Setting a Range Rover Classic up for expedition travel

TeriAnn

Explorer
I have been asked to put together a web page about choosing a Land Rover as a platform for extended expedition style travel. This is for the Expo site and. I will freely admit to a lack of hands on experience with the newer coiler models. So I am asking your advice. Replies should be general enough to cover all the Range Rover Classic markets and not just a single country market.

1. What are the primary problem areas to look for when looking to purchase a used Range Rover Classic?

2. What basic mods would be helpful for long term reliability for long range expedition type travel? Not building a gonzo rock crawler, just a reliable cross country off road traveler. Please no responses suggesting switching to parts from another marque.

It is my current understanding that extracts or reworded thoughts from your replies will likely show up on at least one if not two web sites.

Thanks in advance for your help.
 
They tend to have rust issues underneath. The rear seat belt attachment points on the rear wheel arches are a problem spot. The structural sills along the sides (behind the plastic sills) are prone to rust. The rear cross member (well hidden by the rear bumper) is also prone to rust to the point that the tailgate hinges on many trucks start to pull away. The front floors are also trouble spots due to the awesome sound deadening holding moisture like a sponge. The upper tailgates are again prone to rust in the lower corners-but there are cool all aluminum replacements. I have removed the frame crossmembers on a couple of trucks where the frame appeared fine only to find gaping holes covered up by the crossmember flanges.

Electrically the coil cartridge in the steering column for the cruise controls always breaks, the seat switches are often troublesome, SRS light is on in a lot of the 95's or the bulb has been pulled. Early models with ABS also had some issues and I've seen several trucks converted to standard master cyl setups.

Up sides:
The seats in the classic are far superior to Disco1 and Defender seats.
Best looking Rover- wanted one as a kid in the 70's
SWB wheel base is nearly perfect for off road.
Lwb is an awsome family size-very functional.
 
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David Harris

Expedition Leader
They tend to have rust issues underneath. The rear seat belt attachment points on the rear wheel arches are a problem spot. The structural sills along the sides (behind the plastic sills) are prone to rust. The rear cross member (well hidden by the rear bumper) is also prone to rust to the point that the tailgate hinges on many trucks start to pull away. The front floors are also trouble spots due to the awesome sound deadening holding moisture like a sponge. The upper tailgates are again prone to rust in the lower corners-but there are cool all aluminum replacements. I have removed the frame crossmembers on a couple of trucks where the frame appeared fine only to find gaping holes covered up by the crossmember flanges.

Electrically the coil cartridge in the steering column for the cruise controls always breaks, the seat switches are often troublesome, SRS light is on in a lot of the 95's or the bulb has been pulled. Early models with ABS also had some issues and I've seen several trucks converted to standard master cyl setups.

Up sides:
The seats in the classic are far superior to Disco1 and Defender seats.
Best looking Rover- wanted one as a kid in the 70's
SWB wheel base is nearly perfect for off road.
Lwb is an awsome family size-very functional.

Nice post! Hit all the high points in short order! Bravo!

David
 
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Red90

Adventurer
How broad are you planning to cover? The RR Classic was built for 26 years. There was a large range of changes over that time.
 

Snagger

Explorer
You need to know about the different models. There are the late LSEs (LWB to the US), which have the obvious advantages of more load space or more leg room in the back (the front seats do not slide further back, so if you're too tall for driving a standard 100" RRC, you'll still be too tall for a 108" LSE unless you modify it), but some parts are hard to find for these rarer vehicles, especiallt rear trim,rear door components/panels and rear prop shafts.

You also need to know about the two door and four door models, knowing how to spot the early, non-factory four door conversions like the Montiverdi - they'd be a nightmare to get parts for.

Rust affects the sills and body rear cross member, as mentioned, though the chassis is normally very good. The front inner wings, head light mounts, rear wheel arches (just inside the rear doors) and boot floor are all bad rust spots. These can all be replaced with Discovery I parts, which seem more readily available, though the corrugated boot floor panel's dimensions are different (normally replaced with two shortened DI panels stitched side by side or with a flat 3mm aluminium panel).

The tail gates are also rust-prone. Aluminium upper tail gates are OK, but they do flex when closing them one-handed, so shutting them can be more difficult if the seal is new. The upper gates are also prone to popping open if the latches are worn or maladjusted.

Engines are important. the V8 came in 3.5 (carb), 3.9, 4.0 and 4.2l versions. The 3.9 and 4.2 are prone to porous blocks, while all V8s suffer worn cam shafts if not maintained scrupulously. they are very sensitive to water or damp in the ignition system. The first factory fitted diesels were the Italian built VM units, first the 2.4 and then the 2.5. I don't know much about them other than that each cylinder has its own independent cylinder head, and that these were prone to problems. I think the 2.5 was an improvement, but I understand that the engines were all costly and unreliable, though very refined for a diesel of the time. The Tdis are relatively bullet-proof, though the 300 has a thinner head than the 200 which can distort if severely overheated. The 300 heads are still available new, but 200s are not. The 300 also has a mild reputation for head gasket failure behind the no.4 piston, blowing out the end of the block, and for the "P gasket" behind the water pump leaking (this requires removal of the whole timing case to replace). the 300 is perhaps a little less robust than the 200, but is much more refined and has a superior crank driven oil pump - I'd go for the 300 every time. the 300's timing belt issue was limited to the very early engines and was rectified under recall. Do not be concerned about this issue - any engine still running can't have been affected by it.

There are several different transmissions. ZF autos are very strong and reliable, but only if given frequent oil changes and filter replacement. many skimp on the filters or don't even know about them (the sump has to be removed to replace them), so failure of the hydraulic selection system is not uncommon. LT77s and R380s are good, but the LT77 (5 gears, reverse forward and left) is prone to main shaft spline wear because the LT230 transfer box input gears weren't cross-drilled. R380s are an improved LT77 (reverse is behind 5th) and doesn't suffer the main shaft problem, though both still wear their 2nd gear baulk rings after about 80,000 miles. The earlier four-speed manual LT85 boxes are tough but a little agricultural. Only the last of the Classics had the Borg Warner chain driven transfer box, which is quiet and strong and has a viscous coupling controlled centre diff. The other ZF and LT77 vehicles have LT230 transfer boxes identical to the Discovery and the same except for gearing as the Defender. Generally robust, watch for jammed high/low and diff-lock selectors.

The axles are standard Rover 2-pin diffs, most with 10 splines but later (early 90's onwards) 24 spline. The later 300 Tdi axles have stronger shafts and CV joints.

Brakes can be simple dual circuit plain discs, but later models have vented front discs, ABS/ETC and power assistance. That late unit is very effective and pretty reliable, but could be expensive to replace if faulty. The ABS works on all four wheels (the warning light should clear on reaching approx 5mph), while the same electronics use an alternative logic and the power booster to apply Electronic Traction control to the rear axle only. That light should extinguish shortly after starting the engine without needing to move off. Brake lines tend to suffer corrosion, especially if used on salted/gritted roads or near the sea.

Steering is basically the same on all models with a "4-bolt" (the number of bolts on the top cover) Adwest PAS steering box. They are prone to output shaft seal or top cover leaks as they age, but can be easily sourced from Discoverys and Defenders. Leaks can render them unserviceable, but they will normally function properly if the reservoir is kept topped up. If PAS failure does occur, the vehicle is still steerable manually.

Head linings are hard to get, but are prone to sagging on all models as the glue holding the fabric to the fibre backing fails. A trim specialist will be able to repair them in most cases.

Wiper units can become noisy as water enters the spindle tube and corrodes the shaft. Greasing may help a tired unit, but if it's already making noise, it will eventually expire.

Soft dash (late '94 and all 95 models) have SRS bags on the steering wheel and on the passenger dash. These are no longer available new, but the steering wheel is the same as used on the late Discovery I, so a replacement can be sourced there. The DI used a grab rail on the passenger side in the RRC's second SRS bag location, but it is possible a DII unit may fit 9though the colour would not match).

Useful upgrades for an expedition vehicle would be 4-pin diffs, stronger shafts and drive flanges, uprated suspension (UK police spec rear springs are great, along with DeCarbon dampers) and a storage system on the load space. Uprated suspension also gets around the problem of failed Boge struts (a self-powered hydraulic ram between the chassis and rear suspension A-frame that self-levels the vehicle regardless of load), which are damned expensive to replace and fail quickly.

Aircon would be useful on Vogue trim specs, but the Vogue SE (which has aircon as standard) suffers from leather seats (impractical as they get scratched and crack and also have troublesome electronic adjustment) and leaky sunroofs (nearly always due to blocked drain tubes which run inside of the head lining and door pillars). The SE and LSE also have Electronic Air Suspension. These were essentially test mules for the system to be introduced for the P38 Range Rover (second generation), and were even more unreliable than the much-maligned P38 system, with compressors burning out, valve blocks jamming, airbags perishing or puncturing, air lines leaking and height sensors being the most unreliable component of all. If to be used for expedition work, an EAS equipped vehicle would benefit from a coil spring retro-fit kit from the likes of Atlantic British, which includes the electronic shunt to fool the EAS' ECU into thinking the system is fitted and functioning so that it doesn't put other ECUs into a "limp home" mode.

Other useful mods for expedition or off road vehicles include removal of the front spoiler, diff guards, heavy duty steering rods, a steering guard (all the same as DI or defender), cross-drilled and spiralled brake discs (like EBC's) and a Southdown fuel tank guard with removable hitches and recovery points, (which attach directly to the tank guard when needed but don't affect departure angle like the standard hitch when not required).
 
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astateofmike

Observer
Snagger, great post as with Dividing Creek.

My thoughts:

For ability to find and swap parts? I'd go with a later 90's (but not 95) SWB. Later models have the access port for the fuel pump, 24 spline axles and the 3.9 engine. The panels are interchangeable with the largest "group" of other RRC's. The Viscous trans case is fine (I know a ton of people who love them) and then a mile 1-2" lift would be fine. ARB and others sell bumpers and lockers are available.

Why not 95? Airbags, soft dash, roof, rear door and seals.....basically, I have to fine one of maybe 4k cars to get that stuff from. I snag it every time I can to save. The 90-94 (US) would have a lot bigger parts pool....

Now, if I were to "modify" it a bit with LR parts, I'd go for the non sunroof roof panel to avoid any failure/leaks. I'd also swap in manual seats from a Hunter or a D1 if thepossible. Oh, and a dog guard/luggage guard. The big one would be the LT230 conversion for the locking diff, but the fact that it is all mechnical (when that VC fails, depending on how far you are out that could be a pain). IF I was really going for simple, the SWB could also have parts with an 87-89 or so SWB without ABS making the brake system as simple as possible.

Oh, the LWB has no more storage room than the SWB if you keep the passenger compartment for passengers. The boot is all the same.....

So, I guess in summary I say most parts, least computers or sensors to fail. Hmm, I really need to finally buy a Series. I still kick myself for not getting Linus's Park Ranger...but 2 kids would have been horrible to it...
 

rover4x4

Adventurer
Rust and lack of maintenance are the only enemies. The Borg Warner is fine and plenty adequate for the majority of users, it would have been fine in the Discos but I am glad it wasnt. IMO a stock coil sprung Range Rover is hard to beat. They all got it right the first time, it could go damn near every where. Some short comings on the early 90's trucks IMO are the 10 spline axles without ABS, they are a bastard child but easily converted to 24 spline ABS parts which are easier to find parts for. The heater core is a ***** as is the fan switch resistor, the entire HVAC system sucks but I personally like the lay out of the dash. I have no experience with air suspension. People get really excited about the 95 classics, they are IMO an electrical disaster, they can be repaired by some but it takes an incredible amount of time and patient. Did I mention rust. These are prone to head issues cracked blocks and worn cams. Any owner that follows the service intervals and doesnt over heat the truck or drive it anywhere but the southwest/east near a beach or the salt would be desirable. All the rest suck and I wouldn't waste time or money on, I know because I have.

The only useful worthwhile modifications to a RRC I would have left mine at, ecode headlights diff guards gas tank skid plate and a coolant temp gauge the rest were a waste of money and detrimental to the ride and longevity of the truck
 

David Harris

Expedition Leader
IMO a stock coil sprung Range Rover is hard to beat. They all got it right the first time, it could go damn near every where. Some short comings on the early 90's trucks IMO are the 10 spline axles without ABS, they are a bastard child but easily converted to 24 spline ABS parts which are easier to find parts for. The heater core is a ***** as is the fan switch resistor, the entire HVAC system sucks but I personally like the lay out of the dash.

Agree wholeheartedly on the stock capability. Before you go out and mod a RRC, drive it a lot off road in different conditions, and you may just change your mind and keep it basically stock with the exception of some skid plates. I was dead sold on Discos until I bought my RRC and just marveled at how the vehicle could go places easier than my stock D1. I think it's the super soft suspension which flexes out so well. No sway bars required ever for stability. And Clarkson got it right on Top Gear Bolivia when he said that while the others in the Samurai and Land Cruiser were getting beat up on the washboards, he was cruising in luxury with his RR. The super smooth ride in rough terrain is a good enough reason for me to leave the suspension stock. I've been beat up for over twenty years with super stiff Jeep suspensions, and my Disco suspension rides like a truck too compared to the Rangie. Worried about load carrying capacity with the soft springs? That's where the Boge leveling strut comes in. I recently loaded mine up with the same gear in the back that makes my stock Disco lose a couple of inches of travel, and the Rangie stayed nice and level, the ride was still plush, no travel lost and the flex was still as before. Genius set-up. People are so quick to throw those Boge's away. I guess if you lift it, I can see why. But I think mostly it is because people don't understand how they work and the advantages of them, plus they are expensive to replace when they wear out. In good condition they can support 1500 lbs., I believe. Mine has the original at 100K and it works fine, though. Besides the 95, the Rangie's are pretty reliable too, outside of the electrics. I love the pre-95 dash too. Lot of character.


The only useful worthwhile modifications to a RRC I would have left mine at, ecode headlights diff guards gas tank skid plate and a coolant temp gauge the rest were a waste of money and detrimental to the ride and longevity of the truck

Great overlanding vehicles without having to do much to them except look to the rust and maintain them scrupulously. In fact, better left alone for the most part . . . I myself think the ideal set-up is the V8 auto with the Borg-Warner and some Tru-tracs front and rear, with no more than 31" tires max. Superbly smooth and capable set-up for just about any conditions.

David
 

Snagger

Explorer
Try to be fair about the 1995 RRCs!

I have one of these, but knew what to look for. Mine is a plain Vogue, not the SE or LSE, so has no seat electrics, no EAS, no sun roof and no troublesome electrically adjusted seats or leather. It also means it lacked the heated front screen, heated front seats and aircon, though the wiring loom is present. The screen and seats were sorted with new switches and a set of seat pads, the windscreen being replaced with the heated version when the original got stone damage. I have the aircon from a 300Tdi Discovery, which shares the same components. So, none of the failure-prone parts except the body rust concern, and a relatively easy retrofit of the few advantages of the more complex SEs and LSEs.
 

rover4x4

Adventurer
Try to be fair about the 1995 RRCs!

I have one of these, but knew what to look for. Mine is a plain Vogue, not the SE or LSE, so has no seat electrics, no EAS, no sun roof and no troublesome electrically adjusted seats or leather. It also means it lacked the heated front screen, heated front seats and aircon, though the wiring loom is present. The screen and seats were sorted with new switches and a set of seat pads, the windscreen being replaced with the heated version when the original got stone damage. I have the aircon from a 300Tdi Discovery, which shares the same components. So, none of the failure-prone parts except the body rust concern, and a relatively easy retrofit of the few advantages of the more complex SEs and LSEs.

We are not lucky enough to have this option
 

James86004

Expedition Leader
The heater core is a ***** as is the fan switch resistor, the entire HVAC system sucks but I personally like the lay out of the dash.

Agreed, the HVAC sucks, which is one of the reasons I would prefer a 95. So I am perplexed by this statement:

People get really excited about the 95 classics, they are IMO an electrical disaster, they can be repaired by some but it takes an incredible amount of time and patient.

The AC in the 87-94 RRC will not keep up with the Arizona desert heat in the summer, and in the winter the heat cooks the driver and freezes the passenger. The 95 has a much better system. The heater hoses on the earlier ones are a nightmare to replace, and dead easy on the 95. The 95 has more electronics than a 94 but save for the air suspension it is really similar to the Disco I.

TeriAnn, for my money, if I were buying a RRC again, I would look for the best example in the rust department, and then an engine that has not blown head gaskets and a transmission that shifts normally. After that you can worry about whether it is a 95 or not. There is a whole mess of other issues that are common problems that you will have to deal with on any example (seat switches, ignition module failures, leaky power steering boxes, BW transfer case mainshaft spline failure).
 

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