ShottsCruisers
Explorer
expeditionswest said:That sounds like an echo
:ar15: Scott
Shotts' 1997 Lexus "Rock Crawler" buildup:
- Thread starter ShottsCruisers
- Start date
:ar15: Scott
goodtimes
Expedition Poseur
John, there are a couple places in Tucon to get your driveshaft balanced. Simmons 4x4, and one other place, I can't recall the name right now. This second place is where Kyle ("rockcrawler" over at Jacks site.....guy with the scrambler...I think you have met him....maybe not) had his driveshaft re-tubed on a saturday morning with no notice. Great service on the shops part. Heck, the guy wasn't even open that day. Kyle happened to call while he was there cleaning up...he did the job anyway. I'll get the info from Kyle later tonight when we do happy hour.
Is the vibration/shudder coming up through the steering column, or somewhere else?
Cristo is right, you should have a beer. These things CAN be fixed, but it can be like trying to find a needle in a haystack, particularly if it is a harmonics issue. Diagnosis is the hardest part. Once you know what the problem is, things are easy.
If you are really at the end of your rope, feel free to join us for happy hour at 6:30 @ chili's on broadway east of Swan. Happy hour always helps.
Is the vibration/shudder coming up through the steering column, or somewhere else?
Cristo is right, you should have a beer. These things CAN be fixed, but it can be like trying to find a needle in a haystack, particularly if it is a harmonics issue. Diagnosis is the hardest part. Once you know what the problem is, things are easy.
If you are really at the end of your rope, feel free to join us for happy hour at 6:30 @ chili's on broadway east of Swan. Happy hour always helps.
ShottsCruisers
Explorer
goodtimes said:
I pick up my U-joints tomorrow and was going to have my mechanic put them in. Do I REALLY have to spend the dough to get it balanced? I was told they are usually fine unless somebody messes things up when swapping them.
The vibration is seen in the side-view mirror (blur) and felt some in the steering wheel andmore in the floor, the dash, the console, etc. That 35-50 BAD spot...the shudder is felt the same too and stronger in the steering wheel.
When I bought this thing it was smooooooooooth.
Enjoy your beer. And thanks. It's Becky's B-day. She's going out.
goodtimes
Expedition Poseur
John, you don't need to re-balance the driveshaft just because you change u-joints....if the shaft was balanced beforehand, it will still be balanced afterwards. But on the other side of the coin, if it wasn't in balance before, it still won't be. So, if you are sure that it is balanced (no weights have been knocked off, it hasn't been rubbed on rocks, etc), I wouldn't re-balance it....
BTW, I believe it was Tucson Driveline that did the work for Kyle. Sorry, no contact info, but they are in the yellow pages.
Your description is typical of a driveline problem. If it was a steering component/alignment, it would be more pronounced in the steering wheel than in the rest of the vehicle. Front driveline vibrations will be more pronounced in the steering than rear driveline problems....something easy and free to check is to rotate your tires, and see if ANYTHING changes (where the vibration is felt, the intensity, when it starts/stops, etc).
It is a good idea to WRITE DOWN all the symptoms, and the conditions under which they happen. 2 or 3 weeks into troubleshooting it is easy to forget if vibration started at 35mph or 40 mph. Having a solid reference point helps. You may change one thing (suspension component, steering component, etc) which has a small effect on the vibration...but if you are not 100% sure of the original condition, you won't be 100% sure if the change is real, or if you just imagined it. This will help you alot as you chase down the problem. Of course you also want to write down what changes are made, and what effects they have had. Don't simply say "nothing changed", take a new piece of paper, drive the lexy, and write down all the symptoms. Then go compare it with the original. Otherwise it is easy for your mind to tell you nothing changed just because the conditions are similar. Even little changes help point you to the problem.....and more information is better.
BTW, I believe it was Tucson Driveline that did the work for Kyle. Sorry, no contact info, but they are in the yellow pages.
Your description is typical of a driveline problem. If it was a steering component/alignment, it would be more pronounced in the steering wheel than in the rest of the vehicle. Front driveline vibrations will be more pronounced in the steering than rear driveline problems....something easy and free to check is to rotate your tires, and see if ANYTHING changes (where the vibration is felt, the intensity, when it starts/stops, etc).
It is a good idea to WRITE DOWN all the symptoms, and the conditions under which they happen. 2 or 3 weeks into troubleshooting it is easy to forget if vibration started at 35mph or 40 mph. Having a solid reference point helps. You may change one thing (suspension component, steering component, etc) which has a small effect on the vibration...but if you are not 100% sure of the original condition, you won't be 100% sure if the change is real, or if you just imagined it. This will help you alot as you chase down the problem. Of course you also want to write down what changes are made, and what effects they have had. Don't simply say "nothing changed", take a new piece of paper, drive the lexy, and write down all the symptoms. Then go compare it with the original. Otherwise it is easy for your mind to tell you nothing changed just because the conditions are similar. Even little changes help point you to the problem.....and more information is better.
Not to bad mouth any shop, but I recently had some problems with Tucson Driveline. I had my front and rear shafts balanced by them to no affect, and they both swore up and down that they could feel no vibrations, but the condition was no better than it was when I went there first. I then tried Fleet Pride as recommended by Tucson Differential, and they did help the vibration by about 80%. So I know where your coming from, don't get discouraged. The diff shop has never seen a truck that they couldn't get vibes out of, that is until they met my truck. I believe that most of my problems are from the front shaft, so I may just convert to manual hubs and be done with it.
Good luck!
ShottsCruisers
Explorer
GeoRoss said:
Yep. I need to remove it and add some glue.
ShottsCruisers
Explorer
Good advice Kevin and Erin. I've been documenting changes over in MUD.
ShottsCruisers
Explorer
UPDATE:
I took the D/C front shaft out of the LX. I'll send that to Slee for inspection.
Meanwhile, we slapped the front stock shaft from our '93 into the LX. The U-joints felt good and consistent though the '93 has 165K on it so some wear to those U-joints must exist. When we drive the '93 every now and then we get some slack.
The test drive of the LX? 95% of the vibration is GONE with the '93 stock shaft in the LX! What's left though is a quick GRRR sound every time you go on and off the gas. Plus, some vibration does exist upon deceleration though it's slight. Also at a few speeds on decel there is some slight GRRR sound.
PLEASE KEEP IN MIND we still have the rear shaft out. It's awaiting another u-joint. Having it in might effect or reduce the current sounds.
MY QUESTION: So how do we end this? My gut? We never needed a D/C front shaft. We lifted the LX and vibration hit. The rear shaft had a bad U-joint. Maybe the front did too though we pitched it becuase we were told we'd need the D/C shaft. Keep in mind we added another 20mm lift to help out the D/C shaft which didn't work.
My guess: Remove that added 20mm lift that didn't help anyhow. This should improve the operation of a stock shaft even more. Throw in the rear shaft and balance via upper rear control adjusts. If all works I'll buy a used shaft to throw back in my '93 for the one I robbed.
WHAT AM I MISSING? Probably plenty?
I took the D/C front shaft out of the LX. I'll send that to Slee for inspection.
Meanwhile, we slapped the front stock shaft from our '93 into the LX. The U-joints felt good and consistent though the '93 has 165K on it so some wear to those U-joints must exist. When we drive the '93 every now and then we get some slack.
The test drive of the LX? 95% of the vibration is GONE with the '93 stock shaft in the LX! What's left though is a quick GRRR sound every time you go on and off the gas. Plus, some vibration does exist upon deceleration though it's slight. Also at a few speeds on decel there is some slight GRRR sound.
PLEASE KEEP IN MIND we still have the rear shaft out. It's awaiting another u-joint. Having it in might effect or reduce the current sounds.
MY QUESTION: So how do we end this? My gut? We never needed a D/C front shaft. We lifted the LX and vibration hit. The rear shaft had a bad U-joint. Maybe the front did too though we pitched it becuase we were told we'd need the D/C shaft. Keep in mind we added another 20mm lift to help out the D/C shaft which didn't work.
My guess: Remove that added 20mm lift that didn't help anyhow. This should improve the operation of a stock shaft even more. Throw in the rear shaft and balance via upper rear control adjusts. If all works I'll buy a used shaft to throw back in my '93 for the one I robbed.
WHAT AM I MISSING? Probably plenty?
Desertdude
Expedition Leader
I dunno - I am no expert - but I have been under my 80 all week - removing the diffs for regearing and ARB's install - and all the cosmetic parts I don't need- which makes talking about it somewhat easier as I can see all the parts and pieces and what they do and how it all works. When you take apart the front axles -there's a whole lot going on... :ylsmoke:
After reading and re reading many posts on all the issues and successes - it appears to be all about the angles ( diff/transfer) - castor correction needs and which driveshaft works best. OEM or DC shaft - and having all the parts up to snuff.
If you know what the angles are ( as precise as you can) this is the big indicator as to what to do next - without this it is all guess work and parts R&R - not a bad way but not to scientific.
This driveline link has some good info to shed light on part of the equation.
I think you are getting closer to your happy spot with your mods :jumping:
I agree, pinion angle is the key here, not the drive shaft. Changing to a double cardian shaft is going to allow for more smoother operation at greater angles, but this might be only a band aid fix. If you are getting bad vibrations on the road, I forsee potential problems on the trail. With full suspension droop, wich is probly alot with your suspension and increased tire weight, your pinion angle will even worsen. Add lockers, large tires, good surface traction and the weight of the LX, the u-joints could become prone to failure. Degree shimms will only help to the degree that the camber and caster can be adjusted, (returned to original.) I am assuming that has a high pinon third member? If not that would be the best solution. A permanent fix is to cut and rotate the third member. This points the pinion shaft directly at the transfer output, yeilding a perfect drive line angle. That way when the suspension is at a static height the shaft is perfectly straight and only angled mildly during suspension travel. This is a very common solution on fj40s due to their short wheelbase. Short wheelbase = steeper pinion angles. There is a good article with pictures here. although this is for a leaf spring truck, the basic procedure is the same for the LX.
www.4x4wire.com/toyota/tech/rotated_housing/
www.4x4wire.com/toyota/tech/rotated_housing/
ShottsCruisers
Explorer
OK, STOCK d-shaft demands:
In the rear...the T-case and rear pumpkin flanges should be parallel? Yes?
In the front...the Tcase and front pumpkin flanges should not be parallel? The front pnion should point to the T-case flange? (I thought this was a D/C front D-shaft demand?)
In the rear...the T-case and rear pumpkin flanges should be parallel? Yes?
In the front...the Tcase and front pumpkin flanges should not be parallel? The front pnion should point to the T-case flange? (I thought this was a D/C front D-shaft demand?)
Desertdude
Expedition Leader
I have seen your photos of the diff angle - without being there and without using a tool to measure the angle - The diff appears to be not quite pointing to the transfer case - which IMHO and a wild guess would mean you are in-between the OEM and DC shaft - you would need to correct the diff angle slightly - more or less - either way - to meet the needs of either DS -
The OEM shaft might be better cause it is closer to pointing to the Transfer case than being parallel - not by much though
You is stuck in middle earth with no DS to match :ylsmoke:
The true test will be both DS on with new U-joints - properly phased and balanced for a real test - ( after when all is better - I would also make sure those tires/wheels are dead on)
I am about three weeks behind your lift install - it will be interesting to see how Slee's 4" kit works out for me.
The OEM shaft might be better cause it is closer to pointing to the Transfer case than being parallel - not by much though
You is stuck in middle earth with no DS to match :ylsmoke:
The true test will be both DS on with new U-joints - properly phased and balanced for a real test - ( after when all is better - I would also make sure those tires/wheels are dead on)
I am about three weeks behind your lift install - it will be interesting to see how Slee's 4" kit works out for me.
ShottsCruisers
Explorer
Desertdude said:I have seen your photos of the diff angle - without being there and without using a tool to measure the angle - The diff appears to be not quite pointing to the transfer case - which IMHO and a wild guess would mean you are in-between the OEM and DC shaft - you would need to correct the diff angle slightly - more or less - either way - to meet the needs of either DS -
The OEM shaft might be better cause it is closer to pointing to the Transfer case than being parallel - not by much though
You is stuck in middle earth with no DS to match :ylsmoke:
The true test will be both DS on with new U-joints - properly phased and balanced for a real test - ( after when all is better - I would also make sure those tires/wheels are dead on)
I am about three weeks behind your lift install - it will be interesting to see how Slee's 4" kit works out for me.
Well...that's why I was up past midnight and couldn't sleep. This Lexus! If I could I'd rip it out, drop it to 3.5" and go anywhere. I can't. I have the caster plates welded on, adjusters welded into arms and pans....I'm comitted. So, I'm unloaded and can't use Slee-brand springs. Do I just thow in some 1.5" spacers F&R (5-6" lift) and be done? This will take the front pinion angle up into the Slee Lift Zone. :ylsmoke: Right?