Victory_Overland
Explorer
Wait, What; you guys don't just ride around in dog sleds? Hallmark channel is full of ********!
Let's add chains to this convo if @Jwestpro doesn't mind; think this could learn us all from the daily use people out there!
Studded vs non-studded Nokian LT2/3 - calling fellow northerners & Canadians
- Thread starter Jwestpro
- Start date
Wait, What; you guys don't just ride around in dog sleds? Hallmark channel is full of ********!
Let's add chains to this convo if @Jwestpro doesn't mind; think this could learn us all from the daily use people out there!
Trikebubble
Adventurer
Umm, everyone up here has a dog canoe, eh.Wait, What; you guys don't just ride around in dog sleds? Hallmark channel is full of ****!
Let's add chains to this convo if @Jwestpro doesn't mind; think this could learn us all from the daily use people out there!
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Victory_Overland
Explorer
I knew it!
Jwestpro
Explorer
No offense meant, but, this makes no sense whatsoever. Why on earth would you spend money on the latest Nokian tire but then have crap studs put in them instead of getting what appears to be the best possible stud tech in their version? Anything you'd have put in there will posses all the worst qualities of studs with none of the new tech they've engineered. Plus. Colorado really isn't all that cold. I wouldn't bother with studs there. I mainly got to thinking of it because I'm from MN and my mom moved back so I'm traveling there and through Canada a lot more often now.
Today during a 5 hr round trip drive for nordic skiing in an AWD wagon on Nokian R2, I remembered how nice not having studs really is for wherever there isn't solid pack snow and ice.
Colin Hughes
Explorer
I was going to take a photo of the dog sled that is actually on my back porch, selling it as I no longer have my huskies, but drove home in a nasty storm last night in the dark and left again this morning in the dark. Not long now before the days start to get longer!Umm, everyone up here has a dog canoe, eh.
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Speedkills
Member
Ha, reminds me of the saying that whenever someone says "no offense intended" they mean to offend you
Why would I get studs in CO? As I said, I'm on the fence, but plenty of guys I wheel with say they are still far better than studless winter tires. In fact, 2 of the 3 I went snow bashing with yesterday said "do it" and one said "it's the difference between rock climbing in work boots vs rock climbing in climbing shoes". The one that said that yesterday had refrained from going with studs for the past 20 years but finally did it last winter and was floored as so many had told him there was little difference.
Why might I go with tire shop studs instead of Nokian studs? Because I can get tire shop studs soon and can't get Nokian studded soon and having them soon might be worth not getting "the best" when I go out and play in the snow every weekend.
Is it really so hard to consider alternative viewpoints/priorities/decision making frameworks? What makes you think that all studs that aren't Nokian factory studs are crap anyway? Were all studs crap before Nokian created their latest version?
What is the statement "Colorado isn't really all that cold." intended to support? If it's a reference to studies done on the effectiveness of studs vs temperature wouldn't that support studs being more effective since CO isn't that cold and studs are more effective when it isn't that cold? https://www.wsdot.wa.gov/research/reports/fullreports/551.1.pdf
billiebob
Well-known member
Trikebubble
Adventurer
I do recall driving the Coquihalla one winter a long, long time ago in complete black-out conditions. My passenger rolled his window down and we navigated quite the distance by distance from the concrete siderail, it was the only thing we could see.. We were young and stupid, so turning around wasn't really considered.
Jwestpro
Explorer
Ha, reminds me of the saying that whenever someone says "no offense intended" they mean to offend you
Why would I get studs in CO? As I said, I'm on the fence, but plenty of guys I wheel with say they are still far better than studless winter tires. In fact, 2 of the 3 I went snow bashing with yesterday said "do it" and one said "it's the difference between rock climbing in work boots vs rock climbing in climbing shoes". The one that said that yesterday had refrained from going with studs for the past 20 years but finally did it last winter and was floored as so many had told him there was little difference.
Why might I go with tire shop studs instead of Nokian studs? Because I can get tire shop studs soon and can't get Nokian studded soon and having them soon might be worth not getting "the best" when I go out and play in the snow every weekend.
Is it really so hard to consider alternative viewpoints/priorities/decision making frameworks? What makes you think that all studs that aren't Nokian factory studs are crap anyway? Were all studs crap before Nokian created their latest version?
What is the statement "Colorado isn't really all that cold." intended to support? If it's a reference to studies done on the effectiveness of studs vs temperature wouldn't that support studs being more effective since CO isn't that cold and studs are more effective when it isn't that cold? https://www.wsdot.wa.gov/research/reports/fullreports/551.1.pdf
I would choose an LT2 factory studded over having a shop studding an LT3 because yes, studding a tire is in my view "crap" when compared to them being molded into the tire by the industry leader. There is an irony in you wanting that slight margin of benefit while also willing to do it half-assed but with a new and potentially more expensive tire. Even more irony in that the type of playing in the snow you mention makes me think you would benefit even more than the highway driver from solidly embedded studs. Maybe I've read too much about post-studding problems but I figured you'd be the one to more fully utilize the better build.
I guess I should have been more clear. Co is not "that cold" to me means that you'd have frequent periods of thaw and thus non-frozen water and dry roads. The statement is to "support" the idea that you're in a region where the benefits of studs are less often realized in terms of miles/hours % of driving. That equation could of course change with factors such as having a specific play day only vehicle on studs, living at higher altitude or in a zone with less thaw cycles. The equivalent here would be Seattle vs eastern WA. Driving around this side on studs is idiotic even if going to the pass to ski each weekend because it results in 98% mileage being on non-frozen pavement and even the passes are usually clear even when frozen. However, if a vehicle were left at a home on the east side or a person lives there, it's mostly frozen and probably snow covered around 30% of the time. The night driving here can be tricky with the black ice that occurs often.
My guess is your use case is similar to here where studs are not really needed much where you are vs where you go. If you can set aside a vehicle to be on studs, it's a different scenario than someone who has to use one vehicle all the time for everything. The picture you paint of going on outings with your friends sounds like you'd enjoy the stud path, but then you could also ponder using a 4x4 chain then and have better snow use while not driving on it all the time. Studs don't seem like they're worth much in deeper snow play anyway especially compared to chains.
Next time I write "no offense meant" it will include, because the way I write a thing may sound offensive to someone for their own reasons but really I am asking to genuinely understand.
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Todd780
OverCamper
Had the best seafood bisque I've ever had there.....
Speedkills
Member
I'm at 8300' elevation, so there is snow on the ground a good period of time. I'm considering no studs and just using chains as well which is part of why the LT3's I am getting will be 32", vs the 34" tires I have on now, to have room to actually clear chains. I tried some of the Super Z8 cable style chains last weekend and wasn't a fan, they didn't stay tight to the tire and I ended up throwing one on a hill climb, at which point I was sick of hearing them ********** my fenderwells anyway so I just pulled them off and finished the trail without them. Chains are so effective off-road in the snow, but they make me worry so much that I think I don't have as much fun.
Jwestpro
Explorer
Yeah, I figured because I checked the weather on your town before I started talking ********
but I'm sure you will get more there than I would in Seattle, which is next to nothing due to the ocean. However, cross the range and it's more like true winter.Funny you're also using a 34 but I only put my set on for certain trips. They are the BFG km2 285/70-18 factory wheels no wheel spacer but I do have strut spacers.
I use the RUD 4x4 chain and while it isn't necessarily 'THE' only good chain for the purpose, my reading and suggested it was up to the task. I forget this moment but there's a guy at one reseller that will custom fit them to any tire if you will take the involved measurements. This is probably very good for certain tires as the numbers do not mean different brands will be the same. My 275/65-18 in BFG vs Michelin are crazy different with BFG being much shorter diameter and the sidewall being more square. This makes the Michelin M/S 2 a considerably larger overall volume in section shape.
I also noticed this while swapping the wagon tires from summer Pirelli? Cinturato P7 plus 245/45-18 to Nokian R2 same size, the Nokian was a lot shorter diameter. Bizarre.
It's funny that talking with you I'm now 99% on going non-studded but choosing a size to allow chains. I'll have to check some things to see if the 265/70-18 will work. Seems like it should if I can clear the km2 on same factory rim and offset but I will want more room to spare than with the tire. The other choice would be 275/65-18 but that width is wider than I want.
Speedkills
Member
Thanks for the tip. I'll check out the RUD chains and if you happen to recall the guy who does custom post his info. The cables I tried last weekend were no good because they were a little stretchy, which meant they moved around on my tire under torque. They also did an odd thing as they moved around where they bowed out away from my tire in the center and slapped the fenderwells, completely negating any advantage they were supposed to have in being low profile.
Jwestpro
Explorer
It's Chain Stop supplier. Sending you a PM w more details.
If other people are interested, I could contact them and ask if ok to post the email publicly. For all I know the guy isn't even there anymore.
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Jwestpro
Explorer
Sounds like the 'nature' of a cable to do it's best to straighten out if it can, thus it's own tension to bow out. A loose enough chain could fling itself out with enough wheel spin but I don't see it being much after how tight mine were upon test fitting to 3 different tires.