Tell me what to buy...up to $60k

[vtsoundman]

Well - the time has finally come - it is time to move on from my beloved Jeep JKU Rubicon...there I said it.

Our family is growing and our needs are changing. We are 4 - my wife and I, a 9 mo, and a 90# St Bernard mix. We are planning on adding 2 more - another kid and another big dog. The Jeep JKU isn't going to cut it...


Questions
1. What to buy?
2. Who has the best 4x4 van system for our usage profile? Ujoint, Agile or stock (Chevy AWD/Sprinter)
3. Realistic build time from stock van? (Need a vehicle for trip in Dec -> CA to ME & back)
4. What van years & makes should I avoid?
5. Best floor plan for 2 kids in car seats?

Looking for an Adventure Van with 4x4 with a spend of up to $60k all in. Can increase budget to buy Sprinter if I am missing something...but right now, seems like Ford is better platform for us.


Trip Profiles
Profile 1: Long road trips – Whole lotta pavement
CA to ME and back, CA to AK, or CA to Canada
Can be anytime of year - usually winter from CA to ME
Sleep in vehicle (eat inside depending on weather)
We are planning an Alaskan trip next year – so lots of pavement + off pavement
Duration: Weeks

Profile 2: Solo Trips + Dogs
Just me & the dogs
Dispersed Camping & Fishing
2-6 days
Softroad, Offroad, Backwoods, Moderately Technical Trails, Desert & Mountain Camping
Any time of year, any weather
May just take the jeep for ultra technical trips


Profile 3: Family Camping Trips
Dispersed Camping, some camping in FS campgrounds
2-5 days
Western Half of US
Softroads/Offroad/mild technical trails
Mostly summer camping

Min Vehicle Requirements
4x4 + 4Lo
Long Range (Can equip with aux tank, prefer no Jerry Cans)
Ability to strap in car seats
Space to sleep (2 adults, 2 small kids -> eventually move them into tent)
Place to eat
Aux Heating
Batteries + Solar + Small gen (if necessary)
Tow up to 5k lbs over long distances (nothing planned at the moment)

Strong Preferences
Rear Locker Capable
No Jerry Cans
Max of 35" tire -
Store as much inside as possible (mtn bikes, hiking gear, etc)
20-24" fiberglass roof kit - the 20" looks better, but 24" would be nice inside.
Avoid roof racks/crap on the roof

No Preference…yet
Diesel vs Gas (like the fuel economy & torque of diesel, but concerned about add'l costs of diesel)
Appearance & Make

Not Sure Yet
Extended Body vs Regular Body
In the scheme of things, extended body would be ideal for the additional space. But as with most things, if it is hard to use, it won't be used much. We live in the crowded North Bay of San Francisco on a very narrow (single lane) street with limited parking - and maneuvering a large vehicle can be difficult. Also, I wonder how much of an issue lifted EB vans are offroad. Leaning towards EB with a high roof.

4” vs 6” lift
Prefer to keep the vehicle lower as we do so much pavement driving
Seems like smaller lift = less issues.
Will be likely keeping the Jeep as my DD + solo vehicle

Initial Conclusions
Based on research & reading, looks like I should:
1. Data suggests Extended Body E350 w/ V10
2. Agile Offroad Kit
3. 20" High Roof kit - I'm 6' and would like to stand up
4. Use bunks in the high roof for kid sleeping
5. No Nissans (no 4Lo)
6. Sprinter vs Ford : Undecided
- leaning towards Ford due to perceived lower maintenance costs & availability
- Sprinter has better snow/ice/hwy 4x4 system
- Sprinter has better vertical space
- Ford kits have better offroad 4x4 system
- Ford has much better aftermarket suppport
7. Chevy AWD - No? - doesn't seem like any 4Lo options out there.
8. SMB pop top - leaning towards no. Trips in winter/snow/ice, loss of ceiling height unless up
9. Single rear wheel (better offroad, better in snow, not heavy enough)
10. Looking at the SMB EB50/51 as a floor plan template...or short bench seat behind driver.

 

[Finatic Angler]

Interesting. I will be in a similar position in 6 months or so. I love my rubicon but it is too small of a vehicle for what I need it for.

Look forward to the outcome of this thread.

 

[brianjwilson]

Ill give a small bit of input now. Maybe more when my 2 year old is napping or something. We had a JKRU with Ursa Minor top. Had the first kid, went to a Tacoma and four wheel camper. Loved it. Had another kid on the way and it got really small!

For many of the reasons you posted, we were looking for an extended body late model ford V10 to install a ujoint 6" kit and pop top.

We sold the tacoma and camper, and spent 4-6 months searching nationwide for a clean, fairly low mileage V10. They are hard to find and sell very quick it seems. BUT I was picky, only wanted an extended body, barn doors, cargo van, white or silver, 09+, 50k miles or less etc. I finally settled because I was tired of waiting, found a 2011 silver cargo van with 44k miles and a sliding door. It was in Florida so I flew and drove it 3200 miles home, with a stop to visit Chris at Ujoint. Ordered a 6" kit from him, 4.56 gears, ARB, RSC upgrade, bumpers etc. The wait is around 8 weeks, apparently mostly due to waiting for springs. 6" allows for a track bar, cross over steering etc and 35s.

A few comments about the van, get the v10 if you can. So much better to drive than the v8. And the transmission is so much better (5r110). It is also much easier (read cheaper) to bolt a transfer case to. A tune from 5 star tuning makes the drivetrain feel much stronger too. If you find a van with RSC, you'll have to spend more on an axle. And you'll be stuck with the semi float 60 out back with wheel adapters.

I'll be the odd ball and recommend against the 50 style floor plan. We rented an eb50 and it was great while camping. BUT the kids are so far back when traveling. My wife rode with them but we had to yell to communicate at all. The biggest pain is having to remove the car seats, and even worse was storing them to make the lower bed. SO I went with extended body, and I'm installing four captain chairs up front (kids are 2 yo and 5 mo). This way everyone has dedicated seats for travel, no shuffling car seats, and the kids can't touch each other. Trust me this is a good thing!

I THINK we will eventually bud a dinette behind the captains chairs that makes into a bed (roughly 48x70" when made), and cabinets in back with a fridge, microwave, sink, furnace and water heater. I would like the dinette/bed out back but it limits the recline angle on the captains chairs.

The sprinter wasn't more than a short discussion. I wanted a more capable platform for offroad, and a more reliable drivetrain.

Also check out MGmetalworks 4x4 brackets for the e series vans. Grab a front axle from a late model super duty and essentially bolt it up with his kit, add some rear springs etc.

 

[dazdconfsd]

Why consider a Sprinter, but not a Quadvan converted Transit?

 

[4x4pair]

I have an EB E350 with the 7.3 and Agile conversion. The extra room of the EB is well worth the departure angle tradeoff and the Agile kit is very smooth off-road (and their shop is pretty close to you assuming you're in CA).

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

 

[tgreening]

I think with 2 adults, 2 kids, and 2 large dogs, just about any van conversion you buy is going to get very small very fast.

 

[vtsoundman]

Ill give a small bit of input now. Maybe more when my 2 year old is napping or something. We had a JKRU with Ursa Minor top. Had the first kid, went to a Tacoma and four wheel camper. Loved it. Had another kid on the way and it got really small!

For many of the reasons you posted, we were looking for an extended body late model ford V10 to install a ujoint 6" kit and pop top.

We sold the tacoma and camper, and spent 4-6 months searching nationwide for a clean, fairly low mileage V10. They are hard to find and sell very quick it seems. BUT I was picky, only wanted an extended body, barn doors, cargo van, white or silver, 09+, 50k miles or less etc. I finally settled because I was tired of waiting, found a 2011 silver cargo van with 44k miles and a sliding door. It was in Florida so I flew and drove it 3200 miles home, with a stop to visit Chris at Ujoint. Ordered a 6" kit from him, 4.56 gears, ARB, RSC upgrade, bumpers etc. The wait is around 8 weeks, apparently mostly due to waiting for springs. 6" allows for a track bar, cross over steering etc and 35s.

A few comments about the van, get the v10 if you can. So much better to drive than the v8. And the transmission is so much better (5r110). It is also much easier (read cheaper) to bolt a transfer case to. A tune from 5 star tuning makes the drivetrain feel much stronger too. If you find a van with RSC, you'll have to spend more on an axle. And you'll be stuck with the semi float 60 out back with wheel adapters.

I'll be the odd ball and recommend against the 50 style floor plan. We rented an eb50 and it was great while camping. BUT the kids are so far back when traveling. My wife rode with them but we had to yell to communicate at all. The biggest pain is having to remove the car seats, and even worse was storing them to make the lower bed. SO I went with extended body, and I'm installing four captain chairs up front (kids are 2 yo and 5 mo). This way everyone has dedicated seats for travel, no shuffling car seats, and the kids can't touch each other. Trust me this is a good thing!

I THINK we will eventually bud a dinette behind the captains chairs that makes into a bed (roughly 48x70" when made), and cabinets in back with a fridge, microwave, sink, furnace and water heater. I would like the dinette/bed out back but it limits the recline angle on the captains chairs.

The sprinter wasn't more than a short discussion. I wanted a more capable platform for offroad, and a more reliable drivetrain.

Also check out MGmetalworks 4x4 brackets for the e series vans. Grab a front axle from a late model super duty and essentially bolt it up with his kit, add some rear springs etc.

It seems you and my wife were communicating via some sort of weird telepathy today......on the way to work this morning, the wife was thinking the EB51 is not a good idea, but suggested the 4-captains chair layout instead. She was concerned about being able to reach the kids if necessary to reset toys, sing them a song etc...or having to shout at me from the back. Its bad enough in the Jeep JKU (that has been sound insulated out the wazoo already).

GREAT FEEDBACK about the seats! I didn't think of having to move the dang car seats - one of my biggest pet peeves is not having a place for stuff to 'live'. Moving My son is big for his age (he is 27# and 32" - and is 9mo)...so we had to get a huge car seat that he won't grow out of.

Your path is one we were considering - dropping an Ursa Minor on the Jeep...or moving towards a Suburban with a westy style pop top...but then we took a step back and realized neither would be right for a our needs (perceived needs).

 

[vtsoundman]

Why consider a Sprinter, but not a Quadvan converted Transit?

I checked Quadvan's site...no info about the Transit (unless I'm missing something obvious). One of the issues I've had with Quigely is their use of Quigely mfr'd parts. I spoke with one of their reps at Expo in Flag, and he said something about the hub assemblies being mfr'd by Quigley - I can understand brackets, suspension arms, etc being custom/unique to Quigley, but all machined parts should be reuse of an OTS Ford component.

Based on your note however, I call them both to get more info.

 

[taylor3633]

I think with 2 adults, 2 kids, and 2 large dogs, just about any van conversion you buy is going to get very small very fast.

+1

We have one 2 y/o and a large dog in an EB, I am trying to figure out how to make the setup work with a second child...

 

[brianjwilson]

We had no problem with two of us and two kids. But the dogs would surely bother me. Lol

Really it depends on your use. Some people will tell you an EB van is small. But if you're using it to travel, sleep in and hide from weather it's awesome. Sure you don't want to spend all day every day in it with two kids and two dogs. But it is a huge step up in space from a jeep!

Get an awning with an extra room or screen room, and kick the dogs out at night or put the kids out when they get older and bigger. Make sure you have an upstairs bed and downstairs bed. A hard roof will be great if you can store bedding up and out of the way when traveling. I love the idea of a hard top, but I feel like it would make places more difficult to access and my neighbors would complain.

It will take careful planning of space and organization to not drive each other nuts in the van with the kids. There isn't a ton of extra space (7 feet or so in a ford, depending on where you put your seats) behind four captains chairs. Inevitably you'll be shuffling things a lot, no matter what you do. We really like our front runner flat pack bags. They fold up small, stack well, have label holders and are reasonably sturdy. So it's no big deal to stack them up when traveling, move them around and quickly identify the important ones when needed (diapers!).

If you can, find a place to rent a sportsmobile for a weekend or something and you'll quickly see what you do and don't like. And it will probably help convince your wife that a van will be great for the family.

 

[brianjwilson]

I took a couple quick pictures for you today in my EB ford. Still have a ton of work, but this is just to give you an idea of space with four captain chairs.

I've mounted the rear Sienna reclining seats. They're in a very comfortable position for us to get in and out, easy to get between them, comfortable for adults. They reclining foot rests do extend fully, but for me (6' tall) I couldn't stretch out on the reclining foot rests without hitting the seat in front of me. Eventually I'll have four aluminum L tracks minted full length, the seats could move some. Long term plan is similar to a sportsmobile EB-27.

The first is just a quick comparison, our car seats (big bulky diono rainers) in the 2016 Jetta. The rear facing car seat is wedged against the back of the passenger seat. My wife can sit up front (she is short) but I can't sit very comfortably on that side.


And both car seats in the van. 6" between the rear facing seat and the driver's seat in a comfortable position for me. My daughter is 2, and she loves to be able to put her feet on the footrest.


In this position, there is 8' for the rear door to the bottom of the seats. 7' to the rearmost part of the seats semi reclined.


Roughly 18" between seats at 26" high.


13" between armrests


16" between seats on the floor. About as far apart as these can be with the fuel filler and door entry.


Also the visibility from the back seats is very good. Once I get the sliding door with factory window painted, my daughter will have a great view out the side. But even now, she can see out the front and driver's side quite well. And a great view of the in dash DVD player until I figure out another screen (or two?).

We thought that there would be some advantages to having the dinette in back, with cabinets behind the captains chairs. BUT I realized that the cabinets would severely restrict the recline angle on the seats. Lots of wasted space, whereas the seats now could recline "over" the dinette seat. The other advantage is that my wife could sit in the dinette seat occasionally and help entertain and feed the kids while traveling.

 

[vtsoundman]

I took a couple quick pictures for you today in my EB ford. Still have a ton of work, but this is just to give you an idea of space with four captain chairs.....

WOw! Thanks man for all the great information. We have the same issue with car seats - my son is 9mo and is ~32" and 27#. We had to find a car seat that he would not grow out of - and fit in our vehicles (my jeep and wife's mini cooper countryman - which has more passenger space than the jeep). We settled on a Clek Fllo since it had a little better ability to handle a big kid. Your pics and measurements are making me rethink a few things. Those Sienna seats look huge - any idea how much bigger they are (front to back) vs the factory seats? Do your captains chairs take up the entire door opening?I wonder how they compare to something from Freedman coach seats/mini bench. I need to digest all the great info you provided...



I spent the weekend driving all sorts of vans - notes below:

Sprinter : 3500 High Roof EB (the big one with DRW). This 2010 Freightliner model had been worked hard as a delivery van for a Ship/Port company ...with only 125k miles, it still felt tight, responsive and had crisp shifting. The body was beatup pretty bad - trim pieces were missing, the door latches were loose, the seat was partially broken. It was a cargo model with no windows (not even the very back)...very quiet, brakes were a little squishy, but still stopped the empty van well.

No hesitation during acceleration, started right up, and shifted nicely. The most surprising aspect (despite the lack of windows, back up camera's etc,) was that I knew EXACTLY where I was on the road - the van had great visual cues making it easy know where I was in the lane, very easy to maneuver in parking lots, along our tight residential street, etc. The turning radius was incredible - was able to get in/out of my driveway with only a 2 point turn. Very little wheel spin and again - amazing visual cues guiding me into the narrow rock wall lined driveway. Did I mention quiet? Very little engine noise. Some roadnoise, but much less than I was expecting. Handling was surprisingly nimble feeling and confidence inspiring - could easly see my wife driving it. Lots of room inside for all we would want to do...major concerns about overhang & offroad/softroad road even with a 4x package from Sprinter. Driving comfort was good - needed some new shocks/struts. The tires were a little soft too. There was some clunking underneath my feet - made me wonder if it needed bushings or ball joints of some sort, but it still drove nice & tight.

As a side note, I did drive a 4x version earlier this year - a fully loaded 2500 ~144WB wagon version. Nice vehicle - surprisingly louder than the 2010 3500 (and much tighter than the one I drove).

Chevy Express Duramax RB This was a 2011(?) factory Duramax with the Allison - fully loaded/spec'd out with power everything and ~120k miles - also a cargo van (no windows except the rear doors). Overall, in pretty decent shape. Obviously used as a contractor van, but the guy really seemed to take care of it.

The steering was a little stiffer than I'm used to in GM trucks. Brakes were typical GM squish, but damn sticky - wow they stopped the van on a dime. Much more responsive than the Sprinter & Transit vans and confidence inspiring. With the Duramax, that thing really moved - engine noise was pronounced at idle and on highway under load. Moving along at 30-35mph, it wasn't bad. Not sure how much insulation would help with noise emanating from dog house.

Visual cues were not nearly as good. Felt like a much larger vehicle - even though it was several feet shorter than the Sprinter, it felt bigger. Could use some new shocks,

Driving comfort was OK - lack of tilt or telescoping wheel (forget which) was annoying and slightly uncomfortable. I'm 6' and found the seating position/steering wheel positioning to be OK - but would likely be uncomfortable for my long legged 5'8" wife. Am not really sure how big the opening would be if fitted with Fiberline 24" top - looked like there was quite a bit of structure that would intrude on the opening.

2016 Ford Transit - 350 Mid Roof Mid Length Wagon - This one had the Turbo V6 in it. Damn it was fast - felt the fastest of the bunch (may not actually be faster than the Duramax, but it was snappier). Much nicer driving than the Chevy and it was on par with the Sprinter - but really really quiet. Little if any road noise, nearly Visual cues were OK - slightly better than the Chevy, but all the curves of the front windows were a little misleading. In time, I;'m sure it would be fine. (Sprinter was the best with the shortest learning curve). Braking was nice & predictable - but would have liked the Chevy's brakes on a van this size. Cockpit comfort was great - everything was in reach & cupholders everywhere. Nicely thought out. No qualms about taking this thing thousands of miles on pavement - incredibly low. ~6" of ground clearance this thing needs a 4" lift (incl tires) to make it usable offroad. The big ole EB model - holy smokes, it better be a lot higher or I would dragging over just about everything, including getting into my driveway. Not really a big fan of putting the batteries under the driver seat - would prefer that space be available for me.

Other things of note: no side opening barn doors on mid & high roof models (only slider). No downward opening windows - only those weird side opening windows that are mid-glass (and will allow rain in if open & stopped). The interior height is very impressive...

Ford EB E350 5.4V8 Next on my list to drive. I've driven them in the past, but not recently....there are several used machines in the area. Wish I could find a 4x4 SMB owner nearby that would let me check it out.

Overall Conclusions
Just based on this weekend's driving...
Transit - hands down IF AND ONLY IF it can be lifted out of the weeds. Given its lack of ground clearance, I'd honestly be concerned about its ability to deal with moderate amounts of snow/slush during a decent snow storm or mountain pass. The Transit is every bit as good as the Sprinter w/o the Merc markup - and in some cases it felt better when I did some simulated evasive maneuvers. (Scared the crap outta the sales guy). Sprinter had better visual cues. Comfort in the Transit was a little better - nice radio. Cockpit feel - meh, about the same. Transit had better accoutrements for the driver & passenger (cup holders, gadgets/technology). Hard to tell which would be better if having to log many hours.

Any sort of more serious offroading, trail driving etc - it is a lifted Ford (or Chevy) van...hands down, no contest, do not pass go. My wife and I will need to discuss the 'use cases' for which we see using our adventure van....

 

[brianjwilson]

I don't know how the Siennas compare to others. As far as mounting, they are positioned far back to allow easy entry/exit, and to allow the foot rests to fully extend. They swing up and extended several inches. My 2 year old girl loves to have the foot rest up (needs a towel or cushion to put her feet on it but really helps with comfort/naps). It's just an example. You could certainly install a bench and mount it further forward depending on how your rear layout will be setup.

The 5.4 is really unimpressive in a big heavy van. A tuner does help but still. The transit it probably a good option, I'm and sure it's great to drive. I've just had my heart set on a big lifted EB ford van forever. Most of the time it will be on the highway, but it will get its fair share of off road and beach use. I'll happily sacrifice some highway manners and fuel mileage for capability, but everyone is different. You have to be honest about how you'll use the van I suppose, and particularly what will make the traveling easier for wife and kids. That is the ultimate goal anyway right, keep them all happy and comfortable enough so you can get out more.... Right?

 

[vtsoundman]

Some add'l info I found out today from those that do business with Quad & Quigley:

Quigley 4x4 conversions:
- Use a fair amount of 'Quigley parts'.
- Customer can get parts, but only at the speed & expense of UPS/FEDEX
- Mass produced - which is great.
- Quality is usually outstanding
- Ride is far from great on the e-series.
- Transit ride is decent


Quad : Uses all Ford Parts
- Best ride between Quigley & Quad
- Far superior build quality & parts used
- Rarely have any issues

Agile:
- Still researching.
- Did have some correspondence, but it was limited.
- Note: All seem to agree they have the best ride of all the E-Series conversions. This may check the highway manners box better than others. Need to understand the use of Ford parts vs custom vs available at '4 shops' vs commonly available at Napa...

UJoint
- No info from UJoint directly - haven't spoken to them yet.
- They are on the opposite coast from me. Makes selecting them as a vendor a tough prospect as there is not replacement for hands/eyes on product - despite the solid reputation.

Transit Conversion & Quad : Seems like they are hard to do business with, but the owner bends over backwards once you're a customer - seems like the initial transaction is difficult. Per my conversations, a 4" lift from Quad is a long ways off or not at all. He had lots of issues getting the 4" lift done. The Quad Transit conversion is a solid product, but Quad is in the midst of getting some parts re-designed and is taking a very long time to get it done to the point that he is losing orders & business. Quad has not responded to any of my attempts to communicate over the past week or so.

 

[vtsoundman]

I don't know how the Siennas compare to others. As far as mounting, they are positioned far back to allow easy entry/exit, and to allow the foot rests to fully extend. They swing up and extended several inches. My 2 year old girl loves to have the foot rest up (needs a towel or cushion to put her feet on it but really helps with comfort/naps). It's just an example. You could certainly install a bench and mount it further forward depending on how your rear layout will be setup.

The 5.4 is really unimpressive in a big heavy van. A tuner does help but still. The transit it probably a good option, I'm and sure it's great to drive. I've just had my heart set on a big lifted EB ford van forever. Most of the time it will be on the highway, but it will get its fair share of off road and beach use. I'll happily sacrifice some highway manners and fuel mileage for capability, but everyone is different. You have to be honest about how you'll use the van I suppose, and particularly what will make the traveling easier for wife and kids. That is the ultimate goal anyway right, keep them all happy and comfortable enough so you can get out more.... Right?

The Sienna seats sound cool - I dig the foot rest option - giving up a few inches of space for that luxury is somewhat appealing. I intend on having this van a long time...
I agree about the 5.4 - it is too small of an engine for a large van with a high roof. (Lack of power is a pet peeve of mine - if a vehicle is struggling, then it makes the drive less fun).


Regarding highway manners - my analysis was on the vans in their stock form. Offroad (and in the near future) I don't see anything but a built Chevy or Ford E-Series being capable rigs for moderate off-road trails. If anyone believes otherwise, please let me know - my mind is still processing all the data. It is hard for me to have any first hand experience with any of this - I don't know anyone with adventure vans.


My wife is a hell of a sport - she never complains and is eager partner to travel, but I can 'read/gauge' her comfort level by her desire to drive. We did 11k miles in a Jeep JKU over a span of 7.5wks in the heart of winter all over the US with a 2mo & 90# dog...we had a blast. We've also been all over the place in the Jeep...and it gets poor mileage is far from a comfortable long haul vehicle. She loved a Denali XL we rented for a 5 day 2k mile road trip (jeep was getting its frame straightened after an idiot ran a red light), but more for the space & power than ride comfort....

Do you have any more pics of the inside? What bunk config are you going with? I'm headed towards a rear bed for the adults & bunks suspended by straps for the kids/reattached to the cieling when stowed. I figure the 24 or 20" Fiberline high top will be give me the vertical space I need. Naps can be taken in our bed while they are still little if we need to be in the van at the same time.