Risks of buying a new Grenadier

ArcticJeep

New member
Based on the review and specifications that I am seeing, The Grenadier seems primarily to be a mashup of common proven components, from other manufacturers.

If INEOS Automotive has a "failure to launch" and shuts down after a couple of years, is there truly a major risk to the consumers who have taken delivery?

Beyond body panels/collision issues, I don't see much in terms of major long term parts availability risks. More difficult than Toyota, or MB? Sure.

Am I looking through rose-colored glasses?
 

ArcticJeep

New member
Rose coloured glasses for sure.

The owner a billionaire has zero manufacturing experience. He made money mixing chemicals and making vaccines. For the past 10 years in a mid life crisis he has spent billions doing mid life crisis things like buying football clubs and going sailing.... Americas Cup style... but all those things are short term, I worry his 4WD thing might also be a short term distraction.

I am sure the Grenadier is an awesome truck just like the sailboat.


I do agree that it may be a short term proposition, which is the root of the question. But at the end of the day, the car was designed and built by Magna-Steyr, which DOES have decades of manufacturing experience (G-Wagen andmany others) and they utilize components from other major brands. BMW, Bosch, Carraro, Brembo, etc.

I am not asking as much about the viability of Ineos Automotive, but how reasonable it will be to source parts in the mid to long term.
 

DirtWhiskey

Western Dirt Rat
Huge risk of obsolescence. Not that that really bothers me as I have a number of wierd vehicles. But you have to be prepared to wait for weeks (months?) for replacement anything. Not just major components. But little things like door handles and trim pieces? As Billibob mention, glass? And lack of ANY garage that will know how to even start repairing it. Are YOU going to "wrench" on it? What about software glitches and recalls? Will it have a full service manual? Do we even know if it will be OBD2? If it is will it have a profile on any ELM32 app like Car Scanner? Will it have specs for the emissions inspections for the donkey garage down the road to look up? Startups are great. But car startups? Wait until (if) 3rd or 4th gen is a thing. And have a very big wallet and lots of patience.
 

ChasingOurTrunks

Well-known member
Huge risk of obsolescence. Not that that really bothers me as I have a number of wierd vehicles. But you have to be prepared to wait for weeks (months?) for replacement anything. Not just major components. But little things like door handles and trim pieces? As Billibob mention, glass? And lack of ANY garage that will know how to even start repairing it. Are YOU going to "wrench" on it? What about software glitches and recalls? Will it have a full service manual? Do we even know if it will be OBD2? If it is will it have a profile on any ELM32 app like Car Scanner? Will it have specs for the emissions inspections for the donkey garage down the road to look up? Startups are great. But car startups? Wait until (if) 3rd or 4th gen is a thing. And have a very big wallet and lots of patience.

Glass = flat and designed to be replaced at any tractor shop that can cut glass. Way more easily replaceable than most modern 4x4s with the exception of the Wrangler which uses the same design or the same reason (at least originally; these days the reason is more likely about staying true to an aesthetic)
Repair = Factory Service Manual is digital and (will be) online, freely available to owners and private shops. This includes a 3-D CAD-It model that actually walks through the repair steps. They are partnering with Bosch service centres which have a robust network worldwide, and are targeting this vehicle to be repairable by even the shadiest of shade-tree mechanics in the middle of the bush with bailing wire, chewing gum, and some cuss words.
OBD2 = Yes, because that's required to sell a vehicle in most of the developed world, and this vehicle is being sold world wide.
Profile = Unlikely to be necessary, because the vehicle is supposed to have the minimum technology necessary to be legal for sale so generic codes are probably fine (For instance my motorbike is OBDII, does not have a profile, but the generic codes always read fine on the 4 different code readers I've used; Gren is likely to be the same)
Software glitches and Recalls = No idea on mechanical recalls, but the design of this vehicle means "software glitch" is more likely to be a "turn it off and back on again" solution that won't leave you stranded, as opposed to a bad sensor on the third manifold from the right that measures microounces of bat guano in the exhaust is somehow so critical it triggers a limp home mode. TBD if they've achieved this but it looks promising so far, and so this may be less of a concern than it would be with other new vehicles.
Emissions specs = Yes, part of the repair manual and necessary for the "global platform" approach that Ineos has taken (i.e. it's the same rig in Canberra as it is in California).

Still more detail to come, but I've been following this project pretty closely - press releases, protoype tour events, live streams, etc. and the challenge with all the details of this vehicle is that they've answered a lot of things in a lot of different places -- so many that it's hard to find specific answers when seeking them sometimes!

As for the OP's question regarding parts availability, there's sort of two dimensions there: The first is, how easy will it be to conveniently pay someone else to fix your Grenadier? And the answer is "it depends on how many they sell". The second dimension is "How easy will it be for a determined individual to fix the Grenadier" -- the kind of person who is willing to weld up a U-Joint of a pair of 12V batteries with some jumper cables is likely to be very happy with the reparability of this vehicle relative to what else is available new on the market. For that category of person, I think fixing the Grenadier 10 years from now will be no problem. For example, I'm planning on getting one (though I may have to wait - life has had some curveballs for me) and I've already got a plan on what I intend to do if/when the B58 becomes more trouble than it's worth because an engine swap in a vehicle like this makes sense to me. I wouldn't do that in my current truck or a typical daily driver vehicle. I think for folks like me, who do see this vehicle as something different than what else is available, the Gren should be pretty maintainable and serviceable and able to go the distance because of the philosophy behind the design - robust, user serviceability, as simple as they can make it -- which Ineos appears to have largely delivered on.
 

86scotty

Cynic
Glass = flat and designed to be replaced at any tractor shop that can cut glass. Way more easily replaceable than most modern 4x4s with the exception of the Wrangler which uses the same design or the same reason (at least originally; these days the reason is more likely about staying true to an aesthetic)
Repair = Factory Service Manual is digital and (will be) online, freely available to owners and private shops. This includes a 3-D CAD-It model that actually walks through the repair steps. They are partnering with Bosch service centres which have a robust network worldwide, and are targeting this vehicle to be repairable by even the shadiest of shade-tree mechanics in the middle of the bush with bailing wire, chewing gum, and some cuss words.
OBD2 = Yes, because that's required to sell a vehicle in most of the developed world, and this vehicle is being sold world wide.
Profile = Unlikely to be necessary, because the vehicle is supposed to have the minimum technology necessary to be legal for sale so generic codes are probably fine (For instance my motorbike is OBDII, does not have a profile, but the generic codes always read fine on the 4 different code readers I've used; Gren is likely to be the same)
Software glitches and Recalls = No idea on mechanical recalls, but the design of this vehicle means "software glitch" is more likely to be a "turn it off and back on again" solution that won't leave you stranded, as opposed to a bad sensor on the third manifold from the right that measures microounces of bat guano in the exhaust is somehow so critical it triggers a limp home mode. TBD if they've achieved this but it looks promising so far, and so this may be less of a concern than it would be with other new vehicles.
Emissions specs = Yes, part of the repair manual and necessary for the "global platform" approach that Ineos has taken (i.e. it's the same rig in Canberra as it is in California).

Still more detail to come, but I've been following this project pretty closely - press releases, protoype tour events, live streams, etc. and the challenge with all the details of this vehicle is that they've answered a lot of things in a lot of different places -- so many that it's hard to find specific answers when seeking them sometimes!

I agree, you have more energy than me. If people wanted to do their own research instead of poo-pooing on Ineos they would know this stuff. :cool:
 

Rovertrader

Supporting Sponsor
Maybe a little different perspective.
So, how easy is it to restore/keep running a 25 year old Suburban? Pretty easy, next to no electronics, huge manufacturer for 100+ years, and huge aftermarket supply.
How about a 60’s Studebaker or even an 80’s International Scout? Still doable, but better be creative on your problem solving.
Now, a single model from a new manufacturer, hummmm…..
I’m an old fart, and was on the Grenadier band wagon as a replacement for my Land Rovers. However, as prices crept (we knew they would, but to what extent) and electronics (most proprietary) expanded, my comfort level weaned.
My solution- base model Bronco with Squash package. So far loving it (2.3/7-speed) and likely will finally start liquidation of my vehicles. New and under warranty, I drive minimal miles these days, so if I get 20 years, I’ll be 90, and likely still not having to wrench on it!! Just drive, service and enjoy- Ford dealer on every corner…
Not trying to derail the thread in any way, but with age comes new perspectives ;-)
 

DirtWhiskey

Western Dirt Rat
I agree, you have more energy than me. If people wanted to do their own research instead of poo-pooing on Ineos they would know this stuff. :cool:

All great points and thanks for the edification. But I'll believe the whole "ducttape and chewing gum" repair thing once they make it through DOT and EPA/CARB. The BMW engine alone probably has dozens of sensors, and was one of the things that lost me. Chevy LS would have been a much better path in North America. Is the OS going to be Ubuntu or open sourced so that it can be hacked and maintained if Ineos doesn't exist before the warranty expires? I'm telling you one off car companies have not fared we'll historically. So I'm personally out for a half decade or so. YMMV of course. BUT I'd love a test drive when you get yours! ??
 

86scotty

Cynic
All good. I'm not in the market but a friend of mine who is an automotive engineer put his money down early. I've gotten interested in it from talking to him. He isn't wealthy and doesn't buy every new vehicle that comes to market. He has some concerns but not many. Modern cars, even startups, are a lot better risk than they used to be. I am not saying this translates to overall reliability. No one can say that yet. I just mean it likely isn't a Yugo.

I agree about an LS but Sir Megabucks is British, A BMW 6 practically is an LS across the pond. They are reliable, tunable and pretty damn tough, and they're everywhere. I've had a bunch of em (BMW straight 6's I mean). Any new engine/vehicle/machine/snack treat/flea collar these days has a ton of sensors and way too many electronics. Nothing will ever be made again that doesn't. All in all this thing is surprisingly simple IMO.

Coming from a lifetime of automotive/mechanical engineering the biggest unknown for him is the axles made by whoever it is that makes them, and that's just because he is unfamiliar with them.
 

SootyCamper

Active member
Without the first gen buyers taking the risk this vehicle will never survive. So we can poo poo all we want about parts availabilities. This vehicle is in the price range of people who can afford a third vehicle in the driveway and if they have to wait a week for a sensor to arrive it's not a huge deal. I'm just happy that Canada is included.

At the end of the day this is the vehicle overlanders have been crying for, and hopefully enough of us will pony up.
 

86scotty

Cynic
Without the first gen buyers taking the risk this vehicle will never survive. So we can poo poo all we want about parts availabilities. This vehicle is in the price range of people who can afford a third vehicle in the driveway and if they have to wait a week for a sensor to arrive it's not a huge deal. I'm just happy that Canada is included.

At the end of the day this is the vehicle overlanders have been crying for, and hopefully enough of us will pony up.

I couldn't agree more. I personally won't be one of them because an SUV just doesn't work for me but I sure have been tempted by how ready for anything it is right out of the box.
 

ChasingOurTrunks

Well-known member
Without the first gen buyers taking the risk this vehicle will never survive. So we can poo poo all we want about parts availabilities. This vehicle is in the price range of people who can afford a third vehicle in the driveway and if they have to wait a week for a sensor to arrive it's not a huge deal. I'm just happy that Canada is included.

At the end of the day this is the vehicle overlanders have been crying for, and hopefully enough of us will pony up.

I mostly agree with you but I don't think this vehicle is meant to be a third vehicle. It will be my only vehicle, and that's because it can do a lot of things. And if I am unable to use the vehicle for a week because of a sensor malfunction, then Ineos has failed on their quest regardless of how long it takes the part to arrive. The whole point of it was that it breaks well -- as in, when it breaks, it's' easily fixable to get you home. Translate "driveway" to "bush" in your example, and that's bad news. But otherwise I agree with you - without early adopters this thing won't get traction.

All great points and thanks for the edification. But I'll believe the whole "ducttape and chewing gum" repair thing once they make it through DOT and EPA/CARB. The BMW engine alone probably has dozens of sensors, and was one of the things that lost me. Chevy LS would have been a much better path in North America. Is the OS going to be Ubuntu or open sourced so that it can be hacked and maintained if Ineos doesn't exist before the warranty expires? I'm telling you one off car companies have not fared we'll historically. So I'm personally out for a half decade or so. YMMV of course. BUT I'd love a test drive when you get yours! ??

I agree with you in that we don't really know how complex this particular engine is/will be in terms of stuff that can go wrong, but I'm optimistic; when Triumph came out with the Tiger, they used the very-much performance and street bike oriented 3 cylinder motor in it. When that motor is in the Speed or Street Triple, I understand it often requires premium fuels and is mapped to rev like mad. But the Tiger - an adventure bike - doesn't need that, and so they simplified and de-tuned it dramatically and it's an incredibly reliable bike that is easy to bush fix (Lived experience - 150k kms on my Tiger and counting, and never had a sensor issue I couldn't fix by simply bypassing the sensor with a bit of a snip, some chapstick (Dielectric grease in a tube!), and some electrical tape, so that the bike still runs to get me home for the longer term repair.

And candidly, sometimes I've not done the longer term repair - never bothered to fix a couple of sensors as my bush fix has held up fine.

So, I'm optimistic that the BMW-motor-in-the-Gren will be more akin to the Triple in the Tiger and not like sticking a Jaguar V12 into a Defender. But we will have to wait and see for a few years before we know for sure!
 

nickw

Adventurer
Based on the review and specifications that I am seeing, The Grenadier seems primarily to be a mashup of common proven components, from other manufacturers.

If INEOS Automotive has a "failure to launch" and shuts down after a couple of years, is there truly a major risk to the consumers who have taken delivery?

Beyond body panels/collision issues, I don't see much in terms of major long term parts availability risks. More difficult than Toyota, or MB? Sure.

Am I looking through rose-colored glasses?
Biggest risk is them shutting down if that happens, yes, huge PITA to deal with, I don't see how it won't be. It's not so much any one part but all the interconnecting parts, there is no one stop shop for 'everything' you'll be on your own to source stuff from many different vendors....all those vendors seem legit, but there may be some unique tweaks that only work on a Gren along with the paint of having to procure it.

Current car manuf generally have what, 10 year parts availability, I'd be very concerned about the Gren is this regard.
 

nickw

Adventurer
I can't figure out why EP started a sub forum on the Grenadier, and nothing for the Bronco!
I've seen hundreds of Bronco's, probably never gonna see a single Grenadier.
I thought it was a bit strange too - seems like there is some sort of connection between EP and Inneos....bit silly if you ask me. Outside of payload capacity, which is a big deal to a few, I don't see much the Gren does better than a Bronco...
 

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