Simple Questions

[MuddyMudskipper]

Yeah but you can get everything you need for the swap for under $400 and it takes 6 hours to do the entire swap with a buddy. Heck, that leaves enough money for pizza and beer...:sombrero:

:iagree: I wasn't sure if that was something he'd be willing to do/pay for. Not much info you know.

 

[TeriAnn]

In stock form, an average Land Rover is never going to outlast an average Toyota, so you have to decide what is important to you and how far you want to go in terms of investment (time, money...).

There are a lot of stock & very near stock 1960's Land Rovers that still venture out on the trail. While my Land Rover is nowhere near stock, it is 48 years old and I've put almost half a million miles on it during the last 30 years of ownership. Its the new trucks that I fear are mostly going to early graves.

Following the factory maintenance schedule is a great strategy for keeping entropy at bay. But alas, the eventual fate of Land Rovers is the same as that of the gods of Asgard.

Bottom line is that your rig will last as long as you are willing to stay on top of maintenance.

 

[Mercedesrover]

Here's the truck you need:

http://phoenix.craigslist.org/car/587700616.html

http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13483

 

[Yorker]

Here's the truck you need:

http://phoenix.craigslist.org/car/587700616.html

There you go that looks like a good one!

 

[Alaska Mike]

There are a lot of stock & very near stock 1960's Land Rovers that still venture out on the trail. While my Land Rover is nowhere near stock, it is 48 years old and I've put almost half a million miles on it during the last 30 years of ownership. Its the new trucks that I fear are mostly going to early graves.

Following the factory maintenance schedule is a great strategy for keeping entropy at bay. But alas, the eventual fate of Land Rovers is the same as that of the gods of Asgard.

Bottom line is that your rig will last as long as you are willing to stay on top of maintenance.

Compare a Toyota FJ-40 of the same vintage with the same maintenance schedule, and it will probably last longer than a Series Rover with fewer problems- especially given a hard life on the trail. They were generally built with much stronger components. Every design has its weak points, but as a whole I think they would outlast a Rover by quite a bit.

Our local Land Rover dealer has started filling his lot with used cars (including Jeeps). Anyone else see their dealer moving towards other options? If this is a trend and not an one-off instance, this doesn't bode well for parts/service availability for the newer rigs.

 

[michaelgroves]

Compare a Toyota FJ-40 of the same vintage with the same maintenance schedule, and it will probably last longer than a Series Rover with fewer problems- especially given a hard life on the trail. They were generally built with much stronger components. Every design has its weak points, but as a whole I think they would outlast a Rover by quite a bit.

How long something "lasts" generally ends up being a question of economics. Anything can be repaired, it just depends on how much it's worth to you to do so. Cars are scrapped when they get to the point when the repairs cost more than the car is worth to anyone.

That's one of the reasons why so many old Land Rovers are still going - people like them enough to keep fixing them. But another reason, is that they are eminently fixable, like giant meccano sets. Things bolt together. The main body panels don't rust away, so the vehicles lend themselves to periodic restoration projects. And they are pretty simple, which counts for plenty when lots of little parts are getting to the end of their lives, as usually it's the little detail things that make keeping an old car on the road into such a chore.

But if someone's considering buying a newish car, then that sort of longevity might not be the issue.

Here in the UK, RR P38s can be had for reasonably low prices, and parts are very cheap, even genuine LR parts. So it can be quite feasible to buy a P38 and keep running it as a DD and doing some off-road work with it, despite it's relative complexity and associated problems. But even here, I would say that good RR Classic or Disco I (or II) would be my choice. Or a Defender, of course!

 

[michaelgroves]

If you mean the aluminum V8s they are a pushrod design and may start to show their age at 150,000 (cam etc) maybe less maybe more depending on the maintenence they recieved. I don't think I've ever seen one with more than 230,000 on it without having some serious work done to it. Has anyone here seen one go farther than that without being opened up?

Yup, my father's 1972 RRC had 350,000 miles on it when he sold it, and never had the head off. But then it was the original 130hp 3.5 litre version of the engine, with 8.25:1 CR, and twin Stromberg carbs...

In its day, the alu V8 wasn't a bad engine, but its day really should have ended in the '70s!

 

[R_Lefebvre]

Again so much green oval hating in here.

Can anybody tell me what particularly have they experienced or seen about the V8's that make them less durable than the Series engines or any other engine in particular?

 

[michaelgroves]

How much do you have to spend? If you have less money, then stick with the Disco 1, pre-99. These trucks are simpler, have a diff lock, and are obviously cheaper because they're older. Of course: they're older, so they will have more miles and be that much closer to death.

The Disco 2's are more sophisticated and comfortable. They have a fancy traction control system and no diff-lock. The 99-01 does have center diff lock bits in the transfer case, but the linkage is missing. You can retrofit without too much trouble. The 02-03 actually have the bits missing from the transfer case, so no CDL without changing cases. The 04 is, I think, the ultimate Disco to get if you can afford it. They come with CDL, and they have the fancy traction control which is nice. Particularly the Hill Descent Control since none of the D2's have a manual trans in the US.

The lack of CDL in some model-year Disco IIs was a pity, but not that big an issue, given that it had arguably the best electronic traction control systems of its day. Other thing being equal, an ETC-equipped vehicle (with no CDL) would compare favourably with a CDL-equipped vehicle (without ETC), in terms of general off-road performance.

A CDL has the advantage in that it provides a positive "lock" between front and rear axles, where ETC has to detect and then correct any wheel-spin (which, in fairness, it does in milliseconds). On the other hand, ETC offers the ability to take advantage of traction under any wheel, where the CDL needs traction under both wheels on at least one of the axles.

For me the real downside of ETC instead of CDL is if you decide you want to install full lockers front and rear, in which case the lack of CDL would mean still relying on the ETC to correct any inter-axle wheel-spin. (I.e. if the rear wheels were on ice, say, then they would spin as a pair, unless and until the ETC applied the brake to one or both of the rear pair.)

Of course, having both is still better than having either! One assumes Land Rover's rationale for omitting the CDL was to make things simpler for the driver - ETC is very much idiot-proof, and much kinder to the drive-train than diff locks. (ETC, by its nature, only allows 25% of the torque to go through a single half-shaft, whereas a fully locked system can theoretically have 100% go through one half-shaft).

 

[michaelgroves]

Again so much green oval hating in here.

Can anybody tell me what particularly have they experienced or seen about the V8's that make them less durable than the Series engines or any other engine in particular?

I think the big problem with the LR V8 is that it's waaay outdated now. It's based on an old Buick engine from the 50s that Mercury Marine bought the rights to (for marine engines), and then sold on to Rover. Rover put it into some of their cars, including the Range Rover, in 3.5 litre form, in various stages of tune, at the end of the sixties. Since then it's been bored and stroked and otherwise modernised several times, but it's just an old, albeit nice and lightweight, engine. My own opinion is that the block design is simply unsuitable for the power/torque/economy/refinement/service intervals/emissions that consumers have got used to these days.

Me, I like diesels anyway

 

[overlander]

Me, I like diesels anyway

It is a crime against humanity that the Rover TDI's were never introduced in the US. That, the 10 spline axle, and the Freelander are the biggest mistakes LR ever made. :violent-smiley-031:

It's also a shame that Land Rover wasn't really in the US and/or promoting during the best years of Camel Trophy. Most people I have talked to in the US have never heard of it, but every European I have talked to has.

 

[michaelgroves]

....are the biggest mistakes LR ever made..

Don't let's open that door! LOL

 

[michaelgroves]

It's also a shame that Land Rover wasn't really in the US and/or promoting during the best years of Camel Trophy.

:iagree:
Especially as there were US teams competing in most years. I'm kinda surprised (though personally, quite relieved) that Camel didn't do more to promote it and get their share of the publicity, too.

 

[Oilburner]

Again so much green oval hating in here.

Can anybody tell me what particularly have they experienced or seen about the V8's that make them less durable than the Series engines or any other engine in particular?

I don't want to scare you, as all engines have this type of list of possible issues, but the Rover V8s definitely have inherent problems. They have a high propensity for dropping cylinder liners due to design of engine block - all Rover V8s suffer from this, 4.2 from 93-95 LWB seems to be the worst. Often misdiagnosed as head gasket issues. Also, they have issues with improper clearance for intake and exhaust valve guides causing eventual misfiring issues and eventually requiring head removal in order to ream guides. 1995 to 2000 ish Discos seem especially prone to this. Usually become a problem at about 80-100K miles. Also, major oil leak issues from intake valley pan, front and rear main, oil pan, oil cooler lines, basically every single seal in the block.

The Rover V8 isn't a bad engine, but it's definitely not great either. Some seem to get great service out of them, I have seen a couple with 300K miles and nothing but normal maintenance, but they are definitely the exception to the rule. What seems to kill them in colder climates (sub zero) is oil gunking. Engines that are not run at operating temperature for long periods of time tend to coke up and gunk up and they die a horrible death. I have seen D1s with less than 50K miles with the worst sludge imaginable, and some (high highway miles) with super clean intake valleys (no gunk).

The V8s are pretty average as far as longevity but require more maintenance and upkeep than what is usual. Beyond 200K it's a tossup.

 

[Alaska Mike]

How long something "lasts" generally ends up being a question of economics. Anything can be repaired, it just depends on how much it's worth to you to do so. Cars are scrapped when they get to the point when the repairs cost more than the car is worth to anyone.

I was speaking to the North American market, specifically the US market, where the Land Rover isn't quite as common. Parts availability for older models is mostly limited to a handful of vendors, which means increased costs and shipping expense. The US market also didn't get the engine (no diesel for most models) or trim levels available in Britain.

That's one of the reasons why so many old Land Rovers are still going - people like them enough to keep fixing them. But another reason, is that they are eminently fixable, like giant meccano sets. Things bolt together. The main body panels don't rust away, so the vehicles lend themselves to periodic restoration projects. And they are pretty simple, which counts for plenty when lots of little parts are getting to the end of their lives, as usually it's the little detail things that make keeping an old car on the road into such a chore.

I think you'll find most popular 4x4 vehicles that are the Series Rover's contemporaries, like the Jeep CJ-5 or the Toyota FJ-40, a similar in the respect that they are bolted together in a manner that makes them easy to maintain and modify. The corrosion issues are there, but they are not much worse than on most Rovers. The Rover bulkhead and frame are certainly problem areas for Rovers, and can be complicated further by galvanic corrosion. Older, iconic vehicles like that usually inspire fanatical devotion by their owners, which is good.

However, my point was that, model-for-model, Toyota overbuilt when compared to Land Rover, and the cost of ownership to maintain the same level of performance over the years is less in my experience. While I respect a Toyota FJ-40s capabilities and reliability, I've never lusted over one like I have a Series Rover. The classic Land Rover image got me, hook, line, and sinker. The rest I'll deal with.

But if someone's considering buying a newish car, then that sort of longevity might not be the issue.

Here in the UK, RR P38s can be had for reasonably low prices, and parts are very cheap, even genuine LR parts. So it can be quite feasible to buy a P38 and keep running it as a DD and doing some off-road work with it, despite it's relative complexity and associated problems. But even here, I would say that good RR Classic or Disco I (or II) would be my choice. Or a Defender, of course!

Again, the North American market is very different. The last time I was in the local Land Rover dealership, I sensed a bit of uncertainty in the owner's voice about the change in Land Rover ownership and what it might mean for the North American market, even as he tried to sell me on a LR3. He has since started selling used cars from every maker on his main lot, and his parts department is a shell of what it once was. It's still a Land Rover dealership, but he's hedging his bets against lean times. I don't blame him. The market for non-fuel efficient luxury vehicles is softening.

I still cruise the local classifieds for Rovers and briefly ponder the possibilities of getting a Disco I or Range Rover, but the wife would kill me. I'm already mostly dead as it is.