TD5 or 300TDI into a NAS D2?

[R_Lefebvre]

Well, looks like I need a new auto transmission. It died yesterday. Probably total loss, but I won't know for sure yet. So far I've seen a price of $950 for a replacement used trans.

But, I might just take the opportunity to go ahead and make a swap to a diesel/manual. That's basically what I planned if something like this happened. Sell off the V8 before it dies too (as I fear most will due to the cylinder liner issues). I just don't see the point of putting another V8 transmission in it at this point.

Land Rover Import in BC lists 300TDI engines for I think $3400, plus $1000 or so for the transmission. Or $5400/1500 for rebuilt units. That includes a rad, intercooler and some ancilliaries. The 300TDI is obviously simple and robust, and no ECU to worry about wiring up. But I don't know how the BCU on my truck would react to having an engine and trans-ectomy. Will it just freak out and not let the power windows work? SLABS?

The TD5 is a factory fitment for the D2, thus should be more plug-and-play if you get all the right parts. It also makes more power, especially with tuning, and is smoother and quieter. I like the characteristics of this engine better for my intended use of the truck. Daily Driver, road trips, towing, and some trail runs but I'm not looking for the ultimate in simplicity for that. If I have a manual trans and liners that won't slip, I'll be happy.

So... thoughts?

 

[94Discovery]

i was thinking the same but 4500$ is a little too much for me ,it is been a while i am researching an alternative it is the Mercedes bens 300sd 3.0 turbo diesel ,5 cylinder (om617a)and same power as the 300tdi .
you buy and old 300sd and use everything in the engine compartment i found one less than 1000cad ,now the only problem is mating it to a manual trans R380 need adapter and flywheel ,
the bellhousing adapter is fairly easy to fab but the flywheel is the hard part.
everything could be done but at what price ?
good luck .
go 300tdi less electronics .

 

[jrose609]

Rob, sorry to hear about the tranny.

If you do a TD5, I'd buy a whole truck and have the entire front clip in with EVERYTHING! Doug Shipman with Ships Mechanical in Portland, ORegon has been trying to install a Td5 into a Defender for almost a year. The electronics in the Td5 are very sophisticated compared to the 300, and Doug is having a hard time getting the transmission to talk to the motor through the ECU.

I have one 300tdi in my D1, and I just bought an RRC with a 300. I'm addicted. The simplicity and reliability are 2nd to none.

Then again, Keith at Rovertracks is a great resource. He could probably help you.

I don't know man, after having a V8 with a computer and now having the diesel, I will choose this 300tdi everytime. You're right about power. There isn't as much power with the 300. It isn't like the typical American turbo diesel..........but a fully modified Disco is getting 22mpg. The stock RRC is getting 24.5.

Good luck buddy. A diesel conversion is a big commitment.

Jason

ps-- call Doug at Desert Marine in Maine. He goes by Roving Beetle on Dweb. Super nice guy. He did the d2 diesel conversion a couple of years ago.

 

[Viggen]

i was thinking the same but 4500$ is a little too much for me ,it is been a while i am researching an alternative it is the Mercedes bens 300sd 3.0 turbo diesel ,5 cylinder (om617a)and same power as the 300tdi .
you buy and old 300sd and use everything in the engine compartment i found one less than 1000cad ,now the only problem is mating it to a manual trans R380 need adapter and flywheel ,
the bellhousing adapter is fairly easy to fab but the flywheel is the hard part.
everything could be done but at what price ?
good luck .
go 300tdi less electronics .

The catch there is whether or not you have testing in your area. I know that in Va, you can do a diesel swap and then drive it to the DMV to prove its a diesel and youll be fine. Power of the OM617 is something like 120 hp/ 200 tq which isnt too bad. 4x4 Labs has a kit out to allow for hooking up a Gm trans to the OM and (I think) there is an adapter to run the transfer case on a GM trans available too. Its an intriguing idea that can be done for not a lot of money. My question is what are you going to do about the dash? Like gauges, etc...

 

[timmy!!!!!!!]

Isn't there some clearance issues running a mercedes diesel motor in coil sprung rovers?

 

[94Discovery]

The catch there is whether or not you have testing in your area.
I know that in Va, you can do a diesel swap and then drive it to the DMV to prove its a diesel and youll be fine. Power of the OM617 is something like 120 hp/ 200 tq which isnt too bad. 4x4 Labs has a kit out to allow for hooking up a Gm trans to the OM and (I think) there is an adapter to run the transfer case on a GM trans available too.
Its an intriguing idea that can be done for not a lot of money. My question is what are you going to do about the dash? Like gauges, etc...

in quebec there is no testing so it is doable from the leagale aspect .
at first i wanted the gm trans but there is no adapter to the lt230 tc so i f i go with an all American tranny and tc i will loose the full time 4wheel which is one of the most important thing in land rover ,so i decided to stay with the r380 and lt230 less problems and less money ,the key is to make a conversion as clever as possible in order to save money there is no point spending 10000 to change it to diesel you will not get your money back better buy a new truck .
rpm is from the alternator
temperature gauge is from the sensor so no problem adapting it to the mb engine
gas gauge is the same
speedo should be compatible with the 5speed disco .
:drool::sombrero:

 

[94Discovery]

Isn't there some clearance issues running a mercedes diesel motor in coil sprung rovers?

i heard about that also i think the oil pan can be modified to accommodate the
front axle .
for sure you have to use the 300tdi coil spring .
one thing i searched about the weight of the om617a it says it was 200 kg the same as a v8 but not sure on the mb side

 

[Root Moose]

I know close to zero about those engines but the engineering mind has read your post and had the following thoughts...

First, really want a diesel? What about sticking with a gas engine? Are the dropped liners and stuff that are complaints about the Rover engine overstated or reality? Does a rebuilt Rover engine solve those problems?

If you go the 300TDI route it seems there are a lot of unknowns with respect to getting the electronics between the chassis and the engine to work. For that amount of effort and unknowns maybe it makes sense to look at another brand engine; modern Chev LS V8? People get excited about going off-brand but the reality is the tires don't care where the lb-ft are coming from.

Someone said there was no adapter for the GM transmission to a LT230. I thought either AA or Mark's had that covered? I'm pretty sure there is an adapter for the 700R4/4L60E to LT230. Has GM or Land Rover changed their patterns since that adapter was made?

If you really want to go diesel, I'd be inclined to go with whatever was factory available in your machine (TD5). We both have small kids that are growing fast. I know I don't want to miss it. You don't need to spend time in the garage breaking new ground futzing with minutiae while you miss your kids growing up.

For the difference in the cost of fuel between gas and diesel and the relative difference in mileage you'd have to drive the vehicle for a dozen or more years to get the money back. To me diesel only makes sense at vehicle purchase time. Do some numbers with a spreadsheet and see where it leads. Now, if you just love diesels and that is really what you want then fill your boots. Just think though, a 300hp+ gas LS engine would make your truck almost sporty. It might even be as fast as an XJ.

Just some thoughts.

 

[R_Lefebvre]

I do have to worry about emissions legality. So far I know that I can register it as a "Hot Rod" but it also says that the new engine must have as good or better emissions controls as the original. I don't know how that applies to diesel conversion.

A couple alternative engine swaps were suggested, but I'm really not that interested in futzing around with that type of thing right now. Prefer to keep everything factory as much as possible.

If you do a TD5, I'd buy a whole truck and have the entire front clip in with EVERYTHING! Doug Shipman with Ships Mechanical in Portland, ORegon has been trying to install a Td5 into a Defender for almost a year. The electronics in the Td5 are very sophisticated compared to the 300, and Doug is having a hard time getting the transmission to talk to the motor through the ECU.

That's the prefered route. I just don't know how much it would take to get the whole truck here. If it's like $10k, vs. $5k for a 300TDI, and the TDI can be made to work... the decision seems pretty easy. I do have to consider however, if I could recoup any cost by parting out the rest of the car. Or also sale of my functioning V8.

First, really want a diesel? What about sticking with a gas engine? Are the dropped liners and stuff that are complaints about the Rover engine overstated or reality? Does a rebuilt Rover engine solve those problems?

I'd be just as happy putting a GT25R turbo on a 2.5L Ford Duratec mated to a manual trans... but I'm SURE the purists would literally lynch me. Show up at my house with pitch forks and torches.

The fuel milage of the diesel is very attractive to me, as stupid as it is to say that. I know it won't really ever work out, but some flaw in my thinking... it just works for me. Not only that, but the RANGE offered by a diesel change is a big deal. I don't know how I could do the Route du Nord in my truck unless I brought a trailer full of jerrycans.

Are the dropped liners and stuff that are complaints about the Rover engine overstated or reality?

It's becoming apparent to me that it's just as real as front driveshaft failures.

 

[dcwhybrew]

I looked in to this about 4 years ago. Jim Pendleton (goes by Pendy) in Kansas has been doing these TD5 conversions I believe. Look him on on Pirate4x4.com or Discoweb.org. Paul Schram (PTSchram) on both sites should be able to direct you to him as well.

 

[Viggen]

I dont know what its like for you but here in Va, a diesel swap just needs to be verified by DEQ and youre emissions exempt due to being diesel powered. I completely agree with the range aspect of a diesel motor. I want a diesel powered rig and want one because the mileage is higher which brings about an increase in range on the same amount of fuel.

Why not do a Duratec? They are GREAT motors and can deliver some serious power with some really nice Cosworth bits available. Problem with that plan is that the power is going to come at some really high revs. With a diesel, you get them in the lower range which, I think, is more useful. Im over the days of having to rev the piss out of the truck to get over things and hit the sweet spot.

 

[Root Moose]

I do have to worry about emissions legality. So far I know that I can register it as a "Hot Rod" but it also says that the new engine must have as good or better emissions controls as the original. I don't know how that applies to diesel conversion.

IIRC, in Ontario for diesel you only have to pass a rudimentary idle test. It can't be belching black at idle, that is all. I may have that muddled. I have read about diesel swaps a few times but not being terribly interested I didn't retain the details.

I know it won't really ever work out, but some flaw in my thinking... it just works for me. Not only that, but the RANGE offered by a diesel change is a big deal. I don't know how I could do the Route du Nord in my truck unless I brought a trailer full of jerrycans.

Yes, diesel range is attractive. That and it practically doesn't burn any fuel at idle - which can be important in the bush. For me the negatives still out weigh the positives (hate the smell and on-road performance). It's all about what floats your boat.

It's becoming apparent to me that it's just as real as front driveshaft failures.

Unfortunate. Drill some holes in the block through to the liners and drive in some Robertson head wood screws. That'll keep them from dropping.

 

[R_Lefebvre]

Why not do a Duratec? They are GREAT motors and can deliver some serious power with some really nice Cosworth bits available. Problem with that plan is that the power is going to come at some really high revs. With a diesel, you get them in the lower range which, I think, is more useful. Im over the days of having to rev the piss out of the truck to get over things and hit the sweet spot.

The reason would mainly be the trouble mating it to the rest of the powertrain. What do you consider higher revs. I've got a GT25R on my 2.0L Zetec, and it's at full boost at 2800 rpm. A 2.5L would probably light the wick much closer to 2000. So, not quite diesel territory, but compares pretty favorable to a V8. Then massive weight savings, cast in liners, and probably better efficiency. But yeah, mating it the powertrain, and those pitchforks...

IIRC, in Ontario for diesel you only have to pass a rudimentary idle test. It can't be belching black at idle, that is all. I may have that muddled. I have read about diesel swaps a few times but not being terribly interested I didn't retain the details.

Yeah, definitely need to look into this.

It just seems to me like this V8 is a dead end, and now I need a new trans. Converting to diesel would be just as hard as any other engine swap, and has some advantages to me. I don't think I'd mind the performance, I drive the truck pretty slow anyway. Though I do like the TD5 because it can be tuned to much higher power.

 

[michaels]

IRC, Doug didn't have any trouble getting the ECUs to "talk" to one another with no engine to "read" unput from. i drove it and it didn't have any dash lights on or anything. it was a nice truck to drive too. however, it'd be better if you just got in contact with him rather than believing hearsay.

 

[jrose609]

IRC, Doug didn't have any trouble getting the ECUs to "talk" to one another with no engine to "read" unput from. i drove it and it didn't have any dash lights on or anything. it was a nice truck to drive too. however, it'd be better if you just got in contact with him rather than believing hearsay.

Sorry. Should have been more clear. the Doug I was talking about was Doug Shipman is putting a TD5 into a Defender. He's in Portland, OR.

Doug (aka Roving Beetle) is a whole other "Doug."