Still Need HELP - Starting issues, 2001 DII

[Brian McVickers]

Hi gang,
Hopefully someone can help?

Problem:
- 2001 Land Rover DII, 130,000 miles.
- Intermittent starting problems -- The engine has been running fine with no issues. I parked it one day and went back an hour later and it would not start. The engine cranks but does not fire even after cranking for 5-10 seconds. So I let it sit for a minute, tried again and no fire. Then again and it started with just the slightest turn of the key like normal.
- The next morning it cranked for one or two seconds and then fired. drove for ten minutes stopped and parked, started back up ok, drove another ten minutes stopped and parked, tried to start ten minutes later and no go. Came back an hour later, turned the key but it would not start, waited a minute tried again and it started right up effortlessly.

When it is running it runs just fine with no issues.

Other issues to know in case they may be contributing in some way:
- Power Steering system has a leak from one of the hoses.
- Right Front Wheel Speed Sensor is giving off a code
- Check engine light has been coming on intermittently over the past few months but will go back off after a key cycle and never stays for very long, codes pulled when light is on say right front Oxygen Sensor bad signal.

Note, the engine recieved new plugs and wires at 100,000 miles along with a new Diehard Platinum battery.

Again, when the engine is running it runs and drives just fine.

Suggestions I have heard so far:

1- Bad or failing Crank Position Sensor (some have said this could be it and others have said that the CPS either works or does not with no intermittent behavior so it would not be likely in this case)

2- Fuel Pump issues (I have exposed the fuel pump and disconnected the plugs on top to check for voltage but I don't think I am doing it right, how should this be done? )

3- Fuzes for:
- Fuel Pump (looks ok)
- Ignition (the metal strip in the fuze is intact but it is silver color while all the other similar fuzes have a gold/copper colored metal strip. I am planning to replace this fuze in case the discoloration is an indication of failure.)

Any and all ideas are very welcome.

Thanks
Brian

 

[Paladin]

1. Quite likely.
2. Possible, but not common on D2's. You need to get a fuel pressure gauge hooked up and see what's it's reading when it won't start. That is the best way to pass judgement on any number of fueling problems.
3. I'm guessing that that fuse blew at some point, and was replaced with a US-made fuse. The difference could be just the new fuse is tinned copper, and the old ones are bare copper. Maybe they leave them bare in the UK? I normally see the fuse strip being silver.

4. Coil pack. You need to check for spark when it won't start.

That gets your basics out of the way. After that, could be anything. Security system issue. Fuel injector harness problem, etc.

 

[Brian McVickers]

Thanks,
How do you suggest checking the coil pack for spark?
Wouldn't the lack of spark cause a misfire while allowing the engine to start.

 

[Paladin]

Checking for spark is easy. Just pull a wire off the plug, stick in another plug and ground it to the block. DO NOT HOLD IT WITH YOUR HAND! Crank the truck. You should see a spark. Don't have your hand anywhere near while you're cranking. You don't want to get shocked. Also, don't crank long if it's not grounded well. If the coil is active, but not grounded, it's hard on the coil, and will burn it out.

I won't even begin to imagine all the scenarios of a possible intermittent failure that would stop a truck from starting, but not misfire once running. Anything can happen.

 

[jeff_wright]

Same symptons of what was happening with our DII and it ended up being the crank sensor.

 

[Brian McVickers]

Solutoin!!!

Well I think I figured it out.
After reading about a similar scenario over on Land Rovers Only forum I asked my wife Amy to turn the key to position 2 while I went and put my ear to the fuel pump which I had already exposed under the rear carpet.

The fuel pump should run for 2 seconds to presurize the system when the key is turned to position 2.

Amy turned the key and I heard nothing. She tried again and still nothing.

So I went to the fuze box under the hood and took out the fuel pump relay. Then I took out the windshield washer pump ralay and placed in in the spot for the fuel pump relay -- they are the same relay.

Amy tried the key again and the fuel pump came to life! :victory:
She then tried the key in position 3 and the engine fired right up!! :wings:

I took it for a spin around the block and must have turned it off and on ten times and it worked every time!

Now, on to the power steering leak! :Mechanic:

 

[Martyn]

So, Amy fix your Land Rover.

 

[Brian McVickers]

Indeed, she is amazing!!

 

[Paladin]

Well there you go. Give thanks to the Rover Gods that this was simple.

 

[Brian McVickers]

Well there I go indeed!
Looks like I spoke too soon. @!#!&#@!!!

The truck shut off while sitting in the driveway!

Ok:
- Replaced the fuel pump relay
- Pump came on and engine started easily 10/10 times plus a five minute drive
- The engine started easily this morning on the fist try
- I let the truck sit in the driveway with the engine running for ten minutes
- The engine just stopped
- The engine will not restart and the fuel pump is not priming for the two seconds when the key is in position two.

It appears to me that the fuel pump relay that I installed last night has already gone bad.

?? -- What is causing the relays to go bad?

?? -- Should I be looking for a short or loose wire somewhere? Where?

?? -- Could blowing through relays be a sign of a failing fuel pump?

Thanks
Brian

 

[Paladin]

On many cars, the fuel pump won't cycle when the key is turned if there is already pressure in the rail. I don't know about the Disco specifically.

 

[Brian McVickers]

So based on that idea this would now be pointing to a different problem all together such as the CPS. - ?

 

[Paladin]

I wouldn't venture a guess to know until you know if you have pressure at the rail or not.

If you're really brave (or foolish) you can poke the shrader valve on the rail and see if fuel sprays out as a quick check.

 

[Brian McVickers]

So here is the latest:

I went back out this afternoon and turned the key - the engine fired right up and ran very nicely. While it was running I jumped up and down on the bumper and hung off the side to rock it back and forth, I was looking for some loose or exposed wire to short on something from the motion but nothing happened and the engine kept running. I then took a long wooden stick and poked at a bunch of wire harnesses, again looking to activate an existing short but nothing the engine kept running fine.

The engine idled nicely for 10 minutes

Then I got in the drivers seat and as soon as I put pressure on the fuel pedal the engine cut out. I barely got to rev the engine 300 rpm and it just turned off!

My thoughts are going back to a failing crank position sensor.

I tried to start the engine again and did not hear the fuel pump prime but based on the pressurized fuel rail theory that may be ok.

Anyone??

 

[Brian McVickers]

Update

Ok, here is more information to add to the brain trust!

I left the vehicle sit since yesterday afternoon when it ran for 10 minutes and then cut off with throttle input.

This morning, 30 degrees F outside, The engine started right away with the turn of the key. I let it idle with no throttle input. The engine cut off at 8 minutes.

So there is a consistency, when it starts it will run for 8-10 minutes before cutting off.

This says fuel starvation to me. But the question is if the fuel starvation is being caused by the Crank Position Sensor possibly failing and telling the fuel pump to turn off. Or, it could be the pump itself.

As always thoughts and ideas a welcome.