Terra Pass -- CO2 credits

[Photog]

Nice off topic rant......

This thread isn't about saying our country is evil or FJ80s are bad. The point of the thread was to ask opinions on carbon credits. People can do 3 things to help reduce CO2 worldwide 1) nothing 2) reduce their impacts 3) do not reduce their impacts, but instead offset their impacts by funding clean initiatives.

So what is your opinion on number 3 Photog? If you worked for a company developing cutting edge solar technologies, would you turn down funding from places like Terra Pass or STI because it is a form of liberty thievery???

Good point, and my appologies for the Off-topic rant.

If Terra Pass or STI was intent on curtailing people's lives and liberties, on the premis of CO2 reduction, I would pass on their offer for funding.

On the other hand, I would go after the funding that is being put into wind-powered-electric-generaters; and request that their money be put into my cutting edge solar cells. We could replace the roof tiles on a great many houses, and put that electricity back into the grid, without making an eye-sore on the landscape, with the wind mills.

Now, if you are a multi-millionaire, you can make much more difference to the CO2 problem by funding "green" projects, than you can by reducing your own carbon footprint. Does that make you a hypocrite? Are you not driving a modern vehicle, and using flourescent lights, and living in a well insulated home?

As for "1) Do nothing", that is happening (nationally) in many places; but not in the USA. Even when we pump oil out of the ground, we liquify pump all the gasses back into the ground, except the natural gas. We drive a fuel injected, catalyzed vehicles. Most companies use low power lighting. Etc, etc. There are countries, with large populations, where they are doing nothing. That is where efforts should be concentrated.

How am I doing? Back on topic?

 

[Ursidae69]

Good point, and my appologies for the Off-topic rant.

If Terra Pass or STI was intent on curtailing people's lives and liberties, on the premis of CO2 reduction, I would pass on their offer for funding.

On the other hand, I would go after the funding that is being put into wind-powered-electric-generaters; and request that their money be put into my cutting edge solar cells. We could replace the roof tiles on a great many houses, and put that electricity back into the grid, without making an eye-sore on the landscape, with the wind mills.

Now, if you are a multi-millionaire, you can make much more difference to the CO2 problem by funding "green" projects, than you can by reducing your own carbon footprint. Does that make you a hypocrite? Are you not driving a modern vehicle, and using flourescent lights, and living in a well insulated home?

As for "1) Do nothing", that is happening (nationally) in many places; but not in the USA. Even when we pump oil out of the ground, we liquify pump all the gasses back into the ground, except the natural gas. We drive a fuel injected, catalyzed vehicles. Most companies use low power lighting. Etc, etc. There are countries, with large populations, where they are doing nothing. That is where efforts should be concentrated.

How am I doing? Back on topic?

Yes, you are on topic. :shakin: On your millionaire question, I do not think that makes one a hypocrite. I personally do not have the money to buy carbon credits, so I do what I can in my own life to try to reduce my footprint. I would hope that the folks buying the credits are also trying to do more than just buying credits. But, if buying credits is all they are doing, that is better than nothing, so maybe it is mildly hypocritical of them.

The "Do nothing" analogy was meant individually I think, thinking nationally the argument is quite muddy. Yes, the USA does a lot, but we should be leading the world, but we are not. So, we can and should do more as a nation. Countries with a large population like China are not doing near enough, and when all 6 billion of them start driving cars and using oil at the rate we do, the world will really be in trouble. The USA needs to lead the way into other energy sources not just for us, but for the world. Things that happen in China, can and will affect us and our climate.

Thanks for clarifying your arguments for me.

 

[Photog]

This is a good conversation.

Who in the USA, is not doing something, to help with the reduction of CO2?

Maybe the really poor folks that can't afford a modern car, or flourescent bulbs, or a well insulated mobile home?

I think most folks are doing a lot to reduce power consumption. And our EPA controlled vehicles reduce personal emissions. (so far, I don't need a gas-recirculation system on my toilet).

Could Americans do more? Probably. They could use flat panel TV's, instead of tube-type TV's. They could reduce their TV watching. Turn off lights, when not in the room. Go to bed earlier. Lower the thermostat, and wear long sleeves. Don't drive anywhere; except work and the store. Live closer to their place of work. Ride a bike or walk to work, after they move closer.

Local governments could spend gas taxes on improving the roads, to reduce traffic congestion.

Question: What country is doing better at this than us? (not saying we are the best, just wondering).

My thoughts on Terra Pass? F@#%$! them! Oh, the Elitism of it all.:REOutArchery02:

 

[goodtimes]

. . . 3) do not reduce their impacts, but instead offset their impacts by funding clean initiatives.

OoOoO!!!! Can I jump in and play despite not having read the whole thread? (I started following it a while back, but lost track of it).

#3 just bugs the heck out of me. It is a complete cop out. If someone wants to donate $$$ to organizations which are developing 'green' energy, by all means, do it. I'll even pat you on the back for your efforts....good on 'ya and all that happy stuff. Seriously.

But it is complete BS to think that a donation mitigates your own impact. If you are concerned with your carbon footprint, then take steps to reduce YOUR carbon footprint. Don't think that you can simply buy your way into a carbon neutral lifestyle. It is a bunch of bull puckey. It makes as much sense as me dumping a 55 gallon drum of used motor oil in the wash behind my house, then giving my neighbor $100 if he promises to not dump his used oil out there. I still dumped 55 gallons of used friggin oil in the wash! The money doesn't change that....and carbon credits don't change YOUR impact.

I'll spare you the long rant I had typed out regarding a certain person who recently won the Nobel Peace Prize....because that would probably send this thread off into nasty death spiral, then Chuck would beat me with a stick. And that would be bad. :sport_box

 

[Photog]

Goodtimes,
I agree, from a theoretical point of view; but the Devil is in the details. This response is not aimed at you; but at the power play that option #3 pushes on all of us.

From a practical point of view, what does someone like Steve Forbes do, to reduce their carbon footprint? If he did everything you & I do (and he probably does), how much difference does it make?

If he could fund a program in India, that would help India to modernize their power plants, oil rigs, and automotive exhaust, Steve would make much more impact.

Steve Forbes already does things like Netmeeting, Telecommute, modern vehicle emissions control, lower energy consumption at home, etc. He probably has the finest insulation and double pane windows money can buy. I don't think you are suggesting that these types of folks reduce their standard of living. What is the use in being wealthy, if you can't hire a few people to make life comfortable. If he didn't own that extra house in the Hamptons, someone else would own it, and nothing would change. You could make a bigger difference by limiting NASCAR races to the top ten cars. maybe outlaw autoracing completely. And those shuttle launches.!

How draconian do we want to get?

If people are suggesting that the wealthy folks need to reduce their standard of living, then how do we decide how far down they should come. Is our level good enough? Some people would think we are the wealthy, and have too much impact. Maybe we should all downsize to a 1000 square foot house, with no shop or garage (Al Gore's dream for the pee-ons).

Buying carbon credits just sounds like another tax on the people that already cover 80% or the total IRS revenues.

Al Gore's dream is a nightmare.

 

[Clutch]

Maybe we should all downsize to a 1000 square foot house, with no shop or garage (Al Gore's dream for the pee-ons).

Al Gore's dream is a nightmare.

My house is smaller than 1000 square foot...I guess I am living a nightmare...I do however have a garage, there is hope.


Could someone please explain why Al, won the Nobel Peace prize, because I am really confused on that one.

 

[Ursidae69]

Could someone please explain why Al, won the Nobel Peace prize, because I am really confused on that one.

For raising awareness on the GW issue. No, I do not agree with it, I think there are many other more qualified folks that should have won.

 

[vcsnover]

going green for the sake of going green?

Unfortunately, folks like us are the minority... meaning, those that do it for the good of the planet, or their kids future, etc. The cold reality is, in my opinion, that until it is made a for profit alternative to the status quo, either through government tax breaks, heavy fines/regulations (that actually are enforced with some teeth), there will be no change, at least not on a large enough scale to make a real difference. People go into business to make money and if you can make money and help the planet, or help others to help the planet then I think that could only be a good thing. Just my two cents.

 

[Clutch]

For raising awareness on the GW issue. No, I do not agree with it....

Him winning the Nobel, tarnishes it a bit, don't you think? Oh well, I am still amazed of the tomfoolery that goes on in this country.

Back to carbon credits:

I was reading the lastest issue of Rolling Stone. It has an interview with Jane Goodall, she was asked about energy sources, she clearly doesn't like Bio-fuels, her solution is Carbon Credits.

I am confused by her answer, how does buying Carbon Credits (carbon trading) solve our energy needs?

Go to Page 164: http://www.rollingstoneextras.com/rsdigitaledition/editionLg.php

 

[Ursidae69]

Him winning the Nobel, tarnishes it a bit, don't you think? Oh well, I am still amazed of the tomfoolery that goes on in this country.

No, I do not think it tarnishes it at all. The peace prize is not an American award, so it has nothing to do with any "tomfoolery" in this country, even though we have a LOT of it, most prominently at the top. The peace prize is awarded by a Norwegian committee and the other science prizes are awarded by a Swedish committee.

Maybe this shows that the rest of the world might think this whole GW issue is bigger than us Americans do?

The Rolling Stone interview is very provocative, thanks for linking that.

 

[Clutch]

Maybe this shows that the rest of the world might think this whole GW issue is bigger than us Americans do?

The Rolling Stone interview is very provocative, thanks for linking that.

Al does deserve something for bringing awarness, but, I think he is getting awarded just a tad too much...just a tad. I am sure there a several people not in the headlines that deserve it more than he does.

The issue is serious, but, for the life of me I can't take Al Gore seriously.

Edit: I actually thought it was joke, when I heard Al won the Nobel. I always thought it was reserved for the elite, the most brilliant minds of our world. But, what do the hell I know, I am just a cynical opinionated **************.

There are some great interviews in that RS issue, I can't seem to put it down. I am not a huge fan of Rolling Stone, it just started showing up in my mail box.