Removing rear seats to increase payload capacity?

[jadmt]

Actually, I knew someone who had a non-dot compliant truck (grey) and hit and killed an occupant of another vehicle. He's serving a good deal of his future life in prison. The information provided by the engineers who designed these trucks are there because they have been tested. They are not a suggestion. If you overload a truck and then have a catastrophic event, for certain the insurance company can deny to pay your claim. That was my point.

would he be serving time if he was in a DOT compliant truck? Can it be proven that the only reason he killed someone was the non complaint truck? Was it his driving or the truck that caused the death? serious question.

I am not condoning violating any DOT standards etc. Buddy and I were witnessed a motorcyclist get killed because some dufos was pulling an over loaded trailer full of pavers and the axle broke sending the wheel into a volvo which knocked the front tire of the Volvo off which caused the volvo to cross over into on coming traffic and take the woman riding the bike out head on. Very tragic.

 

[billiebob]

Insurance companies cannot find criminal negligence. They can only sue in a civil court or deem you financially responsible - the implications of who pays for what (or not) are then decided from there.

The government is the only entity capable of finding criminal anything.

In a major accident with injury or death, the government, Police, DOT, MOT whatever will be involved. If you are grossly over weight and they find this thread they will crucify you. Jail time or not the civil lawsuit could easily exceed your coverage and leave you millions of dollars in debt. Threads like these prove you were deliberately over weight.

 

[plh]

In a major accident with injury or death, the government, Police, DOT, MOT whatever will be involved. If you are grossly over weight and they find this thread they will crucify you. Jail time or not the civil lawsuit could easily exceed your coverage and leave you millions of dollars in debt. Threads like these prove you were deliberately over weight.

That never ending digital footprint :-(

 

[Porkchopexpress]

If you are so worried about your load that you are measuring the risk of liability, shouldn't you be more concerned about the possibility of killing someone? It does seem a bit like premeditated negligence.

 

[tacollie]

Actually, I knew someone who had a non-dot compliant truck (grey) and hit and killed an occupant of another vehicle. He's serving a good deal of his future life in prison. The information provided by the engineers who designed these trucks are there because they have been tested. They are not a suggestion. If you overload a truck and then have a catastrophic event, for certain the insurance company can deny to pay your claim. That was my point.

Was it a commercial vehicle? Commercial is a completely different scenario than a passenger vehicle. Commercial has more serious consequence.

@billiebob brings a good point. You may not face criminal charges for being overweight may get you civil charges which could be 6 or 7 figures if people are injured.

 

[rruff]

The information provided by the engineers who designed these trucks are there because they have been tested. They are not a suggestion.

The details of the case you are citing would be interesting.

Whatever the law is (and it appears to be unenforced, or at least never checked for non-commercial vehicles), weight is only one small factor, and has little to do with actual safety. The way that weight is carried is more important for safety, as well as the suspension and tires. It is very possible to make a truck that is much safer on the road with a weight that is 20% over GVWR, vs one that is under but poorly loaded. You'd also have to be pretty stupid in order for that overloaded pickup to be as poor in maneuverability and stopping as all the big trucks, RVs, and trucks pulling large trailers.

It would be nice if the law had some set quantifiable safety standards (like stopping, cornering) that were required.

 

[rruff]

If you are so worried about your load that you are measuring the risk of liability, shouldn't you be more concerned about the possibility of killing someone? It does seem a bit like premeditated negligence.

The most dangerous vehicles to others are the large ones, and those pulling trailers. They handle like crap, take longer to stop, and superior mass tends to "win" in a collision.

 

[stevo_pct]

I think the information regarding insurance liability, criminal negligence, etc. given above is not correct. I have a call into my insurance company right now. I will let you all know what they come back with. He is checking with the underwriting team now, but he said he has never heard anything regarding liability in an accident involving an overweight vehicle. Keep in mind we are talking about private parties here. The law is different for commercial vehicles.

Stay tuned...

 

[stevo_pct]

Just heard back. The insurance company considers anything less than 10,000 # to be a non-commercial vehicle. They said there is nothing specific regarding the weight of the vehicle (or being over weight) and liability or lack of coverage for non-commercial vehicles in the event of an accident.

With that said, I think it's fine to continue this discussion from the perspective of safety and mechanical performance, and eliminate the arguments from the perspective of accident liability. For example, if a half ton truck has a GVWR of 7000#, and with a pop-up camper plus passengers and gear, you end up at 7500#, will upgrading to load E tires and adding air bags (or some other suspension upgrade) be enough for the truck to handle well and drive safely? Are there other mechanical problems or damage to the truck that would be of concern? That's what I'm trying to figure out. Of course a one ton truck would handle that weight better, but what if someone already has a half ton truck and wants to keep that truck as their daily driver and also to carry a camper?

Everything I have been told by camper manufacturers, vehicle outfitters, and folks I have talked to who are carrying pop-up campers on half ton trucks say that, with air bags and E rated tires, the truck will be more than capable of handling the load.

Of course if you do something really stupid, like load up your half ton truck to 12,000 pounds it's a different story. But we are talking about being a few hundred pounds over GVWR.

 

[nickw]

Just heard back. The insurance company considers anything less than 10,000 # to be a non-commercial vehicle. They said there is nothing specific regarding the weight of the vehicle (or being over weight) and liability or lack of coverage for non-commercial vehicles in the event of an accident.

With that said, I think it's fine to continue this discussion from the perspective of safety and mechanical performance, and eliminate the arguments from the perspective of accident liability. For example, if a half ton truck has a GVWR of 7000#, and with a pop-up camper plus passengers and gear, you end up at 7500#, will upgrading to load E tires and adding air bags (or some other suspension upgrade) be enough for the truck to handle well and drive safely? Are there other mechanical problems or damage to the truck that would be of concern? That's what I'm trying to figure out. Of course a one ton truck would handle that weight better, but what if someone already has a half ton truck and wants to keep that truck as their daily driver and also to carry a camper?

Everything I have been told by camper manufacturers, vehicle outfitters, and folks I have talked to who are carrying pop-up campers on half ton trucks say that, with air bags and E rated tires, the truck will be more than capable of handling the load.

Of course if you do something really stupid, like load up your half ton truck to 12,000 pounds it's a different story. But we are talking about being a few hundred pounds over GVWR.

Depends on the environment and use case - long downhills at GVWR or above may smoke your brakes in no time I think you'd probably be fine cruising around on flat ground to KOA's but in a proper expedition environment, you'd be taxing the rig. I'd say for proper offroad/expo use you should have additional capacity (aka UNDER GVWR) for picking up spare fuel, people, gear and/or using the rig in an extreme environment.

Tires and sus as you point out are pieces of the equation....but so are brakes (an important one) along with running gear, trans, tcase and axles.

I wouldn't trust a rig 500 lbs over GVWR in an emergency braking or swerve situation.....

 

[rruff]

For example, if a half ton truck has a GVWR of 7000#, and with a pop-up camper plus passengers and gear, you end up at 7500#, will upgrading to load E tires and adding air bags (or some other suspension upgrade) be enough for the truck to handle well and drive safely?

Almost always. A lot of people add better shocks and a rear swaybar as well. It's also good to stay under the axle ratings.

People usually get into "overweight" durability trouble by driving too fast over rough/demanding terrain. Slamming down on the bumpstops can put several times the static load on components. Components are usually designed to a failure rate, and this is based more on experience than analysis/modeling. The manufacturer knows that x% of users will abuse their trucks to the point where they break. They want that % small to keep warranty and liability claims in check, but if it's too small that isn't ideal either, since they can probably cut some weight and expense.

 

[bkg]

Just heard back. The insurance company considers anything less than 10,000 # to be a non-commercial vehicle. They said there is nothing specific regarding the weight of the vehicle (or being over weight) and liability or lack of coverage for non-commercial vehicles in the event of an accident.

With that said, I think it's fine to continue this discussion from the perspective of safety and mechanical performance, and eliminate the arguments from the perspective of accident liability. For example, if a half ton truck has a GVWR of 7000#, and with a pop-up camper plus passengers and gear, you end up at 7500#, will upgrading to load E tires and adding air bags (or some other suspension upgrade) be enough for the truck to handle well and drive safely? Are there other mechanical problems or damage to the truck that would be of concern? That's what I'm trying to figure out. Of course a one ton truck would handle that weight better, but what if someone already has a half ton truck and wants to keep that truck as their daily driver and also to carry a camper?

Everything I have been told by camper manufacturers, vehicle outfitters, and folks I have talked to who are carrying pop-up campers on half ton trucks say that, with air bags and E rated tires, the truck will be more than capable of handling the load.

Of course if you do something really stupid, like load up your half ton truck to 12,000 pounds it's a different story. But we are talking about being a few hundred pounds over GVWR.

specific to your insurance company or are they referring to an industry standard? I'd be wary of assuming all companies are 100% the same... mostly out of paranoia

 

[rruff]

I wouldn't trust a rig 500 lbs over GVWR in an emergency braking or swerve situation.....

The worst case for braking performance would be proportional to weight I think. That's only if your brakes aren't strong enough to lock up. Even then you are a long way from the ~2x longer braking distance that big RVs and trucks have.

And handling... if you upgraded the shocks, springs, and tires and added a swaybar... you are *way* ahead of the 500lb lighter rig that is still in stock trim.

 

[phsycle]

With that said, I think it's fine to continue this discussion from the perspective of safety and mechanical performance, and eliminate the arguments from the perspective of accident liability.

Why? Because an (unnamed) insurance company said so? And what they said didn’t really rule out the weight being a factor. They only they said was that there was nothing specific in regards to it, but would you think an insurance company would bring this up if it goes to court? If it helps them win, they’ll do anything.

 

[jadmt]

Why? Because an (unnamed) insurance company said so? And what they said didn’t really rule out the weight being a factor. They only they said was that there was nothing specific in regards to it, but would you think an insurance company would bring this up if it goes to court? If it helps them win, they’ll do anything.

Yup