Soft shackle vs iron shackle

[heimbig]

Soft shackle vs iron shackle
Blame this thread on my wife, she came across the Factor 55 Flatlink XXL which looks awesome since it will fold flat and be out of the way - looks much better than my hook. Their information on closed winching seems absolutely right, and (to their detriment) they talked about compatibility with soft shackles. Which got me thinking why do I need a hook or ‘Flatlink’ or ‘safety thimble’ or D-shackles at all?
Flatlink is cool and expensive, but I can use a short 7/8” black nylon rod through my thimble and suck the winch line thimble through the hawse fairlead and get rid of the big ugly yellow hook that dangles over to the D-shackled weldons on the bumper. Not as cool as the flatlink but the hook would be gone. Maybe I’ll cover it all with a flip up license plate cover.
Background: GOVE Overland vehicle, GVW 19,000 lbs, 18,000 lbs Superwinch front and rear with large heavy hook and ½” Amsteel blue line. I’ll rarely use any of this gear but when we (wife and I) do we’ll likely be alone. Currently don't own winch extensions, but need to soon - leaving the country in May 2017.
For winching I could get rid of the hook and connect my winch line thimble to my tree savers: 7/8” D-shackle (it’s 1” pin is as large as will fit through my Gusseted crush proof tube thimbles on my winch line) a soft Shackle Why mess with the D-shackle or hook or flatlink?
For winch extensions I could use: soft-eyed extensions and 2 D-shackles Gusseted crush proof tube thimbles on the line with Soft Shackles to connect each extension. Both result in 1 to 2 curve ratio for the line. The rope makers say use 1 to 3 which the eye of thimble is. Soft shackle and thimble (1/2” line 1” wide thimble), likewise, Soft eyed extension lines with D-shackles (a 1” shackle is - duh - 1” diameter) 2 iron shackles required for each connection.
From my reading no personal experience:
Benefits soft shackle	Benefits of iron
Very light	Heavy: 5 lbs for 1” required for my situation, 9.5 lbs for 1-¼”
Fits through gusseted Tube Thimble	7/8” (1” pin) shackle will fit, D part of iron shackle will not fit through the thimble. Therefore need 2 to connect tube thimble winch extensions (which is why many recommend soft thimbles for winch extensions)
Very stowable	less stowable
Need same care as synthetic winch line	Very rugged
Will never become a projectile	Can become a deadly projectile
Damage is visible	Damage can be hidden
If you use these they do wear out (no worse than synthetic winch line)	Last a lifetime if cared for
More expensive (2x to buy, about the same if make it yourself)	Cheaper than soft shackles
Buying vs building your own soft shackle:
Bubba Rope uses 7/16 line with their Gator-Jaw® Synthetic Shackle and claim 32,000 lb breaking strength same as ½” Amsteel blue line. $43.00 If I built my own I’d use ½” Amsteel blue line, a 12” long shackle requires 76” of line and thus costs about half of the Bubba Shackle. Really good instructions and a calculator at http://L-36.com http://l-36.com/soft_shackle_9.php The knot is the weakest point and the standard diamond knot is weaker than the preferred button knot which is what Bubba appears to be using.
Some expedition portal references:
http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...uot-Soft-Shackles-quot?highlight=soft+shackle
http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/59758-Soft-Shackle?highlight=soft+shackle
http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...-B-Soft-Shackle-review?highlight=soft+shackle
Other than higher cost of soft shackle:
Other than being faster to rig, what is the point of a hook?
What are your real world experiences with soft shackles?
Reasons to not get rid of all the extra iron in the hook and D-shackles?

 

[DaveInDenver]

The problem I have with soft shackles (and similar) in general is the rating is dependent on the deterioration, workmanship, braiding and knots. Not to say they aren't and can't be strong, but when you pick up a 3/4" bow shackle and it says 4.75 tons it will always be 4.75 tons.

The loading derating is also consistent, e.g. inline is 100%, 45 degrees is 70%, 90 degrees is 50%. Inspection isn't as hard as you suggest, nicks, cuts, distortion aren't difficult to see and a micrometer will tell you quickly if it's ever been overloaded or twisted. Measure to see if narrowest section is less than 5% smaller than expected nominal diameter and the opening should be perfectly parallel.

I agree with you about winch hooks, they are a pain. I also agree with you about the safety of soft rigging and synthetic lines in general, so I'm not suggesting one is right or wrong compared to the other. Just that rating and testing is important. Another point is corrosion resistance is in favor of soft rigging, which is a definitely advantage.

 

[Ducky's Dad]

I agree with you about winch hooks, they are a pain.

Daystar makes a winch thingy that solves the hook problem. It's basically a polyurethane collar that goes around the cable and you just winch the hook back into the collar and it's snug and quiet. Collar also acts as a cable damper when deployed. I have one on my Power Wagon.

 

[fluffyprinceton]

"Reasons to not get rid of all the extra iron in the hook and D-shackles?" Only 2 reasons I can think of - 1. If I had to winch as a regular job I'd want the convenience & durability of steel. 2. It's necessary to have steel when hooking to a steel edge on a vehicle frame for instance.

I make my own so I can replace or make more when necessary.Moe

 

[Happy Joe]

I should do my own research; but I wonder if soft shackles are OSHA approved (I know some of my older steel GI shackles are not)...

Enjoy!

 

[Wh1t3nukle]

Use what is appropriate for the rigging situation. There are no absolutes.

I still use a hook, specifically the Warn hook. Previously, the MasterPull one with their rope. Very easy to work with as they much larger than typical. Easily slip big strap loops and seat well; avoid binding/pinch.

I also use a soft shackle 5/8" base rope. It has a sleeve. Agreed on the earlier comment regarding degradation. Advantage is easier overall use vs shackle. Pain in the butt for closed system like f55, but doable. I'll use shackle with f55 all the time instead.

Also hooking to another rig, typically needs shackle due to type of mount.

I do alot of snow wheeling and that's where soft shackles really shine. If needed, it's best to use bt 2 straps.

Another great tool for the box.

 

[LR Max]

Best luck I've had with soft shackles is hooking up to stock tow points. Thankfully newer vehicles have a tow point readily available, but often it is an odd shape or wedged in the air dam. This can be difficult to use with a steel shackle. But a soft shackle works perfectly.

Also when rigging, I just stuff a soft shackle in my pocket in case I need it. Sometimes you need another shackle/an extra one. With 100ft of winch line up a stupid steep hill, I really don't want to walk back down to get another piece.

 

[DaveInDenver]

OSHA applies to the workplace, so some Chump unstucking a car, probably not applicable.
But if 'regs do apply, I expect they are viewed as slings & associated riggings.
One requirement, they must have manufacturer permanently attached nameplate with SWL shown.

They'd have to have a proof load test to some factor of the manufacturer's rating. Some places (like NASA) further derate beyond the proof test. It's not that soft rigging is bad, but it's usually sewn rather than knotted or swaged. But also remember ANSI and OSHA are concerned primarily with overhead lifting so how much margin and how something is used for towing and recovery isn't exactly the same. ASME B30.26 (shackles & blocks), B30.9 (rope & slings) and B30.10 (hooks) drives this primarily I believe.

 

[TwinStick]

Anything can fail, anything. I once had the opportunity to watch an M60 tank retrieval from a swamp. It is what i think of every time i reach for a/my winch. It was buried, Only thing sticking out was the turret, the rest was sunk. A M88 tank retriever tried to get it out, by itself. The swamp was 40-50' down an embankment from the field that the M88 used as it's platform. It had a 120 ton winch with about 1.5"-2" cable. I took my Jeep (MUTT-M151) to a hill top to safely watch. So, they put up the boom, spooled out the cable, hooked to the tank, dropped the dozer blade & started winching. It began dragging the M88 towards the edge. They put the blade down further, it started to roll the ground up. Things started to creek, groan & pop. Then the blade caught something big. M88 stopped moving forward. More bad sounds. Then I noticed the boom was getting lower. Tension must have been enormous. Then it happened. Like time stood still for a second. An extremely loud bang. Boom sprung back up & I heard the eeriest sound ever. It was like a loud whistle. It was the cable coming back at the M88. It went up & over & whiplashed the back of the tank, leaving a big gash in the steel. What we didn't know, was that the cable sheered a 12" dia tree in half before it came up over the embankment !!! VERY SCARY stuff. So, the next day, they came back with 3 M88's & used all 3 together & got it out & up over the embankment. Ft Drum.

 

[Happy Joe]

Yep, any thing can break however I look as OSHA guidelines as minimum acceptable (without them we would likely not have wear threads in out snatch, tow, lifting and tree straps)...I may elect to ignore OSHA when doing some thing myself but as a rule they provide good guidance (as far as I can recall, every strap that I have seen break had exposed wear thread, indicating that it should have been replaced rather than used..
I would like to think that soft shackles are safe and reliable but until they become widespread in the rigging trade (where OSHA applies) I will stick to the old steel shackles; they aren't all that heavy/hard to use and I have more than I need; some are probably near as antique as myself.

Enjoy!

 

[DaveInDenver]

TwinStick, that's a great story. Would have loved to see a video of that attempt and later actual recovery.

 

[heimbig]

Thanks all, Happy Joe : I didn't know there are wear threads on tree straps. What do they look like? I suppose they are hidden until the strap is worn...

 

[Wh1t3nukle]

Made this the other day as a nice reminder of ratings for common gear.

You're only as strong as your weakest link.

Keep in mind use of rear tow hitch location the Class. Iirc Class 4-5 are rated to 10 kips.


Use the appropriate rigging for the situation. There is a difference from a steady ramp in load to a shock (yank) load. In general, steel Dring is to steady and soft shackle is to shock load.

 

[Happy Joe]

Thanks all, Happy Joe : I didn't know there are wear threads on tree straps. What do they look like? I suppose they are hidden until the strap is worn...

Yup! .. what Verkstad said... red or orange yarns that become visible as the strap edge becomes frayed/fuzzy/worn/cut.

Edit; I'm not certain tha all straps have the warning threads (as has been mentioned OSHA does not apply to most of us off road); however at least some of the higher quality ones do.

Enjoy!

 

[rea9390]

Just a few comments to add to the discussion. OSHA itself does not approve of any specific products, the products are tested by independent organizations to meet a performance requirement that is set by OSHA. Here is the quote from OSHA.

"While OSHA does not approve or endorse products, there are a small number of products, which if used in a workplace, do require approval before being acceptable to OSHA. Products which use electric energy, liquid petroleum gas, and fire suppression equipment, to name a few must be "acceptable" to OSHA. This generally means that the product must be tested and certified by a Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory (NRTL). A complete list of products requiring NRTL approval can be found at: (https://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/prodcatg.html). Products that require testing and certification by an NRTL can be submitted directly to the NRTL for testing. A list of NRTLs recognized by OSHA is available at: https://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/"

I'm more of an OSHA expert than a winching expert, typical failures in workplace have to do with employee error, damaged rigging, or a rigging system that includes a component that does not meet the required capacity plus safety margin for the lift. As you all know it doesn't matter what the original rating for your cable, damage will degrade it's safe operating load to an unknown capacity. Knowledge of operator is critical, in vehicle recovery situations the actual weights involved are mostly not known, estimates need to be based on weight of vehicle, grades, mud/snow complicating things rapidly.

Take care