the 'elastic' range...which is typically only about 50-60% of MBS.

Wire rope on winches is commonly operated above that range and you will see some plastic deformation that exceeds 1% stretch.

5/16" wire rope on most recreational winches is going to have an MBS of 10k-lbs or less, good quality 3/8 steel will be about 15k MBS.
It isn't uncommon to find winches that are operating steel cable at 75-90% of MBS.

There is also a 'structural' stretch that it must go through to get all the strands happy and settled. Depending on the quality of the cable, this can be a VERY apparent change in the length of the line.
 

Metcalf

Expedition Leader
Dyneema (and equivalent) stretch around 3%.
Going out on a limb...
I will say its a slower rebound, loose lay/woven construction and lighter weight makes those synthetics safer when broken.

Most of the 3% figures come from taking the line all the way to MBS, not just operating in the 'elastic' range for synthetic fibers.
Generally, most synthetic lines of decent quality are operating at a much lower percentage of overall strength than their steel counterparts.
It isn't uncommon to have 5/16" Dyneema that has an MBS that is as good as 3/8" steel.

Technically, Dyneema and most other high strength materials commonly used in synthetic winch rope, are non-linear polymers. This generally means that we have a bit more going on in order to plot strength.....mainly adding a time component. We also have to worry about temperature slightly more, but this is generally blown completely out of proportion. There are a good amount of industrial processes that use heat to further 'set' the fibers in synthetics which further increases that overall strength ( vs cross sectional area )

Most of the safety increase with synthetics does come from vastly less mass. The construction of the synthetics is also based on MANY more fibers than steel ( hundreds to thousands vs only a handful ), so the 'cascade' of failure usually has a much longer time component which absorbs energy.
 

emtmark

Austere Medical Provider
Where are people getting the rings to do this with?

I’m going slightly bonkers looking for a ring large enough to pass my eye through.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 

Metcalf

Expedition Leader
Where are people getting the rings to do this with?

I’m going slightly bonkers looking for a ring large enough to pass my eye through.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


I also offer the ring alone, but I HIGHLY suggest getting the entire package so everything works the best it can.

My ring was designed with a 2.16" center hole, to make this type of rigging possible. You can pass a normal 1/2" tube thimble, but not one of those big chunky bits that that are pretty common these days. I have moved onto using a soft loop or soft shackle on the end of my winch line on all my personal vehicles to make this much easier. The soft shackle can then be connected right back to the ring when rigging a 4:1. My ring is also a full 2" thick to provide a more gentle radius when working the 'short' direction through the middle.

If you plan on experimenting with double rigging, I suggest picking up a 2nd soft shackle for each ring to increase the overall load capacity. Double rigging rings can put a LARGE load on them and that load should honestly be distributed to multiple anchor points whenever possible. If you only have a single anchor point, I still suggest doubling up the soft shackle when double rigging. This makes it possible to keep a 2:1 minimum FoS when dealing with an ~10k winch.

If you have any other questions, please let me know.
 

Alloy

Well-known member

I also offer the ring alone, but I HIGHLY suggest getting the entire package so everything works the best it can.

My ring was designed with a 2.16" center hole, to make this type of rigging possible. You can pass a normal 1/2" tube thimble, but not one of those big chunky bits that that are pretty common these days. I have moved onto using a soft loop or soft shackle on the end of my winch line on all my personal vehicles to make this much easier. The soft shackle can then be connected right back to the ring when rigging a 4:1. My ring is also a full 2" thick to provide a more gentle radius when working the 'short' direction through the middle.

If you plan on experimenting with double rigging, I suggest picking up a 2nd soft shackle for each ring to increase the overall load capacity. Double rigging rings can put a LARGE load on them and that load should honestly be distributed to multiple anchor points whenever possible. If you only have a single anchor point, I still suggest doubling up the soft shackle when double rigging. This makes it possible to keep a 2:1 minimum FoS when dealing with an ~10k winch.

If you have any other questions, please let me know.

Is it anodized?
 

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