TD5 or 300TDI into a NAS D2?

[ntsqd]

Back in the early days of smog inspection here in the Nanny State, well before just about anywhere else in NA, it was quite common for someone to swap in an earlier engine "to get rid of all of that smog crap!" There were a LOT of 375 HP 327's running around in much later cars in those days, probably more than GM actually ever built. Which gave rise to the KA state law requiring that the engine being swapped in be of at least the same vintage as the vehicle if not newer.

This is stringently applied to gasoline swaps here. Diesel swaps are much more murky, but I expect that to change. That they are now emissions testing diesels built after some model year is evidence that what used to be off their radar is starting to be seen.

As goes KA, so will eventually go the U.S. Don't have to like it, but the supporting evidence is too great.
How that might affect what Canada does isn't my place to even guess.

 

[R_Lefebvre]

One thing that surprised me in my research, it said that the number 1 swap in Ontario was gas for gas. Not surprising. But number two, was diesel for gas. Why would anybody do that? Gas for diesel wasn't even on the radar. Must be because of the cost of diesel engines. Somebody with a clapped out old diesel pickup truck with a blown engine. Much cheaper to put a gas in than a diesel.

 

[Root Moose]

Because the GM 6.2/6.5 generally sucks if you don't have the inclination to get really "involved" with them.

I know of guys that have gone through two or three GM diesel engines to ultimately throw in the towel and run a 350/454.

For the record, I have to wonder about a 2.5 liter diesel engine going into a pig (I mean that in the best possible way) of a truck like a Land Rover. Turbo or not I'm wondering if you are going to have to row the crap out of the gear box to keep up with traffic on four lane highways. It's a good thing we don't have any real elevation changes in this part of Ontario.

 

[bobtail4x4]

You need to try one.

 

[michaelgroves]

btw the wifes td5 gets 30+ mpg and that on a hard driven chipped engine.

UK mpg, of course! Equates to 25mpUSg. Pretty good, but most people don't do that well, looking at the various forums. I got more like 24-26 (about 21 US) overall consumption on mine, which is still ok. My Defender 130 gets 21 (17 US!) no matter how I drive it, or what load it has, but I don't know why it's so bad.

didnt see it in the thread, but the TD5 is not bolt in, the frame is different in the front to hold it as far as I have seen. 300tdi and 200tdi should bolt in.

The D2 was never offered with a 300Tdi, so I really doubt it's bolt-in.

For the record, I have to wonder about a 2.5 liter diesel engine going into a pig (I mean that in the best possible way) of a truck like a Land Rover. Turbo or not I'm wondering if you are going to have to row the crap out of the gear box to keep up with traffic on four lane highways. It's a good thing we don't have any real elevation changes in this part of Ontario.

While the TD5 Discovery is no sports car, it's not too bad - it'll do just under 100mph if you have to (and why would you?), and can get from 0 to 60 in somewhere under 15 secs (which is only slow if you're really trying to pull off faster than everyone else). It'll even tow a big trailer satisfactorily - generally, it will tow any given weight of trailer about as fast as would be reasonably safe, IMO. Other than up steep hills, of course.

Are you going to sometimes wish you had more power, yes. Will it happen often, probably not.

Putting things in perspective, the little 4-cylinder 300Tdi was a little underpowered for my 6x6 Defender, with an all-up weight a shade under 5000kg. But adequate to travel at 80-100km/h. It's all about power-to-weight, your driving style, and your expectations.



I am currently trying to decide on a cheap-ish replacement for my old BMW 525TDS (fantastic diesel!), between a 300Tdi D1 or a TD5 D2... I am leaning towards the 300Tdi because it's cheaper to buy and cheaper to run, and simpler to fix. On the other hand, it's got noticeably less power, can't be so easily tuned, is not as refined (the engine and the whole car), and is several years older. Early vehicles of either type are not on my short list. If I were you, though, Rob, I'd plumb for a late model TD5 in preference to a 300Tdi if you can get a whole D2 front end.

Regarding the idea that you might want to look outside for non-LR engines and boxes... of course you should consider the idea. But presumably the reason you wanted (and still want) the LR is because you like it. Nothing wrong with preferring to keep it a Land Rover hybrid!

 

[R_Lefebvre]

For the record, I have to wonder about a 2.5 liter diesel engine going into a pig (I mean that in the best possible way) of a truck like a Land Rover. Turbo or not I'm wondering if you are going to have to row the crap out of the gear box to keep up with traffic on four lane highways. It's a good thing we don't have any real elevation changes in this part of Ontario.

How much do you think a Discovery weighs? 4600lbs, surprisingly is the published curb weight. That's not heavy at all. That's mid-size-crossover territory.

I did extensive driving in a 2007 110 Puma prototype, which has about the same horsepower. Yes, it's slow, but I had no problem merging onto the 400. You just need to get on it. I'm not sure how much a 110 weighs, but it's got to be more than a Disco. And don't forget, the TD5 can be tuned up to 200hp, I'm currently only making 217. A 4.0L Disco makes 190.

It'll even tow a big trailer satisfactorily - generally, it will tow any given weight of trailer about as fast as would be reasonably safe, IMO. Other than up steep hills, of course.

That's part of the problem. People here tend to tow their trailers crazy fast. That's why you hear people complaining about power so much.

 

[antisoshal]

So reading the whole thread I have some questions...

I as well am looking to embark on a conversion of a late model D2 to TD5 diesel. From a longevity standpoint and from a philosophical viewpoint, I simply can't in good conscience drive a vehicle regularly that gets 12mpg. After reading the whole thread through I think I'm missing some info and want to clarify a couple of questions:

If you look on motors.ebay.co.uk you can find at LEAST 70 late model D2 TD5 Diesels. This tells me that a bolt in pair of engine and trans that allows full ABS and other ECU function MUST exist in some capacity. I understand you would need to rework the wiring harness to convert from RHD to LHD and move some mounts and such. Nothing like that should be insurmountable. Buying this pair seems like the path of least resistance, correct?

Money for me won't be an object within reason. My goal is to create the vehicle I want that no one currently makes for sale in the USA. If Jeep offered a 4dr wrangler with a diesel option, I would consider it, but in the end I think the price would be the same or more.

I plan to begin the project later this year when finances allow, so I'm doing my research now. This isn't a pipe dream, and unless it proves insurmountable, I WILL accomplish this. I plan to document as much of it as possible, but I will not be doing the work personally. I have contacted The Rover Shop in chicago and they are willing to embark on the process, but indicated they felt using a D2 would be almost impossible without gutting all the electronics and even the ABS. I would like to maintain as many of the features of the D2 as possible, in particular the ABS and stability control, so I'm trying to find an avenue by which this can be worked out.

Can anyone explain to me why importing an engine/trans set and wiring harness, splicing the harness and bolting them in with a new set of instruments for Diesel WOULDN'T work?

 

[antisoshal]

More info

according to THIS link

http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/import/elig123109.pdf

The 2000 model year Discovery is allowed for import as is, with NO CHANGES. Not sure why only the model year 2000, but there are 81 of them for sale on Ebay.co.uk right now.

I know its a fairly "trivial" matter for importers to change the model year of paperwork on similar cars, so its seems this would be a fairly reliable way to get a whole RHD vehicle into the states and convert to LHD if desired?

Ford apparently applied to have ALL Discovery 2 models declared legal for import with this document :

http://www.regulations.gov/search/R...552910&disposition=attachment&contentType=pdf

This document appears to say that ALL Discovery 2 models have been granted non-conformity exemption:

http://govpulse.us/entries/2008/10/...for-decision-of-inconsequential-noncompliance

Howevr, the NTSHA site doesnt seem to reflect that as of now.

 

[R_Lefebvre]

There's no reason it wouldn't work. And I'd question paying money to somebody who doesn't understand how it would work. The V8 and TD5 were both assembled on the same assembly line, using a selection of parts, most of which are interchangable. Doing the swap is simply a matter getting the right parts. ALL the right parts. Now that's the key here.

From what I found, the best way to do this, is simply to bring in an entire front clip. You don't just need the engine and transmission, you also need the wiring harnesses and ECU's. You need the TD5 ECU, and then you also need the matching BCU, because the two are married by VIN number and swap security codes before they allow an engine start. Then, if the truck you got the BCU from had the factory alarm, you need to install that too. The BCU will talk to the alarm computer before allowing a start, and the alarm obviously needs to be happy. You cannot reprogram an alarmed BCU into a non-alarmed configuration.

Then you also need all your ancilliaries. Cooling, fuel, exhaust, motor mounts, etc.

The only reason I didn't proceed with it is I couldn't find a vendor who could deliver a front clip to me, in the time I spent looking.

 

[Maryland 110]

My friend Robert Davis in Chesapeake Virginia has made up a kit to transplant the Benz engine into a truck with 4hp22 trans. The kit includes an adapter plate, new thicker flex plate,different torque converter, different trans govenor, as well as an oil pan that clears the rover front axle etc.
Robert can be reached @ RdavisinVa@yahoo.com
He's a bit of an excentric character like me. No idea what he wants for one of these kits but there's quite a bit involved and he has a machine shop make them. If you talk to him long he'll have you driving for free on veg.....he's still working on me.

 

[Maryland 110]

There's no reason it wouldn't work. And I'd question paying money to somebody who doesn't understand how it would work. The V8 and TD5 were both assembled on the same assembly line, using a selection of parts, most of which are interchangable. Doing the swap is simply a matter getting the right parts. ALL the right parts. Now that's the key here.

From what I found, the best way to do this, is simply to bring in an entire front clip. You don't just need the engine and transmission, you also need the wiring harnesses and ECU's. You need the TD5 ECU, and then you also need the matching BCU, because the two are married by VIN number and swap security codes before they allow an engine start. Then, if the truck you got the BCU from had the factory alarm, you need to install that too. The BCU will talk to the alarm computer before allowing a start, and the alarm obviously needs to be happy. You cannot reprogram an alarmed BCU into a non-alarmed configuration.

Having played with nanocom I'm pretty sure you can re-write/overide all the codes. I used a NANOCOM on a Td5 defender double cab that wouldn't run because the alarm and imobilizer were not talking to each other and the truck wouldn't start. With a Nanocom you can see every code- including the coding for each individual injector. In the end my problem boiled down to dead batterys on the AS10 alarm module's circuit board. Only took me days to figure that out and fix it. Neat stuff. Keith @ Rovertracks was instrumental in that repair going well.

 

[R_Lefebvre]

according to THIS link

http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/import/elig123109.pdf

The 2000 model year Discovery is allowed for import as is, with NO CHANGES. Not sure why only the model year 2000, but there are 81 of them for sale on Ebay.co.uk right now.

I know its a fairly "trivial" matter for importers to change the model year of paperwork on similar cars, so its seems this would be a fairly reliable way to get a whole RHD vehicle into the states and convert to LHD if desired?

Ford apparently applied to have ALL Discovery 2 models declared legal for import with this document :

http://www.regulations.gov/search/R...552910&disposition=attachment&contentType=pdf

This document appears to say that ALL Discovery 2 models have been granted non-conformity exemption:

http://govpulse.us/entries/2008/10/...for-decision-of-inconsequential-noncompliance

Howevr, the NTSHA site doesnt seem to reflect that as of now.

Very interesting!

My only guess is somebody really wanted to import a 2000 D2, and did the paperwork to petition the NHTSA. It shows a VSP number, meaning it was done by a manufacturer or registered importer. They basically proved it was substantially the same as a USDM D2?

 

[antisoshal]

There's no reason it wouldn't work. And I'd question paying money to somebody who doesn't understand how it would work. The V8 and TD5 were both assembled on the same assembly line, using a selection of parts, most of which are interchangable. Doing the swap is simply a matter getting the right parts. ALL the right parts. Now that's the key here.

From what I found, the best way to do this, is simply to bring in an entire front clip. You don't just need the engine and transmission, you also need the wiring harnesses and ECU's. You need the TD5 ECU, and then you also need the matching BCU, because the two are married by VIN number and swap security codes before they allow an engine start. Then, if the truck you got the BCU from had the factory alarm, you need to install that too. The BCU will talk to the alarm computer before allowing a start, and the alarm obviously needs to be happy. You cannot reprogram an alarmed BCU into a non-alarmed configuration.

Then you also need all your ancilliaries. Cooling, fuel, exhaust, motor mounts, etc.

The only reason I didn't proceed with it is I couldn't find a vendor who could deliver a front clip to me, in the time I spent looking.

Well, I don't think they questioned it, they simply hadn't done one or looked into I suspect. They have done 300 swaps and their comments were based on knowing what WOULDN'T still work if I put a 300 in a D2. I will pose the idea and see what they think. It seems odd that you couldn't get anyone to ship over a chopped front. Did you try the standard importers of whole land rovers like Global and LandRoverImport? LandRoverImport says they do RHD to LHD conversions and imports to the USA, so I might just ask if they can make the whole damn thing for me and import it. In the end, while expensive, it's probably the easiest way.

 

[R_Lefebvre]

Actually, I did try talking to Land Rover Import, but was frustrated in my attempts to actually communicate with the guy. It might have worked, but I gave up. It was a perpetual game of phone tag. He never answered when I called. I think he returned my message once or twice but... we just couldn't seem to hook up. I just didn't want to spend that much money with a guy that I couldn't get on the phone. Not trying to knock him but... it is what it is.

I remember also looking into Global, but can't remember why that didn't work out. I also tried Land Rover Salvage in Ontario, and... the guy in Quebec... wasn't comfortable with any of them.

In the end, cost was a factor as well. I didn't want to do it with junkyard parts, and would prefer to use a rebuilt engine which I just didn't have the money for. When I contacted Ashcroft Transmission and Lucky 8, they both said "Yes I can" when queried for purchase of all new parts for the manual transmission swap, and both delivered exactly what was promissed, on time and under budget.

 

[antisoshal]

For those looking to do the TD5 into a DicoveryII, Jim Pendleton of Kansa can and has done this job. He can be found in about 15 seconds using google, so I wont post any direct contact info here. He quoted me an entirely realistic and reasonable guestimate of "22K for parts and labor, probably", and says he has most of the required parts on hand.

That said, I spent the weekend thinking about what I wanted out of a siesel engine, and a Discovery in general, and decided in the big picture, something less technological and more robust like a 300TDI was a better choice. I asked myself why I was set on preserving things like ABS and stability control which I grew up not even knowing about let alone needing. I was reading up on running SVO and blends in engines, and the particulars of the TD5 apparently don't lend themselves to long term use in that application. In the matter of a few days, this has turned from a high tech project to more of a survivalist project, in that I realized my final goal is to make a vehicle that will not require expensive electronics specialized repairs in the future, and be capable of running on a variety of fuels available.

I have read various opinions that the 300TDI is a little under powered for a DII, so if anyone has suggestions on a durable and commonly available powerplant that would work in a DII, I'm all ears. Brutal simplicity over high tech gadgetry is preferred at this point. Turbos and intercoolers are as high tech as I'd like to get on this.