ruffled feathers

[SeaRubi]

wow - 3 pages of replies! Good stuff - I'll toss on a few more ramblings and then shuddup.

* diversity may be the spice of life, but adversity makes it worth living. I would not, in a million years, take back any one experience of a trail repair or extended recovery, or more importantly, the bond of friendship between the folks involved in working towards a common goal to surmount adversity.

* manufacturers "build" automobiles. There are some notable exceptions, but what we do primarily as amateurs and hobbyists is to bolt on expensive parts and continually make second guesses citing terms like "wisdom" in reference to engineering problems. Endeavor to take upon yourself alone the work of a factory and countless people and we each come to understand these differences on our own terms.

* What we spend money on for function always has its roots in vanity and aesthetics. These properties ultimately equate to pride. Woe to he who vows to strip and remove all chrome and shiny surface for he is the fiercest believer in his own vanity.

* There is no criticism, regardless of delivery, that will not test a man's commitment to pride at the cost of sincerity. The results of this test gives us an insight into their true character. Remember that we're all human and that character, by virtue of being ideologically pure, is in itself a flawed concept.

* Our psyches are much more highly tuned to take notice of the slightest bit of malice in disagreement. There is a reason for this. Disagreement without passion presents no danger of being discussed.

* Ask anyone about their choices and you'll get a long list of reasons that matter mostly only to them. A person that doesn't respect the choice of others holds no respect for his own. A man with a short list of reasons for anything is also a dangerous man.

* I think it's better to speak your mind honestly and enjoy the fireworks :ylsmoke: If I am being an *** I try to point it out. I accept who I am and I don't plan to change much.

* yes(!), Brady "for teh win" in terms of conspicuous spending :exclaim: :xxrotflma

beers for everybody - and see you on the dirt. :truck:

 

[Hilldweller]

Nice. :iagree:

Man; I thought I could talk pretty.

 

[kellymoe]

Boy, I thought Land Rover owners were the only ones who were this passionate

 

[FROADER]

I apologize to the group here for ruffling everybody's feathers. I said as much to Don in his thread so I didn't feel I needed to fling more around over there.

I'm not as active on this site as I am others, but I was truly bummed to read your reply to his original post. As others have said, this site usually stays away from the "My dad can beat up your dad" mentality. I come from a mix of desert running, rock crawling and expedition off-road backgrounds and here is my take on the poop, that was your post. Besides the fact that it was the first reply of a thread I was looking forward to reading, it also took away from his build thread. There is now 2 pages of BS and only the first post has anything to do with the topic. I don't think you would like to have started a 'build' thread of your stock truck and have the first reply be someone saying "Hey guess what, you're an ************." for no reason. Just sayin'...

This was the original post.

Into an expedition vehicle for long tips of several months and still be able to run Moab trails. Albeit I looked hard at the JK's I decided to stay in the TJ line for several reasons. Existing components such as Dynatrac ProRock HP 60's F/R that would have to be heavliy modifided to fit a JK. Same goes for many other parts that are currently on my '03 Jeep Rubicon.

Sat I flew to Denver and picked up a box stock Jeep Rubicon Unlimited and then swung by Moab on the way home to Scottsdale.

[Note: In its OEM box stock form it will run Moab Rim and Behind the rocks trails. Pics on the website of Moab Rim trail, below]

It all begins here: http://www.savagesun4x4.com/enter/conversion_build_jeep_rubic/

I will post over the ensuing months progress reports...

The part that bothered me in your reply:

Instead of all that time, money, and effort spent on modifying a rig to kingdom come - why not take 1/4 of that pool and take more trips? Sorry to rant - it jus seems like so many folks want to get a truck just for the sake of carving it up. The things do just fine bone stock. Pull the top, fill 'er up and beat it like a red headed stepchild.

________________________________________________________________

It's not about the investment I have an issue with - who knows how much I've spent on this as a hobby and on how many different trucks. It's just the attitude that you need a monster drivetrain in your rig to hit the dirt that irritates me, personally, and I'm sorry to let it get under my skin and take it out on Don's build thread.

It's great that you apologize, but had you really read and understood his post, this all could have been avoided IMO. He had existing parts that would bolt up to his new rig. Plain and simple.

These parts happen to come from a purpose built rig that enabled him to go places, conquer obstacles, not break and make it home safely afterwards. If he has these parts and they can be easily swapped to his current rig, should it matter that he wants to use them for expedition type wheeling now? I don't think so. It shouldn't matter if he wanted to use a '62 VW Karmanghia as an expedition rig, it's his build.



(Mods/Admin) For the readers that are interested in his [Don's] build, could we get his original post to be pasted as a new thread (or the old one cleaned up), so there isn't all of that BS in it.

 

[madizell]

SeaRubi -

Sounds like you spend a lot of time reading Bartlett's.

I have to disagree with some of your statements, at least to the degree that they are offered as absolutes. For example:

"* What we spend money on for function always has its roots in vanity and aesthetics. These properties ultimately equate to pride. Woe to he who vows to strip and remove all chrome and shiny surface for he is the fiercest believer in his own vanity."

This may be true for you, and may be true in your experience, but is not a true statement as an absolute. It is, rather, a glittering generality if not complete nonsense. The value of a glittering generality is generally in the glitter. It sounds pretty, but isn't necessarily true. Modifications are made for all kinds of reasons. When I put a rag top on my old Jeep it is not because I fear people will laugh at me if I don't, but because I don't want to get wet when it rains, and don't want the dogs to jump out of the car when they go for a ride. Where is the vanity in that?

Another example:

"...what we do primarily as amateurs and hobbyists is to bolt on expensive parts and continually make second guesses citing terms like "wisdom" in reference to engineering problems."

Again, perhaps true for you, but not universally true. Many of "us hobbyists" make our own parts, modify those we have, or do our best with the parts that came on the car. Also, automotive design and theory is something you can learn in school, or as Abe Lincoln did it, learn it yourself by doing a lot of reading and studying. Professionals do not hold all the cards. Manufacturers do not always share the same design paradigm with enthusiasts, making it necessary for us to redesign our rides. As enthusiasts, we build to our own standards, using our own money and skills, and using the same principles and theories that professional engineers use, but without the constraints of marketing and cost analysis attendant to mass automobile manufacturing. Doing so does not make an idiot out of the enthusiast, nor does it debase the "wisdom" of the enthusiast's choices that he is not an engineering professional or that he has different ideas of how something should be executed. Your use of the work "we" in describing "amateurs and hobbyists" is, I fear, too broad.

There is one thing you say that I do agree with:

"A person that doesn't respect the choice of others holds no respect for his own."

Wasn't it your own intolerance for one person's choices that started this whole discussion? Why not put it to rest? Even though this string begins as an apology, it is nevertheless a defensive one. Anyway, I think the whole line of discussion belongs under general chat, not Jeep-specific modifications.

 

[Martyn]

Bartlett's has some great quotes on ego.

 

[Brian McVickers]

Boy, I thought Land Rover owners were the only ones who were this passionate

HEY, What did you just say about my Land Rover!
Watchit Fella....

:sombrero: :safari-rig:

 

[SeaRubi]

I have to say - there's alot more drama here than I really counted on :lurk: It's just a cheap bet, but I'd venture to say we're all pretty bored at work or home and this is more exciting.

SeaRubi -
Sounds like you spend a lot of time reading Bartlett's.

Who's Bartlett? never heard of 'em. What's Bartlett written that you'd like to share?

"* What we spend money on for function always has its roots in vanity and aesthetics. These properties ultimately equate to pride. Woe to he who vows to strip and remove all chrome and shiny surface for he is the fiercest believer in his own vanity."

This may be true for you, and may be true in your experience, but is not a true statement as an absolute. It is, rather, a glittering generality if not complete nonsense. The value of a glittering generality is generally in the glitter. It sounds pretty, but isn't necessarily true.

I offer "ramblings" and you equate that to absolutes. ?? I will defend this position, however. People can argue until they are blue in the face that they're the most logical person on the planet, and would never consider doing anything without a careful analysis of all the pros and cons of each requirement for what they want to do.

I say baloney. And the more passionate the argument, the more baloney it is.

Another example:

"...what we do primarily as amateurs and hobbyists is to bolt on expensive parts and continually make second guesses citing terms like "wisdom" in reference to engineering problems."

Again, perhaps true for you, but not universally true. Many of "us hobbyists" make our own parts, modify those we have, or do our best with the parts that came on the car. Also, automotive design and theory is something you can learn in school, or as Abe Lincoln did it, learn it yourself by doing a lot of reading and studying. Professionals do not hold all the cards.

Do you get paid to modify or prepare other people's cars? do you retail parts of your own design? Or entire cars? If not, you're clearly an amateur or a hobbyist. You might *think* you follow a similar process, and you might *think* you're designing a part. Did you just incite Abe Lincoln? Why do all the factory trained mechanics I know detest working on a hobby rig?

Manufacturers do not always share the same design paradigm with enthusiasts, making it necessary for us to redesign our rides. As enthusiasts, we build to our own standards, using our own money and skills,...

Agree.

and using the same principles and theories that professional engineers use, but without the constraints of marketing and cost analysis attendant to mass automobile manufacturing.

BS - pure and simple. That's even more arrogant than something I'd write :ylsmoke: I have several friends who are professional engineers and are also automotive enthusiasts. They're usually the first to point out to me that their discipline doesn't have much to do with designing car parts. Just trying to curb a bunch of backlash about regression analysis and pretty CAD pictures.

There is one thing you say that I do agree with:

"A person that doesn't respect the choice of others holds no respect for his own."

Wasn't it your own intolerance for one person's choices that started this whole discussion? "

Yep. Hey, I pointed out my flaws. I really, really miss my Rangie and all the other freaks, geeks, and drama queens that call themselves an LRO, proud to own one of the beasts :smiley_drive: The more I own a Jeep the more I realize I have less in common with most Jeep drivers. Seems like such a stupid statement ... but it's becoming reality!

Even though this string begins as an apology, it is nevertheless a defensive one. Anyway, I think the whole line of discussion belongs under general chat, not Jeep-specific modifications.

The thread was for the jeepers here on the board that had their feathers ruffled in the other thread, not the unsuspecting victims in Fireside. I made 3 posts in Don's thread, total; there's an awful lot of "bs" in there that ain't mine, fer sure. I kept seeing replies after mine and tried to curb it with the 3rd post, which didn't seem to help, so I created this one to bleed it off of Don's.


How many people in that thread felt empowered to vindicate Don's own reply, after he made it, from the position of their own sense of judicial duty? Some of you guys are a bunch of drama queens. Let's give each other a break and settle this over more e-pints, mmmK? :beer: :beer:

 

[goodtimes]

 

[robert j. yates]

How many people in that thread felt empowered to vindicate Don's own reply, after he made it, from the position of their own sense of judicial duty? Some of you guys are a bunch of drama queens. Let's give each other a break and settle this over more e-pints, mmmK? :beer: :beer:

You just keep stirring the pot while claiming "why can't we all get along"
........to funny

 

[SeaRubi]

"The part that bothered me in your reply:
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaRubi
Instead of all that time, money, and effort spent on modifying a rig to kingdom come - why not take 1/4 of that pool and take more trips? Sorry to rant - it just seems like so many folks want to get a truck just for the sake of carving it up. The things do just fine bone stock. Pull the top, fill 'er up and beat it like a red headed stepchild.
"

What's wrong with that? Are we all here just to pat each other on the back and make each other feel good? Who cares what I think. I expressed a couple of opinions for Don's sake and let my irritation with the big-tire / rescue / rubi axles are weak comments of his get the better of me.

D44 axles on 35's work pretty well ... or I was hallucinating those trips I took out with my friend in his '05. There's a whole bunch of stuff that's relative - I think most folks are smart enough to realize that.

:beer:

 

[MuddyMudskipper]

I'll toss on a few more ramblings and then shuddup.

Liar, liar pants on fire. :hehe: :hehe:

 

[robert j. yates]

You apparently don't see the math....he already owns the axles which cost him a significant chunk of change (go ahead, call Dynatrack and see what a matching set of ProRock 60's cost). Given the market for used parts, he would receive just a fraction of that investment back if he were to sell them. What part of "not financially prudent" do you not get about selling the axles?

Also.....given that the axles are already set up for a TJ, I hardly think "carving up a rig" as you put it is an accurant description.....or even applies. I suspect that they are about as bolt on as you can get given Dynatracks proven quality.

Personally, I think you have absolutely no experience in dealing with aftermarket parts of this magnitude and have been summarily pants'd here by some of the more knowledgable folks and are thus, just a wee bit to defensive.

I agree with Froader....your posts out to be scrapped out of the original thread. You might also want to stop trying to get the last word in

 

[Superu]

:smilies27 The only thing missing from this whole drama is a few expletives to make it perfect for the usual suspects over at NASIOC!

I'm heading back to read up on some trip reports! :wavey:

 

[JeepinBear]

You apparently don't see the math....he already owns the axles which cost him a significant chunk of change (go ahead, call Dynatrack and see what a matching set of ProRock 60's cost). Given the market for used parts, he would receive just a fraction of that investment back if he were to sell them. What part of "not financially prudent" do you not get about selling the axles?

Ah...come on guys. He's a smart guy, he gets it.

He's admitted at least a couple of times that he "likes giving people a hard time". I think at this point he's getting off on the drama he's created and is enjoying watching the reply and view counts climb.


Add 1 more to his list.