Solar Panel/Charge Controller and Dual Battery Question

4x4junkie

Explorer
Corroded and/or loose cables are very common and those are very easy to spot, but you still have to physically check, absent precise monitors from the cabin. Battery Cells could short or open due to vibration, individual cells could be low on water and have the plates exposed, isolators could develop huge drops, charging relays sticking, too many to mention. Without monitoring equipment in the cabin it's cumbersome to make sure your power system is in top shape.


A bank of parallel batteries does not have isolators or relays (if it did, then it wouldn't be a "parallel bank"). ;)
You are correct about a failed cell and/or forgetting to do proper maintenance (when required) causing problems, however that probably should go without saying. My comment was in reference to an otherwise healthy set of batteries.
 

G35Vortec454

Adventurer
A bank of parallel batteries does not have isolators or relays (if it did, then it wouldn't be a "parallel bank"). ;)
You are correct about a failed cell and/or forgetting to do proper maintenance (when required) causing problems, however that probably should go without saying. My comment was in reference to an otherwise healthy set of batteries.

An elaborate system easily could have all those components, including batteries in series connected in parallel in each bank, not to mention a separate engine starting battery, and a separate generator starting battery, which are separated by multi-bank isolator. The shore power automatic transfer switch is actually a relay. The ACR, charging relay, is commonly used to integrate alternator charging, although i personally do not use it. One has to look at a self-contained mobile power system in a wider perspective, especially when current demands approach beyond 200A loads on the battery banks for hours.
 
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4x4junkie

Explorer
I think you are misunderstanding here...
I am referring to a single bank of matched parallel batteries (as the OP here was asking about, two simple batteries in his truck wired parallel). Those two batteries should not become imbalanced unless a connection got corroded, or one battery was to have a cell failure.
A separate starting battery or generator battery would not be part of said parallel bank.
 

dwh

Tail-End Charlie
Batteries tied in a permanent bank (series or parallel) should all be the same size, type and age - and have properly balanced wiring. If so, then charge/discharge would be equal across all batteries, since they are essentially just one big battery.

Batteries of different size, type or age, when tied together ONLY during charging (such as with a split-charge relay) - no problem; as they will both eventually reach 14.4v during the bulk stage and then both be fine at float voltage. This configuration is one situation where you have to worry about getting stuck in absorb, as the extended time at a higher voltage might be fine for one battery but end up overcharging the other.


For batteries of the same type tied in a PARALLEL bank, the wiring is very important. Improper wiring WILL cause one or another of the batteries to work A LITTLE BIT more than the other during charge/discharge, which will eventually lead to that battery wearing out first. That is explained here:

http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/batt_con.html


For the motorcycle batteries on a tender question: Sure, go ahead. The tender is just going to hold them at float voltage anyway, so it's not like there will be any extreme voltages to do harm to any of the batteries.
 

G35Vortec454

Adventurer
http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/batt_con.html[/URL]

batteries.

Theoretically correct. Practically, as stated in the link, it is unelegant and, for me, poses challenges specially when the banks are in different locations under the vehicle and connecting additional wiring for instrumentation / monitoring of the individual banks. I can say without shame that my setup is a hybrid of all the methods, that i don't use method 3 or 4. However, I use 4/0 (i.e. 0000) cables to connect the banks. My 3 banks charge/discharge within 5A at 200A total charge/load. Yes, my HO alternator briefly pushes 200A to the 3 banks at times.

It is impossible to have all banks perform exactly, therefore, When doing periodic maintenance, yearly or so, it is important to rotate / balance your batteries (just like you do your tires), including replacing the lowest performing ones and placing the higher performing ones where they belong in the system to achieve the most optimum balance. I don't replace all 6 batteries, heck no, not every year. You'll find that the SG in older ones still very good, and newer ones need replacement. Now, who said having a reliable mobile power system plug and play? :)
 
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JCTex

Observer
I have different kinds and sizes of batteries. My starting battery is a Diehard Premium (Odessey) AGM. I'm not sure what it 20-hr Amp rating is because it's not a deep-cycle battery. They rate starting batteries differently. My house batteries are 2 Lifeline 6CT's that, when connected in series, create a 12V 300Ah rated battery bank.

I have a really good PWM solar charger, SC 2030 by TriMetric, and an accompanying TM 2030 RV monitor. I've got 400W of solar coming down.

I want my 180A alternator to charge my house bank when the starting battery is full. I want my solar controller to charge my starting battery when the alternator's not running. I want my house bank to help my starting battery if it gets too low. HOWEVER, I do not want my alternator trying to charge both sets at the same time because my starting battery may try to level the house bank, reducing the bank unnecessarily. I do not want my charge controller and my alternator competing with each other and, after sensing incoming current and interpreting it as a full battery, turning them both off.

I kinda believe I may have to do a manual switchover on the alternator's output. Considering all the above, anyone have any better idea.

Jerry
 

broken1

Observer
I have different kinds and sizes of batteries. My starting battery is a Diehard Premium (Odessey) AGM. I'm not sure what it 20-hr Amp rating is because it's not a deep-cycle battery. They rate starting batteries differently. My house batteries are 2 Lifeline 6CT's that, when connected in series, create a 12V 300Ah rated battery bank.
That's a sweet setup. If your Diehard is the PM1 it is the same as the Odyssey PC2150 and is an honest to goodness 100AH at 20/hr rate. If it isn't you can use the web to cross reference the Odyssey model number and they will have the spec.

I have a really good PWM solar charger, SC 2030 by TriMetric, and an accompanying TM 2030 RV monitor. I've got 400W of solar coming down.

I want my 180A alternator to charge my house bank when the starting battery is full. I want my solar controller to charge my starting battery when the alternator's not running. I want my house bank to help my starting battery if it gets too low. HOWEVER, I do not want my alternator trying to charge both sets at the same time because my starting battery may try to level the house bank, reducing the bank unnecessarily. I do not want my charge controller and my alternator competing with each other and, after sensing incoming current and interpreting it as a full battery, turning them both off.

I kinda believe I may have to do a manual switchover on the alternator's output. Considering all the above, anyone have any better idea.

Jerry

I would say you need two different pieces to fulfill your desires.

For the "I want my house bank to help my starting battery if it gets too low." and "I want my 180A alternator to charge my house bank when the starting battery is full."
https://www.bluesea.com/products/76...rging_Relay_with_Manual_Control_-_12V_DC_500A That does all that.

For the "HOWEVER, I do not want my alternator trying to charge both sets at the same time because my starting battery may try to level the house bank, reducing the bank unnecessarily.", that gets complicated. If you don't use a system that will intelligently charge both then the chassis battery will be draining the whole time while you are driving (lights, radio, etc...) if it is charging the house batteries. That's why I would suggest something like the Blue Sea ACR above. That will protect you from cross discharge but will charge both when and as appropriate.

For the "I want my solar controller to charge my starting battery when the alternator's not running." I would suggest the MorningStar SunSaver Duo.
http://www.morningstarcorp.com/products/sunsaver-duo/
You pick which battery gets priority and how much. I.e. My starting battery gets 90% of the charge current and the house gets 10% until 1 of them is full, then 100% goes to whichever is still low. or 50/50 and I think you can with some extra interface get more specific than that. There is no bridging or anything, and it doesn't care what other charging toys you have.

For the "I do not want my charge controller and my alternator competing with each other and, after sensing incoming current and interpreting it as a full battery, turning them both off" If you have your solar hard mounted and didn't want the alternator and solar on at the same time you could wire up a relay inline with the solar input to the controller that is normally closed and have it thrown by a switched hot from the ignition circuit. That way engine on means solar off.
 

228B

Observer
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broken1's advice is sound (it always is! although to be honest I did not read every detail of his most recent post... my bad).
Here's another possible way of doing it...
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JCTex
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I have different kinds and sizes of batteries.
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And you should treat them as such; each with their own charging system.
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My starting battery is a Diehard Premium (Odessey) AGM. I'm not sure what it 20-hr Amp rating is because it's not a deep-cycle battery.
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Look again at the label of your DieHard that you think is an Odyssey. If it says "Platinum" rather than "Premium", then it is definitely as broken1 noted, an Odyssey AGM. The group number would lend a clue to it's amp hour capacity. It's probably a Group 27 or a Group 31.
Chances are your alternator is undercharging that battery. That battery requires a long time in absorption and at a specific 14.7 voltage. Solar will do this, with a controller that is user adjustable. Too, that battery should be given a float of 13.6 indefinitely where possible. Solar will do this too.
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Here is a tech PDF for your battery. Have a look at Pages 12, 13 and 14
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They rate starting batteries differently.
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They do, but that Sears/Odyssey falls into the "Marine" battery category; one that has the ability to provide massive bulk amps for starting engines yet provide reliable deep-cycle discharge and charge cycles. Really, though, these Odysseys with their starved-electrolyte design and %99.99 "pure virgin lead" plates are in an application class by themselves and are definitely on the same quality level as the LifeLine.
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My house batteries are 2 Lifeline 6CT's that, when connected in series, create a 12V 300Ah rated battery bank.
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I have a really good PWM solar charger, SC 2030 by TriMetric, and an accompanying TM 2030 RV monitor. I've got 400W of solar coming down.
.
You have quite possibly THE BEST set up available today for a small mobile solar electric power system with Bogart Engineering's new charge controller and that amazing meter! The best, according to HandyBob.Shearer! lol. That man is a saint.
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I want my 180A alternator to charge my house bank when the starting battery is full. I want my solar controller to charge my starting battery when the alternator's not running. I want my house bank to help my starting battery if it gets too low. HOWEVER, I do not want my alternator trying to charge both sets at the same time because my starting battery may try to level the house bank, reducing the bank unnecessarily. I do not want my charge controller and my alternator competing with each other and, after sensing incoming current and interpreting it as a full battery, turning them both off.
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I kinda believe I may have to do a manual switchover on the alternator's output. Considering all the above, anyone have any better idea.
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Jerry
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Yes. Perhaps not "better" but definitely "simpler" after all is said and done. Build another small solar setup for the Sears/Odyssey and give it the charge profile it needs, and leave your LifeLine/Trimetric system to itself. This scenario may cost more of your dollars and your time initially, but in the long run you will have peace of mind that each battery "system"; your cranking battery system then your house battery system is receiving the best possible solar charging treatment.
 

228B

Observer
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Welcome. It's a pleasure. I like what you, dwh and verkstad have to say whenever you guys pop in. :costumed-smiley-007
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Regarding Tex's setup, I'd like to add that he can still use his alternator in his situation; it will only help to shorten the necessary "bulk" charge phase, beginning the longer, very important absorption phase sooner, leaving more of the day's remaining sunlight for that task.
 

dwh

Tail-End Charlie
I want my 180A alternator to charge my house bank when the starting battery is full.

Unless you are doing something to actually drain your starting battery, it's always full. Even starting the truck only uses maybe 1/5 of an amp hour.


I want my solar controller to charge my starting battery when the alternator's not running.

Again, unless you are doing something to drain the starting battery when the engine is off, you don't actually need this.


I want my house bank to help my starting battery if it gets too low.


HOWEVER, I do not want my alternator trying to charge both sets at the same time because my starting battery may try to level the house bank, reducing the bank unnecessarily.

If all you use the starting battery for is starting, then it's not going to drain the house bank. If they were tied when the engine is off, the house bank will probably draw down the engine battery - but that isn't going to happen when the alternator is up and running and supplying power to the bus.


I do not want my charge controller and my alternator competing with each other and, after sensing incoming current and interpreting it as a full battery, turning them both off.

Not how it works. They don't operate by sensing current, they operate by sensing voltage.

Think of two air compressors, each with its own pressure switch. The voltage regulator is the pressure switch for the alternator, the solar charge controller is the pressure switch for the solar. They are separate systems, and do not compete.

If the solar is set to say 14.8v and the voltage regulator is set to say 14.5v, and the bus is at say 14.0v - then both system will be active and supplying power to the bus. As the bus voltage rises up above 14.5v, the voltage regulator will shut down the alternator, but the solar will still be turned on until the bus voltage rises to 14.8v.




Get the Blue Sea ACR. Get the big one with the manual override and the 500a rating. Connect the solar to the aux battery bank. It will do everything you need automatically, and also allow you to manually override should you need to actually self-jump (sounds good on paper, in reality, almost never used).
 
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JCTex

Observer
Thanks. Apologies, as necessary, to OP if my Q is too far off. While my setup is maybe a little more advanced, both of us are asking the same general thing about systems interfacing. If someone searches and finds this thread someday, it'll save them lots of invented wheels.

The reasons I'm trying to get solar to the starting battery are: 1) currently all my 12V lighting is hooked to the OE system, 2) if I leave my inside light on (even after switching the, over to LED) or run my campsite outdoor LED lights off the OE, I will draw the Diehard down, and 3) if I do a winch recovery the starting battery will need more than the alternator can give, at least right away. I just thought there might be times when I use the starting battery for camp things, if solar could refill it, it'd be full the next day.

Having said that, with my concerns about disparate batteries, and those ya'll have mentioned I'd not thought about, I think the best approach is to set the house bank and solar up separately. I might move some lighting over there, too. HOWEVER, if A. I find myself with a starting battery too low too often, or if B. my house bank can't get recharged due to no sunny weather, then I'll design something then. That's the simplest approach.

I've studied the Blue Sea smart isolator and relay before and for reasons I can't remember, discarded them I will revisit.

Nations Alternators in Missouri suggested I put a Balmar regulator on my alternator. It acts like a multi stage charger and is designed to send voltage at the three different levels to whichever load is calling for more. It also protects the alternator from working itself todeath trying to get 150A back into my house bank. That's all good; but I still need the smart solenoid switchover to get the alternator's juice into both systems. I'll get the house bank and solar operational and see how things go.

Jerry
 

DiploStrat

Expedition Leader
Making this MUCH too Hard!

Reread some of dwh's many posts, and, immodestly, some of mine.

Is your vehicle less than ten years old? If so, slap a voltmeter on the alternator output right after you start the engine. What is the reading? Over 14v at about 20C/70F? Then you are fine. You don't need a secondary regulator or much else.

N.B. If you have a '70's vehicle and get a number BELOW 14v, then you may need a secondary regulator (like a B2B), but you also have another problem. Almost any lead acid battery that you can buy today, AGM or FLA, wants a charging voltage of between 14 and 15v at 20C.

In order to achieve a fast charge from your alternator, you DO need heavy wiring, something on the order of 1/0 cabling, depending on the amperage of your alternator and the distance. This handy tool will help you decide how much wire you need; change the values to your heart's content: http://www.calculator.net/voltage-d...ce=20&distanceunit=feet&amperes=150&x=80&y=16 Remember, your battery is made up of 2v cells; there is no real difference between "6v" batteries and "12v" batteries other than how you connect them. If the resistance is low enough, they will all act like one big battery and as their internal voltage rises, they will stop taking a charge. You don't really need a separate regular for each battery. You do want to separate them when they are discharging so that you don't hammer a starting battery. An intelligent relay will handle this nicely.


But, as has been noted, even if you run a bit small, it will only increase the charging time as long as your cable is basically large enough. Why, because voltage drop decreases as amp flow drops. (Play with the settings and you will see.) And the amp flow WILL drop (on a lead acid battery) as the battery voltage rises, that is, as it takes a charge.

Once you get the charge voltage over about 14v, the most important element is time and most of us don't run our engines long enough to fully charge a large battery bank. Bulk charge is relatively easy; big alternator, big wires, and you can get that initial 100A in there in about an hour. But after that, the charge rate is going to drop to 50A or below for the long absorb stage and this is where solar excels.

Sharing your solar charge with the starter battery is a nice feature for those who leave their vehicles parked for a long time (as in storage) and is easily accomplished with an intelligent relay (aka, Smart Battery Combiner, Automatic Charge Relay, etc.)

There are a thousand horror stories about why a relay based system cannot work and they are systematically discussed here: http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/technical1.html Keep reading, there is a LOT of material.

While it will be a few years before I can state categorically that my truck works, but I run a lead calcium starting battery (GM OEM) with 600Ah of Lifeline AGM batteries and after two years of heavy use, that is, multi month trips running a microwave and air conditioning with no generator, all of my batteries appear to be working beautifully.

N.B. The above comments are for lead acid batteries only; Lithiums are another issue. So too are Euro 6 regenerating alternators which may give new life to B2B products: http://www.redarc.com.au/handy-hint...ect_dual_battery_systems_charging_performanc/
 

dwh

Tail-End Charlie
Thanks. Apologies, as necessary, to OP if my Q is too far off. While my setup is maybe a little more advanced, both of us are asking the same general thing about systems interfacing. If someone searches and finds this thread someday, it'll save them lots of invented wheels.

The reasons I'm trying to get solar to the starting battery are: 1) currently all my 12V lighting is hooked to the OE system, 2) if I leave my inside light on (even after switching the, over to LED) or run my campsite outdoor LED lights off the OE, I will draw the Diehard down, and 3) if I do a winch recovery the starting battery will need more than the alternator can give, at least right away. I just thought there might be times when I use the starting battery for camp things, if solar could refill it, it'd be full the next day.

Having said that, with my concerns about disparate batteries, and those ya'll have mentioned I'd not thought about, I think the best approach is to set the house bank and solar up separately. I might move some lighting over there, too. HOWEVER, if A. I find myself with a starting battery too low too often, or if B. my house bank can't get recharged due to no sunny weather, then I'll design something then. That's the simplest approach.

I've studied the Blue Sea smart isolator and relay before and for reasons I can't remember, discarded them I will revisit.

A "dual sensing" ACR is good because it will tie the batteries whenever the voltage on either side rises (charging is going on). So when the engine is running, the voltage on the engine side rises and the house bank gets tied in so both charge. When the engine is off, but the solar is putting out power, the voltage on the house side rises and the batteries get tied, and the engine battery gets charged as well.

The gotcha in your situation is that you are drawing down the engine battery. So if you hook the solar to the house bank, then the ACR will not tie in the engine battery until the house bank voltage has risen to the tie-in set point. Depending on how big the house battery is, how far it's drawn down and how much solar you have, the house bank voltage might never rise high enough for the engine battery to get tied in and recharged. Even if it does, it might happen so late in the day that the engine battery doesn't get much of a charge before the sun goes down.

So, in your situation; hook the solar to the engine battery instead. That way, the majority of the solar power goes to recharge the engine battery first, and then when the engine battery voltage rises high enough, the ACR will tie in the house bank. If the house battery draws enough to bring down the engine battery, the ACR will untie them until the engine battery voltage comes back up, then automagically tie them together again.

So, at this point, you are thinking, "Right. That's why I don't want my alternator to charge the house bank until AFTER the engine battery is charged." Understandable. Fortunately, that's how the ACR works. It won't tie in the house bank until the engine battery voltage first gets high enough (13..0v for 90 seconds, or 13.5v for 30 seconds).

Of course, at 13.0v or 13.5v, the engine battery won't be "fully charged" if you've drawn it down a good ways. BUT, it will be "mostly charged" and at that point, it's going to be drawing a lot less amps off the alternator anyway. Whether or not the house bank is tied in, the engine battery is only going to absorb at whatever rate it chooses based on its own internal resistance. So you might as well go ahead and tie in the house bank and let the alternator feed it some amps WHILE the engine battery also absorbs whatever it can. With any lead-acid battery, It's that long-assed time required to absorb that you gotta worry about, not the relatively short time spent spent getting "bulked up".


For winching, you want the ACR with the manual over-ride. The smaller Blue Sea ACR doesn't have that, but the larger one does. That way you can force-tie the batteries when needed.

You can also force un-tie if you want to make all the solar go to the engine battery and none to the house bank. That wouldn't nomally be needed with the solar hooked to the house bank, but in your situation, you want to take care of the engine battery first, so you hook the solar to the engine battery instead of the house bank, and by forcing the ACR off, you can make sue ALL of the solar goes to the engine battery when you need to.


You certainly should move as many loads as possible to the house bank.


Different batteries is an issue if they are tied into a full-time bank. If they are only tied while charging, then it doesn't matter. Both your engine and house batteries are AGM. The Diehard/Odyssey wants 14.8v bulk/absorb, and the Lifelines want 14.6v bulk/absorb. Close enough for government work. All lead-acid batteries are nothing more than sloppy chemistry experiments in a plastic box. They are not at all precise electronic components. Get the voltage up high enough and hold it there long enough for the chemistry to get fully saturated and you're done. Both of your batteries could be fully charged even at 14.0v - but it will take longer to get fully absorbed/saturated.


Nations Alternators in Missouri suggested I put a Balmar regulator on my alternator. It acts like a multi stage charger and is designed to send voltage at the three different levels to whichever load is calling for more. It also protects the alternator from working itself todeath trying to get 150A back into my house bank. That's all good; but I still need the smart solenoid switchover to get the alternator's juice into both systems. I'll get the house bank and solar operational and see how things go.

If you've got a modern vehicle and the voltage regulator is part of the computer control system, you might not be able to simply "swap out the regulator". You also probably don't need to, since a modern computer controlled voltage regulator is going to be pretty smart to begin with.
 
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