TerraLiner:12 m Globally Mobile Beach House/Class-A Crossover w 6x6 Hybrid Drivetrain
- Thread starter biotect
- Start date
biotect
Designer
Hi Lo-Road,
Good to hear from you.
Actually, still working away, but there’s only so much time that I can devote to this thread. I figure this thread is now about 6 or 7 months behind the current leading edge of my thinking. All the stuff that I am filling in about water and (solar) power autonomy, for instance: I wrote most of that stuff back in May and June. I've been trying to keep the process of filling in images fresh for myself by adding more material, and sometimes that “additional in-fill” gets a bit excessive, so I get a bit bogged down…..
.... But the basic theses were hammered out months ago.
It would be a mistake to think that this thread directly mirrors or records the design development of the TerraLiner in real time. Just because the thread might be stagnant for a bit, does not mean that the project is. Furthermore, it would be a mistake to think that everything that I write and research appears in this thread. Fairly early on I found myself generating long posting-series that I simply never had time to download. For instance, almost a year ago I created a long posting series on the VW Kombi, which explored the kinds of design values it instantiates, and how these may or may not be relevant to contemporary overlanding. That posting series ran many pages, I never posted it, but I did turn it into an academic essay. I figure that only about 1/3 of my research and writing appears on ExPo.
I keep the thread alive mainly because it continues to serve as a possible source of inspiration. Writing for a wider audience also forces me to clarify my thinking, and respond to “devil’s advocate” comments of the kind that thjakits likes to post.
I did not want to respond immediately to thjakits, because that would have only encouraged him to respond in turn, and I wanted to get some other things completed first, for instance, the series on MAN and IVECO-Astra customization. I also need to finish the 28 pages on water-autonomy and solar, as well as some earlier posts that I left hanging. Very shortly I should be finished with filling in the images on page 142, the posts about Chinese Sixes and trench-crossing, and I do have thjakits to thank for pointing me in the direction of Chinese Sixes to begin with!
Once I finish up the MAN and IVECO-Astra customization posts, and have made some more progress on water autonomy, I hope to re-engage thjaktis.
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1. A Tale of Two Architectural Continents
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Now given your comment, this seemed like an opportune moment to grab the proverbial bull by the horns, and address American anti-intellectualism head-on. For a classic book on the topic of American anti-intellectualism, see “Anti-Intellectualism in American Life” by Richard Hofstader, at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-intellectualism_in_American_Life and http://www.amazon.com/Anti-Intellectualism-American-Life-Richard-Hofstadter/dp/0394703170 .
My own view of design is quite obviously intellectual. This means that my view of design is somewhat different than what one might call the “naïve” view that most people -- and even some designers -- tend to hold. Many think that design is just about drawing or engineering, and of course it is, but only in part. Some of the most interesting and sophisticated design thinking is not visual at all. I will illustrate this by reference to a profession somewhat analogous to transportation design, namely, architecture.
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During the 1970's and 1980s, American architects began producing reactionary-kitsch buildings with pseudo-classical decorative elements, a style that came to be known as "postmodern" – see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postmodern_architecture . Modernism in architecture seemed to have exhausted itself, or so American architects thought. They didn’t know what to do next, they couldn’t think their way through to the next cultural moment, so American architects simply started producing buildings that revived previous cultural moments, buildings covered with decorative kitsch.
By way of contrast, British and European architects never gave up on modernism, and during the 1980’s they took modernism in architecture thousands of kilometers further into the future. Over the last 40 years, it is has been British and European architects who are most responsible for producing the architectural styles now known as "high-tech", "organi-tech", “biomorphic architecture”, "blobitecture", and most recently, “parametricism” – see http://archnet.org/system/publications/contents/4756/original/DPC1453.pdf?1384786587 , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biomorphism , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blobitecture , http://architecture.about.com/od/buildingparts/fl/House-Style-of-the-Future-Parametricism.htm , http://www.patrikschumacher.com/Tex... Style for Architecture and Urban Design.html , and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parametricism . The vast majority of buildings that are now classified as "organi-tech" or "blobitecture" were designed and built in Europe, by European architects (here including British architects) – see for instance http://weburbanist.com/2010/08/08/blobitecture-11-cool-ways-architecture-gets-a-round/ , http://www.kuriositas.com/2011/01/blobitecture-rise-of-organic.html , and http://architecturenow.co.nz/articles/10-best-examples-of-blobitecture-named/ :
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Good to hear from you.
Actually, still working away, but there’s only so much time that I can devote to this thread. I figure this thread is now about 6 or 7 months behind the current leading edge of my thinking. All the stuff that I am filling in about water and (solar) power autonomy, for instance: I wrote most of that stuff back in May and June. I've been trying to keep the process of filling in images fresh for myself by adding more material, and sometimes that “additional in-fill” gets a bit excessive, so I get a bit bogged down…..
.... But the basic theses were hammered out months ago. It would be a mistake to think that this thread directly mirrors or records the design development of the TerraLiner in real time. Just because the thread might be stagnant for a bit, does not mean that the project is. Furthermore, it would be a mistake to think that everything that I write and research appears in this thread. Fairly early on I found myself generating long posting-series that I simply never had time to download. For instance, almost a year ago I created a long posting series on the VW Kombi, which explored the kinds of design values it instantiates, and how these may or may not be relevant to contemporary overlanding. That posting series ran many pages, I never posted it, but I did turn it into an academic essay. I figure that only about 1/3 of my research and writing appears on ExPo.
I keep the thread alive mainly because it continues to serve as a possible source of inspiration. Writing for a wider audience also forces me to clarify my thinking, and respond to “devil’s advocate” comments of the kind that thjakits likes to post.
I did not want to respond immediately to thjakits, because that would have only encouraged him to respond in turn, and I wanted to get some other things completed first, for instance, the series on MAN and IVECO-Astra customization. I also need to finish the 28 pages on water-autonomy and solar, as well as some earlier posts that I left hanging. Very shortly I should be finished with filling in the images on page 142, the posts about Chinese Sixes and trench-crossing, and I do have thjakits to thank for pointing me in the direction of Chinese Sixes to begin with!
Once I finish up the MAN and IVECO-Astra customization posts, and have made some more progress on water autonomy, I hope to re-engage thjaktis.
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1. A Tale of Two Architectural Continents
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Now given your comment, this seemed like an opportune moment to grab the proverbial bull by the horns, and address American anti-intellectualism head-on. For a classic book on the topic of American anti-intellectualism, see “Anti-Intellectualism in American Life” by Richard Hofstader, at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-intellectualism_in_American_Life and http://www.amazon.com/Anti-Intellectualism-American-Life-Richard-Hofstadter/dp/0394703170 .
My own view of design is quite obviously intellectual. This means that my view of design is somewhat different than what one might call the “naïve” view that most people -- and even some designers -- tend to hold. Many think that design is just about drawing or engineering, and of course it is, but only in part. Some of the most interesting and sophisticated design thinking is not visual at all. I will illustrate this by reference to a profession somewhat analogous to transportation design, namely, architecture.
*****************************************
During the 1970's and 1980s, American architects began producing reactionary-kitsch buildings with pseudo-classical decorative elements, a style that came to be known as "postmodern" – see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postmodern_architecture . Modernism in architecture seemed to have exhausted itself, or so American architects thought. They didn’t know what to do next, they couldn’t think their way through to the next cultural moment, so American architects simply started producing buildings that revived previous cultural moments, buildings covered with decorative kitsch.
By way of contrast, British and European architects never gave up on modernism, and during the 1980’s they took modernism in architecture thousands of kilometers further into the future. Over the last 40 years, it is has been British and European architects who are most responsible for producing the architectural styles now known as "high-tech", "organi-tech", “biomorphic architecture”, "blobitecture", and most recently, “parametricism” – see http://archnet.org/system/publications/contents/4756/original/DPC1453.pdf?1384786587 , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biomorphism , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blobitecture , http://architecture.about.com/od/buildingparts/fl/House-Style-of-the-Future-Parametricism.htm , http://www.patrikschumacher.com/Tex... Style for Architecture and Urban Design.html , and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parametricism . The vast majority of buildings that are now classified as "organi-tech" or "blobitecture" were designed and built in Europe, by European architects (here including British architects) – see for instance http://weburbanist.com/2010/08/08/blobitecture-11-cool-ways-architecture-gets-a-round/ , http://www.kuriositas.com/2011/01/blobitecture-rise-of-organic.html , and http://architecturenow.co.nz/articles/10-best-examples-of-blobitecture-named/ :
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biotect
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[video=youtube;wRmE4WnjdKo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRmE4WnjdKo [/video]
One probably needs to actually live in Europe to directly experience some of these buildings, because as I said, the United States is behind. Even today American developers are still erecting buildings that are postmodern kitsch, unless they were designed by European architects.
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[video=youtube;wRmE4WnjdKo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRmE4WnjdKo [/video]
One probably needs to actually live in Europe to directly experience some of these buildings, because as I said, the United States is behind. Even today American developers are still erecting buildings that are postmodern kitsch, unless they were designed by European architects.
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biotect
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Whereas London is full of organi-tech buildings, for instance the Gherkin and the Shard, and most notably, the London City Hall designed by Sir Norman Foster – see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/30_St_Mary_Axe , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shard , http://www.the-shard.com , and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ City_Hall,_London :
[video=vimeo;12977527]https://vimeo.com/12977527[/video]
In effect, while Europe has been powering ahead aesthetically, for the last 40 years the United States has been stuck in an era best characterized by political, cultural, and aesthetically reactionary neo-Victorianism. While American designers and architects were just drawing lots and thinking very little, the ball of architectural innovation has decisively moved back to Europe.
Please note that I am just reporting here, and this observation is not original to me. It's now a widely remarked political, cultural, and aesthetic fact.
Yes, there is no question that the American architect Frank Gehry has been an important pioneer of CAD-driven organic, high-tech architecture, and Gehry's Bilbao Guggenheim was a breakthrough. Which is why one of the videos that I posted above discusses Gehry – see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guggenheim_Museum_Bilbao and http://www.guggenheim.org/bilbao . But I can't help but notice that Gehry's masterpiece building is located in Europe, in Spain, and not the United States…..:sombrero:
Furthermore, aside from Gehry and perhaps another American architect named Greg Lynn, there are currently no practicing, peak-of-career, mature American architects who are contributing to the development of organi-tech architecture or “blobitecture”. Instead, almost all the big names are European, with a preponderance of Brits: Zaha Hadia, Norman Foster, Richard Rogers, Nicholas Grimshaw, Peter Cook, Jean Nouvel, Emphraim Henrie Pavie, Renzo Piano, Santiago Calatrava, and the recently deceased Jan Kaplicky.
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Whereas London is full of organi-tech buildings, for instance the Gherkin and the Shard, and most notably, the London City Hall designed by Sir Norman Foster – see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/30_St_Mary_Axe , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shard , http://www.the-shard.com , and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ City_Hall,_London :
[video=vimeo;12977527]https://vimeo.com/12977527[/video]
In effect, while Europe has been powering ahead aesthetically, for the last 40 years the United States has been stuck in an era best characterized by political, cultural, and aesthetically reactionary neo-Victorianism. While American designers and architects were just drawing lots and thinking very little, the ball of architectural innovation has decisively moved back to Europe.
Please note that I am just reporting here, and this observation is not original to me. It's now a widely remarked political, cultural, and aesthetic fact.
Yes, there is no question that the American architect Frank Gehry has been an important pioneer of CAD-driven organic, high-tech architecture, and Gehry's Bilbao Guggenheim was a breakthrough. Which is why one of the videos that I posted above discusses Gehry – see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guggenheim_Museum_Bilbao and http://www.guggenheim.org/bilbao . But I can't help but notice that Gehry's masterpiece building is located in Europe, in Spain, and not the United States…..:sombrero:
Furthermore, aside from Gehry and perhaps another American architect named Greg Lynn, there are currently no practicing, peak-of-career, mature American architects who are contributing to the development of organi-tech architecture or “blobitecture”. Instead, almost all the big names are European, with a preponderance of Brits: Zaha Hadia, Norman Foster, Richard Rogers, Nicholas Grimshaw, Peter Cook, Jean Nouvel, Emphraim Henrie Pavie, Renzo Piano, Santiago Calatrava, and the recently deceased Jan Kaplicky.
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biotect
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2. The United States: Still an Aesthetic Satellite of Europe
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Now here's the thing: in the United States, students currently attending schools of architecture do not want to “continue postmodernism”. No contemporary American architecture students have any interest whatsoever in the kitschy-jokey-decorative, pseudo-neo-classical postmodern kitsch that was all the rage in the United States back in the 1980s. Rather, they all want to design super-high-tech buildings that nonetheless look organic; in effect, the building equivalent of a Smartflower -- see posts #1810 - #1813, at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...igid-Torsion-Free-Frame?p=1932485#post1932485 and following.
What this actually means, culturally speaking, is that current young American architects are once again importing their aesthetics from Europe. They do not want to emulate the older generation of postmodern American architects who still teach at American Ivy League architecture schools. Rather, they want to emulate architects like Zaha Hadid, architects who were trained at the Architectural Association in London, and who live and work in Europe.
The Architectural Association in London is key here, because it's the institution most responsible for generating the innovative, “Think More!” design culture that now predominates in Europe. The AA is considered by many to be the top school of architecture in the world, even better than Harvard or Yale, because the AA deliberately fosters innovation, creativity, and a more “intellectual” approach to architecture – see http://www.aaschool.ac.uk. Most of Britain's most prominent and original architects are AA graduates, architects like Richard Rogers and Zaha Hadid.
When architectural historians in the 22nd century write the history of 20th century architecture, American postmodernism of the 1980s and 1990s will prove a mere footnote. Instead, they will devote big chapters (or holo-experiences…..) to European hi-tech and organi-tech, and the central role that the Architectural Association played in catalyzing genuine design creativity. For instance Zaha Hadid, an architect of true genius, will be remembered, whereas American postmodernists like Venturi & Rauch, Robert Graves, and Robert Stern will be forgotten – see http://www.zaha-hadid.com , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaha_Hadid , and http://www.dw.com/en/the-incredible-architecture-of-zaha-hadid/a-18824053 :
Here comes the punch-line.
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2. The United States: Still an Aesthetic Satellite of Europe
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Now here's the thing: in the United States, students currently attending schools of architecture do not want to “continue postmodernism”. No contemporary American architecture students have any interest whatsoever in the kitschy-jokey-decorative, pseudo-neo-classical postmodern kitsch that was all the rage in the United States back in the 1980s. Rather, they all want to design super-high-tech buildings that nonetheless look organic; in effect, the building equivalent of a Smartflower -- see posts #1810 - #1813, at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...igid-Torsion-Free-Frame?p=1932485#post1932485 and following.
What this actually means, culturally speaking, is that current young American architects are once again importing their aesthetics from Europe. They do not want to emulate the older generation of postmodern American architects who still teach at American Ivy League architecture schools. Rather, they want to emulate architects like Zaha Hadid, architects who were trained at the Architectural Association in London, and who live and work in Europe.
The Architectural Association in London is key here, because it's the institution most responsible for generating the innovative, “Think More!” design culture that now predominates in Europe. The AA is considered by many to be the top school of architecture in the world, even better than Harvard or Yale, because the AA deliberately fosters innovation, creativity, and a more “intellectual” approach to architecture – see http://www.aaschool.ac.uk. Most of Britain's most prominent and original architects are AA graduates, architects like Richard Rogers and Zaha Hadid.
When architectural historians in the 22nd century write the history of 20th century architecture, American postmodernism of the 1980s and 1990s will prove a mere footnote. Instead, they will devote big chapters (or holo-experiences…..
) to European hi-tech and organi-tech, and the central role that the Architectural Association played in catalyzing genuine design creativity. For instance Zaha Hadid, an architect of true genius, will be remembered, whereas American postmodernists like Venturi & Rauch, Robert Graves, and Robert Stern will be forgotten – see http://www.zaha-hadid.com , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaha_Hadid , and http://www.dw.com/en/the-incredible-architecture-of-zaha-hadid/a-18824053 :Here comes the punch-line.
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biotect
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3. Rogers and Foster at Yale: THINK MORE!
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During the early 1960's the British architects Richard Rogers and Norman Foster both attended the Yale school of architecture on Fellowships, where they did advanced, M.arch degrees -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Rogers and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Norman_Foster,_Baron_Foster_of_Thames_Bank . There emerged a bit of a rivalry between the Brits and the Americans at the school, with the Americans claiming as their motto, "Do more!!”, whereas the Brits claimed as their motto, "Think more!!" In effect, the Americans were just mechanically pumping out tons of drawings, whereas Rogers and Foster were really trying to re-think what buildings might become instead.
One immediate spin-off of that re-thinking was the Pompidou Center in Paris, which Richard Rogers designed together with the equally gifted and path-breaking Italian architect, Renzo Piano – see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Centre_Georges_Pompidou and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renzo_Piano . This Pompidou Center reflects Rogers' intellectual obsession with the distinction between "served" and "servant" spaces, a distinction he picked up from Louis Kahn at Yale -- see https://members.architecture.com/cu...9&Type=O&CaseRef=71189&imgName=n52962_209.jpg . The architects realized that if they put all the "servant" systems on the outside -- all the pipes and tubing -- they would end up with vast, wonderfully expansive, uninterrupted interior spaces that could remain flexible, easily reconfigured/repurposed:
In effect, the Pompidou center is one vast temporary exhibition space, with huge floors that have no permanent walls. Personally, I love the Pompidou Center, and I loved using the library there when I lived in Paris.
Amongst Roger's more recent significant achievements, he designed the Lloyds building in London, already shown in a video above, and the European Court of Human Rights – see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lloyd 's_building and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ European_Court_of_Human_Rights_building . Renzo Piano has also had a stellar career, and one of his more recent designs is a music park in Rome, Europe's largest, with huge biomorphic concert halls, shown in another video above -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parco_della_Musica . Norman Foster went on to design the astonishing Reichstag Dome in Berlin, and the equally astonishing London City Hall, shown in more videos above – again see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_dome and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ City_Hall,_London .
In short, the best design is about thinking too, not just drawing. When he started out as a student at the Architectural Association, Richard Rogers could not draw for *******. He was really bad at it. But Rogers will go down in the history books as one of the most important architects of the 20th century, and as far more important than any American postmodernist who knows how to create pretty watercolor renderings. Again, the only possible exception here is Frank Gehry: Gehry is in the same league as Foster and Rogers. And these architects will go down in the history books because they thought more.
Many design professional know this, but the public tends not to: a great deal of design is about a kind of thinking that is more “psychological”, "sociological", “political”, and in the case of transportation design, "operational" and "logistical". Unfortunately, in the design professions many still don't have enough of a background in the social sciences, with the possible exception of urban planners. So they simply could not do what I've done in this thread, namely, think through the actual operating contexts of the TerraLiner in terms of maps that chart indices like GDP per capita, the HDI (the human development index), the Peace Index, and so on. Here not even real-world experience is all that relevant, if one lacks the necessary social-scientific tools and frameworks to understand in a rigorous and nuanced way what one is experiencing.
In short, even if some readers of this thread think that it doesn't seem to have much to do with design, because I haven't posted my drawings, models, or CAD, I figure that readers who truly understand what design excellence requires, will know otherwise.
LoRoad, you call it “paralysis by analysis”, whereas I simply call it thinking. What would you have me do instead? Just produce tons of drawings, and end up with a vehicle system that looks like the Kiravan? A vehicle system that can't even fetch groceries in a Third-World market? See posts #1566 and #1567, at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...igid-Torsion-Free-Frame?p=1924009#post1924009 and http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...igid-Torsion-Free-Frame?p=1924012#post1924012 . Or produce hundreds of drawings of vehicles that look only marginally different from the kinds of Actionmobil and UniCat expedition motorhomes that Armadillo simply copied? Or the countless other expedition vehicle products out there, products that are at best mere incremental improvements upon what was built just a few years earlier?
If genuine innovation is the target, thinking is required.
It has then surprised me that a number of design professionals have written in private, stating things like,
"I had three weeks of holiday, and decided to spend one week reading your thread from beginning to end. I thoroughly enjoyed it, and I hope you can keep up the good work! You are definitely on the right track, and I hope you can maintain the same level of quality and enthusiasm!"
That's more or less a synthesis of 4 emails from different designers.
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In sum, I am a European Designer. I think more.
All best wishes,
Biotect
PS1 -- Just a quick question. Were you/are you building a camper box with BlissMobil? If you are, would you know what make of Watermaker they typically use? Are you having one installed as well?
PS2 -- Note that I wrote the above in order to bring a wide range of readers and thread participants up to speed. It is not obvious what I have been doing in this thread, or why. So your swipe at "thinking" (what you call "paralysis by analysis") gave me a good excuse to defend the same.....:sombrero:
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biotect
Designer
Hi Unirover,
Thought you had disappeared after it was made clear that this thread has no interest in mud-tracks, Unimogs, and slumming desperately poor, Fourth-World countries in Africa.....:sombrero:...
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1. Live and Let Live?
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Just curious: why bother continue reading a thread whose content did not interest you over a year ago? Or why opine about the thread with a disparaging comment, if what it contains does not interest you? Nobody is obligated to read anything that anyone posts on here on ExPo. Web discussion forums are not like print magazines or TV programs: the presence of a large section packed with information can be easily and completely ignored. On the menu of possible threads to follow in "General Camper Discussion and Modification", this thread is listed as just one of many, its title-block occupying no more space on a screen than a short thread that has only two entries. You don't have to click on title-block, "Fully Integrated MAN or TATRA 6x6....."
Personally, I try to follow the rule that unless my actions and words are constructive, it's better to refrain and restrain. After all, a thread like this is not harming anyone, it provides diversionary amusement for many, and no doubt it's just another form of content that helps ExPo maintain its user base, and hence advertising revenue. If this thread is not to your taste, well, you already made that clear a year ago. Why the need to drop in now and again just to restate your ire?
Also take note that I tend not to participate in any other ExPo threads. Although I would like to, I simply don't have the time for it. So my particularly "voluminous" style of posting is found mainly here and in "Camper Thermal Engineering", both of them threads that I created myself. Hence, it's very easy to avoid biotect's "voice" on ExPo if one wants to. My user-name "biotect" rarely appears elsewhere. So why bother disparaging my approach in a context that I created, a context that you are not obligated to read?
In an earlier post you claimed to practice an ethic something to the effect of "live and let live". Have you now abandoned that policy?
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2. The Absurdity of Linguistic Conservatism and Determinism in Transportation Design
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Here it should be said that I partly agree with your statement above, which is precisely why I wrote post #1568 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...igid-Torsion-Free-Frame?p=1924014#post1924014 , in which I most emphatically insisted that the TerraLiner should not be imagined as a traditional "Expedition Motorhome", but rather, as more akin to a mobile beach house.
Or better, as a kind of "crossover" vehicle, one that combines the rigid, torsion-free base chassis of a MAN or ASTRA-Iveco + the fully integrated layout and interior space of an American Class-A + the spacious decks of vehicles that are best described as mobile houses. For mobile houses, see http://chachanova.com/mobile-house/ , http://www.dwell.com/house-tours/slideshow/upwardly-mobile-homes?slide=1&paused=true , http://inhabitat.com/vodafones-mobile-blogger-home/voda02/ , http://dornob.com/elegant-modern-prefab-homes-defy-portable-house-type/ , http://www.aleutia.com/solar-container/ , http://www.cnet.com/news/samsung-solar-powered-school-shines-in-rural-south-africa/ , and http://techdestroyers.com/10-unique-designs-of-traveling-house/ ; and see especially http://minimallife.co/minimal-life/1040/ , http://minimallife.co/minimal-life/918/ , http://minimallife.co/minimal-life/472/ , http://minimallife.co/minimal-life/1620/ , http://minimallife.co/minimal-life/964/ , http://minimallife.co/minimal-life/581/ , http://minimallife.co/minimal-life/836/ , http://minimallife.co/minimal-life/676/ , and http://minimallife.co/minimal-life/3175/ .
In the world of transporation design there is tremendous value in exploring the possibility of "crossover" vehicles, vehicles that combine two seemingly disparate vehicle types. Indeed, some of the very best and most innovative automotive designs are deliberate “cross-overs”, most famously, car/SUV cross-overs – see http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/topten/top-10-crossovers/ . Cross-contamination between vehicle types is a good thing, not a bad thing, and in many ways it's the primary source of inspiration and innovation in transportation design.
But before a new name for an innovative vehicle gets established and stabilizes, what are we to call vehicles that are not quite cars, and not quite SUVs? Or what are we to call the TerraLiner, if it's not quite a "typical" sort of expedition motorhome, of the kind built by UniCat or Actionmobil? The TerraLiner won't be just an American Class-A motorhome either, because it will be able to drive into the middle of a farmer's field, and back out again. The TerraLiner will have an underlying chassis frame that is a good deal more rigid and robust than even most "expedition" motorhomes, and it will have big Michelin XZL tires, or the equivalent, depending on what seems best for the road conditions at hand. Tthe TerraLiner will be more than merely First-World capable, it will be able to drive on bad roads, and it will be able to boondock for months, completely autonomous in terms of water, power, and sewage. No currently existing American Class-A motorhome fits this description. So as I already signaled at the bottom of post #1568, there is probably no alternative to calling the TerraLiner an expedition motorhome, at least for now, because no better word exists.
Furthermore, if a given innovative vehicle does not "fit" into pre-existing terminology, should we then say that a design exercise that tries to develop such a vehicle is illegitimate, for that reason alone? Should we say that the only legitimate vehicle designs that anyone has permission to explore, are designs that already have pre-existing names, designs that are easily classifiable in terms of pre-existing linguistic categories?
f you want to suggest that, unirover, then in effect you want to destroy the very possibility of innovation in transportation design. If you want to say that, then you want our already existing linguistic categories to determine what design explorations are "permitted" and "not permitted". You want our language to determine our visual and engineering thought, instead of the other way around. if you want to say that, in effect you would be a linguistic determinist or even a linguistic fascist, someone who wants to insist something like:
"Transportation Design must respect pre-existing linguistic categories!! No crossovers allowed!!"
I suspect that you probably haven't thought through the very authoritarian and anti-innovation implications of your linguistic position. But there they are.
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Thought you had disappeared after it was made clear that this thread has no interest in mud-tracks, Unimogs, and slumming desperately poor, Fourth-World countries in Africa.....:sombrero:...
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1. Live and Let Live?
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Just curious: why bother continue reading a thread whose content did not interest you over a year ago? Or why opine about the thread with a disparaging comment, if what it contains does not interest you? Nobody is obligated to read anything that anyone posts on here on ExPo. Web discussion forums are not like print magazines or TV programs: the presence of a large section packed with information can be easily and completely ignored. On the menu of possible threads to follow in "General Camper Discussion and Modification", this thread is listed as just one of many, its title-block occupying no more space on a screen than a short thread that has only two entries. You don't have to click on title-block, "Fully Integrated MAN or TATRA 6x6....."
Personally, I try to follow the rule that unless my actions and words are constructive, it's better to refrain and restrain. After all, a thread like this is not harming anyone, it provides diversionary amusement for many, and no doubt it's just another form of content that helps ExPo maintain its user base, and hence advertising revenue. If this thread is not to your taste, well, you already made that clear a year ago. Why the need to drop in now and again just to restate your ire?
Also take note that I tend not to participate in any other ExPo threads. Although I would like to, I simply don't have the time for it. So my particularly "voluminous" style of posting is found mainly here and in "Camper Thermal Engineering", both of them threads that I created myself. Hence, it's very easy to avoid biotect's "voice" on ExPo if one wants to. My user-name "biotect" rarely appears elsewhere. So why bother disparaging my approach in a context that I created, a context that you are not obligated to read?
In an earlier post you claimed to practice an ethic something to the effect of "live and let live". Have you now abandoned that policy?
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2. The Absurdity of Linguistic Conservatism and Determinism in Transportation Design
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Here it should be said that I partly agree with your statement above, which is precisely why I wrote post #1568 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...igid-Torsion-Free-Frame?p=1924014#post1924014 , in which I most emphatically insisted that the TerraLiner should not be imagined as a traditional "Expedition Motorhome", but rather, as more akin to a mobile beach house.
Or better, as a kind of "crossover" vehicle, one that combines the rigid, torsion-free base chassis of a MAN or ASTRA-Iveco + the fully integrated layout and interior space of an American Class-A + the spacious decks of vehicles that are best described as mobile houses. For mobile houses, see http://chachanova.com/mobile-house/ , http://www.dwell.com/house-tours/slideshow/upwardly-mobile-homes?slide=1&paused=true , http://inhabitat.com/vodafones-mobile-blogger-home/voda02/ , http://dornob.com/elegant-modern-prefab-homes-defy-portable-house-type/ , http://www.aleutia.com/solar-container/ , http://www.cnet.com/news/samsung-solar-powered-school-shines-in-rural-south-africa/ , and http://techdestroyers.com/10-unique-designs-of-traveling-house/ ; and see especially http://minimallife.co/minimal-life/1040/ , http://minimallife.co/minimal-life/918/ , http://minimallife.co/minimal-life/472/ , http://minimallife.co/minimal-life/1620/ , http://minimallife.co/minimal-life/964/ , http://minimallife.co/minimal-life/581/ , http://minimallife.co/minimal-life/836/ , http://minimallife.co/minimal-life/676/ , and http://minimallife.co/minimal-life/3175/ .
In the world of transporation design there is tremendous value in exploring the possibility of "crossover" vehicles, vehicles that combine two seemingly disparate vehicle types. Indeed, some of the very best and most innovative automotive designs are deliberate “cross-overs”, most famously, car/SUV cross-overs – see http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/topten/top-10-crossovers/ . Cross-contamination between vehicle types is a good thing, not a bad thing, and in many ways it's the primary source of inspiration and innovation in transportation design.
But before a new name for an innovative vehicle gets established and stabilizes, what are we to call vehicles that are not quite cars, and not quite SUVs? Or what are we to call the TerraLiner, if it's not quite a "typical" sort of expedition motorhome, of the kind built by UniCat or Actionmobil? The TerraLiner won't be just an American Class-A motorhome either, because it will be able to drive into the middle of a farmer's field, and back out again. The TerraLiner will have an underlying chassis frame that is a good deal more rigid and robust than even most "expedition" motorhomes, and it will have big Michelin XZL tires, or the equivalent, depending on what seems best for the road conditions at hand. Tthe TerraLiner will be more than merely First-World capable, it will be able to drive on bad roads, and it will be able to boondock for months, completely autonomous in terms of water, power, and sewage. No currently existing American Class-A motorhome fits this description. So as I already signaled at the bottom of post #1568, there is probably no alternative to calling the TerraLiner an expedition motorhome, at least for now, because no better word exists.
Furthermore, if a given innovative vehicle does not "fit" into pre-existing terminology, should we then say that a design exercise that tries to develop such a vehicle is illegitimate, for that reason alone? Should we say that the only legitimate vehicle designs that anyone has permission to explore, are designs that already have pre-existing names, designs that are easily classifiable in terms of pre-existing linguistic categories?
f you want to suggest that, unirover, then in effect you want to destroy the very possibility of innovation in transportation design. If you want to say that, then you want our already existing linguistic categories to determine what design explorations are "permitted" and "not permitted". You want our language to determine our visual and engineering thought, instead of the other way around. if you want to say that, in effect you would be a linguistic determinist or even a linguistic fascist, someone who wants to insist something like:
"Transportation Design must respect pre-existing linguistic categories!! No crossovers allowed!!"
I suspect that you probably haven't thought through the very authoritarian and anti-innovation implications of your linguistic position. But there they are.
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biotect
Designer
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3. Motorhome Design versus Sports-Car Design
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It also can't really be said that the “motorhome” is a fixed vehicle type whose design has stabilized, with a few exemplars that might now be considered iconic. One could say this even less about the world of expedition motorhomes.
The reason why motorhome-design is so interesting, is precisely because it's still so unstable and still experimental. Motorhomes, expedition and otherwise, are interesting precisely because the envelope is constantly being pushed in terms of both technology and design. You can try to insist upon linguistic purity, unirover, describing as "expedition motorhomes" only those vehicles that you personally think deserve the name, and no others. But this kind of linguistic conservatism, in the world of expedition motorhome design in particular, strikes me as a bit daft.
The contrast here might be the world of sports-car design, where since WW2, design evolution has been mostly incremental, at least until the recent advent of electric-motor sports-cars with instant torque. But even with the advent of electric, the basic “objective” of sports-car design hasn't changed much, and there's not that much to think through logistically or sociologically, aside from charging stations. Some will even argue that at the level of aesthetics, the most iconic sports car of all time remains the Jaguar XK-120, nominated to the short list of 26 “cars of the century”, and first manufactured way back in 1948 – see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_of_the_Century , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaguar_XK120 , http://www.jag-lovers.org/brochures/section_xk120.html :
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Side note to thjakits: the Jaguar XK-120 is yet another example of superb, absolutely beautiful, curvilinear automotive design. One of my favorites. Again, it's pre-CAD, pre-wedge, pre-rectilinear, and might still be viewed as belonging to the "Art Deco" period.
Immediately below is a terrific movie that features both a Jaguar XK-120 and a young Joan Collins, filmed on the island of Grenada, a movie titled “Island in the Sun” -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Island_in_the_Sun_(film) and http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0050549/ :
For its time the movie was very progressive and/or realistic regarding issues like colonialism, race, miscegenation, adultery, and pre-marital sex, and was a major box-office success. James Mason plays the lucky, petulant, colonial pseudo-aristocrat who not only has a beautiful wife and drives a beautiful XK-120 sports car, but also lives on a wonderful Caribbean estate. And yet he still feels sorry for himself, and at one point in the film he more or less rapes his own wife.
There's no pleasing some people, especially those living out the last micro-seconds of the British Empire's sunset…..:ylsmoke:
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4. Motorhome Design: Wide Open Territory
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Back to unirover: the general point is that motorhome design is wide-open territory, especially expedition motorhome design.
Even if there might be some value in insisting on “design conservatism” and sticking to the “tried and tested” format of sports-cars that have been created thus far, a similar argument cannot be made in the world of expedition motorhomes. A while back Aspire tried to make exactly this kind of argument. Aspire claimed something to the effect that if sticking a rectilinear camper box on top of a construction truck using a three-point or four-point pivoting subframe has worked so far, then why upset the apple cart? Why explore the possibility of fully integrated design on a torsion-free frame, when Actionmobil and UniCat seem to have nice businesses going, with reasonably happy customers?
Aspire and I got into a bit of a spat – see pages 53 to 55, from post #527 onwards at http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/124789-Fully-Integrated-MAN-or-TATRA-6x6-or-8x8-Expedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame?p=1655585#post1655585 . And the vehemence with which Aspire seemed to want to torpedo the most basic premise of this thread – that it's worth exploring how the format used by Actionmobil or UniCat might be improved or completely superseded – made me wonder whether perhaps he actually works for one of these companies..... ... It seemed possible that Aspire wanted to torpedo the thread because it challenged the sufficiency of the solutions they had worked out so far, solutions to the problem of truly global travel by motorhome.
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CONTINUED IN NEX POST
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CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST
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3. Motorhome Design versus Sports-Car Design
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It also can't really be said that the “motorhome” is a fixed vehicle type whose design has stabilized, with a few exemplars that might now be considered iconic. One could say this even less about the world of expedition motorhomes.
The reason why motorhome-design is so interesting, is precisely because it's still so unstable and still experimental. Motorhomes, expedition and otherwise, are interesting precisely because the envelope is constantly being pushed in terms of both technology and design. You can try to insist upon linguistic purity, unirover, describing as "expedition motorhomes" only those vehicles that you personally think deserve the name, and no others. But this kind of linguistic conservatism, in the world of expedition motorhome design in particular, strikes me as a bit daft.
The contrast here might be the world of sports-car design, where since WW2, design evolution has been mostly incremental, at least until the recent advent of electric-motor sports-cars with instant torque. But even with the advent of electric, the basic “objective” of sports-car design hasn't changed much, and there's not that much to think through logistically or sociologically, aside from charging stations. Some will even argue that at the level of aesthetics, the most iconic sports car of all time remains the Jaguar XK-120, nominated to the short list of 26 “cars of the century”, and first manufactured way back in 1948 – see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_of_the_Century , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaguar_XK120 , http://www.jag-lovers.org/brochures/section_xk120.html :
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Side note to thjakits: the Jaguar XK-120 is yet another example of superb, absolutely beautiful, curvilinear automotive design. One of my favorites. Again, it's pre-CAD, pre-wedge, pre-rectilinear, and might still be viewed as belonging to the "Art Deco" period.
Immediately below is a terrific movie that features both a Jaguar XK-120 and a young Joan Collins, filmed on the island of Grenada, a movie titled “Island in the Sun” -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Island_in_the_Sun_(film) and http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0050549/ :
For its time the movie was very progressive and/or realistic regarding issues like colonialism, race, miscegenation, adultery, and pre-marital sex, and was a major box-office success. James Mason plays the lucky, petulant, colonial pseudo-aristocrat who not only has a beautiful wife and drives a beautiful XK-120 sports car, but also lives on a wonderful Caribbean estate. And yet he still feels sorry for himself, and at one point in the film he more or less rapes his own wife.
There's no pleasing some people, especially those living out the last micro-seconds of the British Empire's sunset…..:ylsmoke:
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4. Motorhome Design: Wide Open Territory
*********************************************
Back to unirover: the general point is that motorhome design is wide-open territory, especially expedition motorhome design.
Even if there might be some value in insisting on “design conservatism” and sticking to the “tried and tested” format of sports-cars that have been created thus far, a similar argument cannot be made in the world of expedition motorhomes. A while back Aspire tried to make exactly this kind of argument. Aspire claimed something to the effect that if sticking a rectilinear camper box on top of a construction truck using a three-point or four-point pivoting subframe has worked so far, then why upset the apple cart? Why explore the possibility of fully integrated design on a torsion-free frame, when Actionmobil and UniCat seem to have nice businesses going, with reasonably happy customers?
Aspire and I got into a bit of a spat – see pages 53 to 55, from post #527 onwards at http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/124789-Fully-Integrated-MAN-or-TATRA-6x6-or-8x8-Expedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame?p=1655585#post1655585 . And the vehemence with which Aspire seemed to want to torpedo the most basic premise of this thread – that it's worth exploring how the format used by Actionmobil or UniCat might be improved or completely superseded – made me wonder whether perhaps he actually works for one of these companies.....
... It seemed possible that Aspire wanted to torpedo the thread because it challenged the sufficiency of the solutions they had worked out so far, solutions to the problem of truly global travel by motorhome.*********************************************
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biotect
Designer
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5. In globally capable motorhome design, "sojourning" is a design goal every bit as legitimate as "exploring"
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In my book, a genuine solution to the problem of global travel by motorhome means designing not just for exploring, but also designing for multi-month sojourning, i.e. "full-timing" in a motorhome that often becomes the primary residence for an adventurous and active couple who are retired, and who have plenty of free time on their hands. For extended discussion of the difference between these two equally legitimate but very distinct goals for global travel by motorhome, see posts #1567 and #1568 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...gid-Torsion-Free-Frame?p=1924012#post1924012a and http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...igid-Torsion-Free-Frame?p=1924014#post1924014 .
Many participants here on ExPo are middle-aged, and so they make the mistaken assumption that the only kind of travel by globally capable motorhome that anyone should be interested in, is the kind of travel that they personally would want to do. In the case of middle-aged participants who still have to work for a living, and who do not have considerable financial resources, this typically means zipping through countries quickly; accumulating as many country-flags on the sides their "expedition" vehicles as possible; exploring as many remote backroads and wilderness areas as possible; and consuming as much diesel fuel as possible. In short, "exploring" and not "sojourning".
But I suspect that there is a very strong age-correlation between different sizes of motorhome, and different age-cohorts. Middle-aged people usually do not have the financial resources necessary to buy an expensive Class-A motorhome, nor do they have the free time available that would justify the expense. Even if they decide to take a “sabbatical” from their working lives and explore for a few years, their primary objective in those years will be exactly “exploring”, and not “sojourning”. As such, they will probably be very oriented towards quantitative country-accumulation: seeing as many countries as they can, before they return to the world of work. See for instance Nyathi's itinerary, at http://foleysv.com/fellow-overlanders , http://www.expeditionoverland.com , http://www.expeditionoverland.com/preparation.htm , http://www.expeditionoverland.com/the_vehicle.htm , http://www.expeditionoverland.com/the_route.htm , http://www.expeditionoverland.com/journal.htm , http://www.expeditionoverland.com/africa_1.htm , http://www.expeditionoverland.com/australasia.htm , http://www.expeditionoverland.com/europe_2.htm .
Nyathi saw 62 countries and travelled 120,000 km over the course of two years, and in my book, even this amounts to “fast travel”. For me, even this amounts to mere quantitative country-accumulation. Just do the math: 104 weeks divided by 62 countries is 1.678 weeks per country, or 12 days per country on average. Yuck, and double-yuck.
For instance, from what I've seen of Spain so far, I could easily imagine touring just Spain for a year, and always seeing something new and interesting. I haven't been to Latin America yet, but even still I could imagine touring Latin America for 6 years, and always experiencing something new and different at least three or four times a day. It took me at least 6 months in total to see everything in Venice that I wanted to see, and at least 5 years to reach a point where I began to feel as if I'd seen a substantial proportion of Italy. Granted, Italy has more UNESCO World Heritage sites than any other country; Italy has more objects of historical, cultural, or artistic value than it has currently living people; and according to UNESCO, Italy has 60 % of the world's art treasures – see http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/stat and http://www.kcl.ac.uk/artshums/depts/mlc/lrc/language-resources/italian.aspx . But Italy aside, I still cannot fathom the value of just whizzing through any country, and most countries on earth strike me as worth at least a month or more, and in many cases, years.
Don't get me wrong. On my own view Nyathi is by far the most elegant, evocative, and downright beautiful Landrover conversion that Foley in the UK has yet produced – see http://foleysv.com , http://foleysv.com/land-rover-conversions and http://foleysv.com/land-rover-conversions/land-rover-130-defender . Or, for that matter, that I have personally seen anywhere. For me, Nyathi is the very archetype of the overlanding Landrover, and one of the desktop images on my MacBook Pro is a photograph of Nyathi. Perhaps more about Nytahi in a later posting series, in which I compare Nyathi to Pinzgauers and Casa Azul.....
But whizzing through a country like India in just a month? I honestly can't see the point. One will see lots of asphalt, and little else, if only because India is a continent, and it will take days just to cross it, even driving continuously without stopping.....:smiley_drive:..
On the other hand, clearly a market does exist for "fast travel" expedition motorhomes, otherwise lots of middle-aged people would not be buying mid-sized Unimogs, and UniCat would not have a reasonably viable business model.
Still, the larger point stands. Let's face it, the solutions arrived at by UniCat, Actionmobil, and at least half a dozen other fabricators, have so far been “ersatz”. They have been rather experimental, purely bespoke explorations of what is still relatively uncharted territory, from a design point of view. It's simply wrong to claim that there already exist substantial design precedents for an overlanding motorhome that a wise designer absolutely must follow, let alone iconic exemplars towards which a wise designer should show due “respect”. It's even more wrong to insist upon linguistic purity in a design area that is still so experimental. Motorhome design – and especially expedition motorhome design – is wide open territory, and that's precisely what makes it so incredibly interesting.
If my exploration of "crossover" possibilities at the bigger end of globally-capable motorhome design territory disturbs you linguistically, unirover, then hey, nothing obligates you to read this thread.....
All best wishes,
Biotect
CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST
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5. In globally capable motorhome design, "sojourning" is a design goal every bit as legitimate as "exploring"
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In my book, a genuine solution to the problem of global travel by motorhome means designing not just for exploring, but also designing for multi-month sojourning, i.e. "full-timing" in a motorhome that often becomes the primary residence for an adventurous and active couple who are retired, and who have plenty of free time on their hands. For extended discussion of the difference between these two equally legitimate but very distinct goals for global travel by motorhome, see posts #1567 and #1568 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...gid-Torsion-Free-Frame?p=1924012#post1924012a and http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...igid-Torsion-Free-Frame?p=1924014#post1924014 .
Many participants here on ExPo are middle-aged, and so they make the mistaken assumption that the only kind of travel by globally capable motorhome that anyone should be interested in, is the kind of travel that they personally would want to do. In the case of middle-aged participants who still have to work for a living, and who do not have considerable financial resources, this typically means zipping through countries quickly; accumulating as many country-flags on the sides their "expedition" vehicles as possible; exploring as many remote backroads and wilderness areas as possible; and consuming as much diesel fuel as possible. In short, "exploring" and not "sojourning".
But I suspect that there is a very strong age-correlation between different sizes of motorhome, and different age-cohorts. Middle-aged people usually do not have the financial resources necessary to buy an expensive Class-A motorhome, nor do they have the free time available that would justify the expense. Even if they decide to take a “sabbatical” from their working lives and explore for a few years, their primary objective in those years will be exactly “exploring”, and not “sojourning”. As such, they will probably be very oriented towards quantitative country-accumulation: seeing as many countries as they can, before they return to the world of work. See for instance Nyathi's itinerary, at http://foleysv.com/fellow-overlanders , http://www.expeditionoverland.com , http://www.expeditionoverland.com/preparation.htm , http://www.expeditionoverland.com/the_vehicle.htm , http://www.expeditionoverland.com/the_route.htm , http://www.expeditionoverland.com/journal.htm , http://www.expeditionoverland.com/africa_1.htm , http://www.expeditionoverland.com/australasia.htm , http://www.expeditionoverland.com/europe_2.htm .
Nyathi saw 62 countries and travelled 120,000 km over the course of two years, and in my book, even this amounts to “fast travel”. For me, even this amounts to mere quantitative country-accumulation. Just do the math: 104 weeks divided by 62 countries is 1.678 weeks per country, or 12 days per country on average. Yuck, and double-yuck.
For instance, from what I've seen of Spain so far, I could easily imagine touring just Spain for a year, and always seeing something new and interesting. I haven't been to Latin America yet, but even still I could imagine touring Latin America for 6 years, and always experiencing something new and different at least three or four times a day. It took me at least 6 months in total to see everything in Venice that I wanted to see, and at least 5 years to reach a point where I began to feel as if I'd seen a substantial proportion of Italy. Granted, Italy has more UNESCO World Heritage sites than any other country; Italy has more objects of historical, cultural, or artistic value than it has currently living people; and according to UNESCO, Italy has 60 % of the world's art treasures – see http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/stat and http://www.kcl.ac.uk/artshums/depts/mlc/lrc/language-resources/italian.aspx . But Italy aside, I still cannot fathom the value of just whizzing through any country, and most countries on earth strike me as worth at least a month or more, and in many cases, years.
Don't get me wrong. On my own view Nyathi is by far the most elegant, evocative, and downright beautiful Landrover conversion that Foley in the UK has yet produced – see http://foleysv.com , http://foleysv.com/land-rover-conversions and http://foleysv.com/land-rover-conversions/land-rover-130-defender . Or, for that matter, that I have personally seen anywhere. For me, Nyathi is the very archetype of the overlanding Landrover, and one of the desktop images on my MacBook Pro is a photograph of Nyathi. Perhaps more about Nytahi in a later posting series, in which I compare Nyathi to Pinzgauers and Casa Azul.....
But whizzing through a country like India in just a month? I honestly can't see the point. One will see lots of asphalt, and little else, if only because India is a continent, and it will take days just to cross it, even driving continuously without stopping.....:smiley_drive:..
On the other hand, clearly a market does exist for "fast travel" expedition motorhomes, otherwise lots of middle-aged people would not be buying mid-sized Unimogs, and UniCat would not have a reasonably viable business model.
Still, the larger point stands. Let's face it, the solutions arrived at by UniCat, Actionmobil, and at least half a dozen other fabricators, have so far been “ersatz”. They have been rather experimental, purely bespoke explorations of what is still relatively uncharted territory, from a design point of view. It's simply wrong to claim that there already exist substantial design precedents for an overlanding motorhome that a wise designer absolutely must follow, let alone iconic exemplars towards which a wise designer should show due “respect”. It's even more wrong to insist upon linguistic purity in a design area that is still so experimental. Motorhome design – and especially expedition motorhome design – is wide open territory, and that's precisely what makes it so incredibly interesting.
If my exploration of "crossover" possibilities at the bigger end of globally-capable motorhome design territory disturbs you linguistically, unirover, then hey, nothing obligates you to read this thread.....
All best wishes,
Biotect
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biotect
Designer
..
Now, to change the subject, and get back to the thread…..
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Hi thjaktis,
First off, I’d like to post a very upbeat, more positive series of thoughts, in which I address the very interesting link that you provided in post #1889 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/124789-Fully-Integrated-MAN-or-TATRA-6x6-or-8x8-Expedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame?p=1955964#post1955964 :
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1. Brighsun and Proterrra: Electric Trolley Buses
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Many thanks for this link to a Chinese-Australian company called Brighsun, and its new all-electric bus that can drive 1004 km on just one charge – see http://onestepoffthegrid.com.au/all...in-melbourne-heading-to-sydney-on-one-charge/ . Fascinating stuff, and I do hope they get the funding from the Australian government that they are seeking – see http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2015/s4342220.htm .
Just to be clear so that everyone knows where I am “coming from". Personally I don’t read this as a development that will eliminate the need for a diesel generator and diesel fuel for the TerraLiner, because a usably wide network of charging stations will still not exist for many decades to come. And even if high-speed electrical charging stations do begin to appear and do catch on, they may never become available in remote locations like the middle of the Sahara or Tibet, even 100 years from now.
Now thjakits, I realize full well that you were not proposing any such thing. You were not proposing that the TerraLiner should go “all electric”. Rather, your suggestion was more nuanced: you were suggesting that once batteries get this efficient, the size of the diesel generators needed to recharge the batteries can decrease accordingly. If one can drive a bus for 8 hours on a single charge, then this leaves 16 hours available every day to recharge, assuming that the electrical load drawn by camper systems leaves a “surplus” of energy available for recharging. So smaller diesel generators running for longer become the requirement, and the whole drive-train becomes that much more efficient.
Here we should note that although the standard application for all-electric buses is urban mass-transit, the mere fact that Bringsun staged their 1004 km publicity stunt as a long-distance trip from Melbourne to Sydney, creates the illusion that what’s being proposed is a new form of city-to-city, energy-autonomous all-electric bus. So to dispel that illusion, it needs to be emphasized that the various all-electric buses that are now being implemented in mass-transit contexts worldwide, are always implemented as pieces of much larger systems: mass-transit systems that include charging stations. Put simply, all-electric buses critically depend on reliable access to a carefully planned network of charging stations.
The biggest maker of all-electric transit buses in the United States – Proterra – demonstrates keen awareness of this basic fact. See http://www.proterra.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Tearsheets_ChargingTechnologies.pdf and http://www.proterra.com/wp-coNowntent/uploads/2015/05/Tearsheets_FastCharge.pdf :
[video=youtube;jw4e02Oje6w]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jw4e02Oje6w [/video] [video=youtube;dp3_zUgD6KE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dp3_zUgD6KE [/video] [video=youtube;6OxDGjnhHFM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OxDGjnhHFM [/video]
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Now, to change the subject, and get back to the thread…..
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Hi thjaktis,
First off, I’d like to post a very upbeat, more positive series of thoughts, in which I address the very interesting link that you provided in post #1889 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/124789-Fully-Integrated-MAN-or-TATRA-6x6-or-8x8-Expedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame?p=1955964#post1955964 :
Heeey Bio!
How is it goin'?!!
..........
NOW - the REAL reason for this post:
I remember, ALSO 20000 posts ago, that we discussed parallel and serial hybrid, batteries and how big a Gen-Set the Terraliner will need.
It seems my (...our collective) opinion on the state of electric power storage is a little behind the curve!
Check this: http://onestepoffthegrid.com.au/all...in-melbourne-heading-to-sydney-on-one-charge/
IF these guys can pull off a 1000km+ range full size bus - charging time won't really matter anymore, as long as you can do it within 8 hours or so.
[YOU, the owner/driver will probably need re-charging before the truck does!]
In Europe you won't legally do more than 800 km per driver/day - even with more than one driver - not much purpose to haul more than 10 hrs at a time in a PLEASURE vehicle!
[And you STILL could extend the range by keeping the SMALL gen-set running all day....]
SO - what are the implications for the Terraliner Powertrain, should you decide to pursue the FULL-ELECTRIC route?
Actual battery charge levels and speed pending, you should get away with a rather very small gen-set for a 8-hour full recharge of the 1000km+ range battery set - WHAT is the MAX, worst case scenario for the Terraliner power needs?
Pitchblack night/ total overcast
NO breeze whatsoever
-50°C
NO energies stored (hot water, battery)
To run all this at once (plus electronics and white line) - would that same power be enough to charge the battery pack in 8 hrs too?
[Remember, you hardly ever would face this situation - you won't run the washing machine and dryer when you are dead in the cold, have empty batteries and need to heat water, you also would probably see some sun light eventually and/or have some air moving]
At what I get is - you really won't need a 360-500hp to "serial drive" the Terraliner - you only need enough to charge within 8 hrs + in the worse case run a few utilities at the same time, should be nowhere near the above power-level.....
Damn! You think you got it figured out and then someone comes with this 1000+ range Electric Bus! :sombrero::sombrero:
I'd say, call your engineering buddies and tell them to go back to the drive train drawing board!!
[You might want to get an electric engineer on board asap, IC engineers become obsolete FAST:smileeek:]
Cheers all,
thjakits
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1. Brighsun and Proterrra: Electric Trolley Buses
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Many thanks for this link to a Chinese-Australian company called Brighsun, and its new all-electric bus that can drive 1004 km on just one charge – see http://onestepoffthegrid.com.au/all...in-melbourne-heading-to-sydney-on-one-charge/ . Fascinating stuff, and I do hope they get the funding from the Australian government that they are seeking – see http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2015/s4342220.htm .
Just to be clear so that everyone knows where I am “coming from". Personally I don’t read this as a development that will eliminate the need for a diesel generator and diesel fuel for the TerraLiner, because a usably wide network of charging stations will still not exist for many decades to come. And even if high-speed electrical charging stations do begin to appear and do catch on, they may never become available in remote locations like the middle of the Sahara or Tibet, even 100 years from now.
Now thjakits, I realize full well that you were not proposing any such thing. You were not proposing that the TerraLiner should go “all electric”. Rather, your suggestion was more nuanced: you were suggesting that once batteries get this efficient, the size of the diesel generators needed to recharge the batteries can decrease accordingly. If one can drive a bus for 8 hours on a single charge, then this leaves 16 hours available every day to recharge, assuming that the electrical load drawn by camper systems leaves a “surplus” of energy available for recharging. So smaller diesel generators running for longer become the requirement, and the whole drive-train becomes that much more efficient.
Here we should note that although the standard application for all-electric buses is urban mass-transit, the mere fact that Bringsun staged their 1004 km publicity stunt as a long-distance trip from Melbourne to Sydney, creates the illusion that what’s being proposed is a new form of city-to-city, energy-autonomous all-electric bus. So to dispel that illusion, it needs to be emphasized that the various all-electric buses that are now being implemented in mass-transit contexts worldwide, are always implemented as pieces of much larger systems: mass-transit systems that include charging stations. Put simply, all-electric buses critically depend on reliable access to a carefully planned network of charging stations.
The biggest maker of all-electric transit buses in the United States – Proterra – demonstrates keen awareness of this basic fact. See http://www.proterra.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Tearsheets_ChargingTechnologies.pdf and http://www.proterra.com/wp-coNowntent/uploads/2015/05/Tearsheets_FastCharge.pdf :
[video=youtube;jw4e02Oje6w]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jw4e02Oje6w [/video] [video=youtube;dp3_zUgD6KE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dp3_zUgD6KE [/video] [video=youtube;6OxDGjnhHFM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OxDGjnhHFM [/video]
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[video=youtube;Y5MOT7m8QbA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5MOT7m8QbA [/video]
When set within a historical context, this means that a contemporary all-electric transit bus is best imagined as a kind of “rail-less trolley”, or “tram type” vehicle. In effect, Proterra is selling an electric trolley bus that does not need overhead electric wires, or to use the technical term, an overhead "catenary grid" -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overhead_line . In traditional electric trolley buses electricity is sometimes drawn through a "pantograph" mounted on the roof, although an apparatus as simple as a "trolley pole" has usually sufficed -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantograph_(transport) and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_pole .
As such, Proterra's all-electric bus only represents a cost savings over the somewhat Green electric trolley buses that once operated in most western cities, to the extent that a vast system of overhead electric wires no longer needs to be installed and maintained – see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_Transit_Commission_bus_system , http://transit.toronto.on.ca/trolleybus/9005.shtml , http://transit.toronto.on.ca/trolleybus/ , and http://transit.toronto.on.ca/trolleybus/9003.shtml :
But now instead a vast system of charging stations will need to be installed and maintained…..
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[video=youtube;Y5MOT7m8QbA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5MOT7m8QbA [/video]
When set within a historical context, this means that a contemporary all-electric transit bus is best imagined as a kind of “rail-less trolley”, or “tram type” vehicle. In effect, Proterra is selling an electric trolley bus that does not need overhead electric wires, or to use the technical term, an overhead "catenary grid" -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overhead_line . In traditional electric trolley buses electricity is sometimes drawn through a "pantograph" mounted on the roof, although an apparatus as simple as a "trolley pole" has usually sufficed -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantograph_(transport) and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_pole .
As such, Proterra's all-electric bus only represents a cost savings over the somewhat Green electric trolley buses that once operated in most western cities, to the extent that a vast system of overhead electric wires no longer needs to be installed and maintained – see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_Transit_Commission_bus_system , http://transit.toronto.on.ca/trolleybus/9005.shtml , http://transit.toronto.on.ca/trolleybus/ , and http://transit.toronto.on.ca/trolleybus/9003.shtml :
But now instead a vast system of charging stations will need to be installed and maintained…..
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2. Are All-Electric Buses even remotely New?
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I know that it's a bit deflationary to characterize all-electirc buses as, in truth, really just glorified trolley buses, and that this grabs some of the wind out of the sails of Green activists who want to promote “all-electric bus". But it’s a simple historical fact that the public transportation systems of most western cities were much more electrified 60 years ago than they are today, because they still had electricity-driven trolley buses in place. Not just Toronto, Canada, but so too London had a huge system of electric trolley buses until the 1960’s, as did Rome and many smaller Italian cities. Milan’s trolley-bus system is still in place, and was never abandoned.
Most cities in Germany and France once had trolley-buses, and there are still 14 and 15 electric trolley bus systems in place respectively in Italy and Switzerland, and no less than 89 systems still operating in Russia. Indeed, electricity-driven trolley-buses have long been implemented worldwide as a form of mass-transit. See http://www.trolleybus.net/subhtml/trams-trolleybuses.htm , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolleybuses_in_London , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolleybus , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bus , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolleybuses_in_Rome , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolleybuses_in_Milan , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_trolleybus_systems_in_Italy , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_trolleybus_systems , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolleybus_usage_by_country , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_trolleybus_systems_in_the_United_Kingdom , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_trolleybus_systems_in_Germany , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_trolleybus_systems_in_France , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_trolley_bus_systems_in_Canada , and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_trolleybus_systems_in_the_United_States .
Rome recently re-introduced trolley buses, but of the battery-driven rechargeable kind as per Proterra, and these trolley buses have proven so successful that Rome is expanding the system – see http://www.lrta.org/TramForward/TAUT Sept 338 tram v trolleybus.pdf . There are now Green activists in just about every city in Europe calling for the return of electric trolley buses, especially in smaller cities that cannot afford tram, streetcar, or subway systems that required building lots of expensive, specialized fixed infrastructure – see for instance http://www.standard.co.uk/news/tran...make-a-return-to-londons-streets-8423181.html , http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1476637 and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trams_in_Milan . The previous peak was about 400 electric trolley-bus systems worldwide in the mid-1950s, and we are now once again close to this peak historical level, with over 350 systems worldwide.
The very best web-article summarizing the past, the present, and the future of all-electric trolley-buses, can be found at http://www.tbus.org.uk/article.htm . It’s superb article, and includes discussion of recent high-tech developments like “dual mode buses”, “guided buses”, and “rubber tired trams” -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual-mode_bus , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual-mode_transit , and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guided_bus . But it’s only suitable for more academic types, and/or truly dedicated transportation freaks…..:sombrero:
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3. Are All-Electric Buses Truly Green?
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Note that even in Milan, since the 1990’s the tram and trolley-bus system has been making a “comeback”, although again, in Milan trolley-buses were never completely abandoned. With respect to Milan in particular, there is a good PDF at http://www.trolley-project.eu/filea...lleybuses_-_Main_Features_and_Experiences.pdf , which provides an overview of Milan's trolley system, its rolling stock, and both the pluses and minuses of electric trolley buses.
On the downside: (1) electric trolley buses can cost up to twice as much as more ordinary diesel buses; (2) their running costs are higher, because electricity is more expensive per km than diesel in Italy; (3) their repair costs are higher; (4) the fixed infrastructure of a catenary grid of overhead electric wires is costly to maintain; and (5) an aerial system of overhead electric lines is unsightly, which is one of the main reasons why Rome decided to go with the battery-driven kind when it recently re-introduced electric trolley buses:
Electric trolley buses disappeared in many cities in the 1960’s for a one simple reason: cost. Diesel buses were cheaper to buy, cheaper to run, and cheaper to maintain and repair. All of this is worth remembering by those like myself who are super-enthusiastic about hybrid technologies.
There is the added irony pointed out very succinctly by a MAN executive, Franz Redwitz, in the following excellent interview. If the electricity used by a tram or an electric trolley bus comes from coal-fired power stations, then how “Green” is the bus, really? The carbon footprint of the electric bus will probably prove even worse than a diesel-powered or CNG bus, a bus that converts fossil fuel to energy directly on the spot. The energy used by a tram or an electric trolley bus first has to go through a power grid, a grid in which much of the energy is lost at every stage of transition/transmission. In other words, if a fossil-fuel fired power station generates the electricity that powers the buses, then we would be getting many fewer transportation miles relative to the production of a given amount of CO2 gas. If we go with an all-electric trolley bus system, as opposed to a more traditional diesel-bus system, we actually consume more fossil fuel, not less.
This is quite something, if you think about it: an all-electric trolley bus may actually be less truly “Green” than a traditional diesel-powered bus. Not just “as Green”, and not merely “less Green than one might have hoped”. But positively less Green than a traditional diesel bus.
I will return to this interview again when discussing MAN hybrid technologies. But it’s so insightful, and yet so compact, that it deserves to be posted a few times in this thread – see http://www.corporate.man.eu/en/pres...r/MAN-and-NEOPLAN-at-Busworld-2013-84678.html and Download . I’ve highlighted the sections relevant to trolley buses in green, and the killer sentences that question the “Green” credentials of all-electric buses in red:
Granted, this executive speaks for MAN, which is not currently producing trolley buses, neither the older kind that pulled electricity from an overhead wire, nor the newer kind that have rechargeable batteries. So it's not surprising that this executive should slam a kind of bus that MAN neither makes nor sells.
It also seems unlikely that MAN will ever agree that electric trolley buses are economically viable, because as suggested above, they have always cost more to buy and operate than diesel buses. The manufacturers who currently make them, for instance Volvo, Iveco, and a long list of obscure east-European, Russian, and Chinese brands, have been supplying a very specialized niche-market -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_trolleybus_manufacturers , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_electric_bus_makers_and_models , and http://www.theguardian.com/environm...s-electric-bus-prepares-for-service-in-london .
This seems to be a market in which some transit operators are willing to pay a premium, because electric trolley buses mean reduced noise and air pollution in congested urban areas. Even though electric trolley buses may not be as "Green" as diesel or CNG from a wider point of view, i.e. in terms of the overall CO2 emissions required to run them, if those CO2 emissions are being produced by a fossil-fuel-burning power plant located somewhere else, distant from the city, then that's much preferred to having buses generating pollution closer to home, in an urban area. Because trolley buses are "all electric", quiet, and produce no immediately visible pollution, they will at least seem to be more Green to urban residents. So residents in many cities are willing to pay a premium for the illusion of close-to-where-I-live-and-work Green virtue. An urban resident might reason as follows:
"An electric trolley bus does not produce noxious pollution that I personally have to breathe, standing right beside it. So it's Green enough for me. I will support my local transit authority when they buy more expensive electric trolley buses using my tax dollars."
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2. Are All-Electric Buses even remotely New?
********************************************
I know that it's a bit deflationary to characterize all-electirc buses as, in truth, really just glorified trolley buses, and that this grabs some of the wind out of the sails of Green activists who want to promote “all-electric bus". But it’s a simple historical fact that the public transportation systems of most western cities were much more electrified 60 years ago than they are today, because they still had electricity-driven trolley buses in place. Not just Toronto, Canada, but so too London had a huge system of electric trolley buses until the 1960’s, as did Rome and many smaller Italian cities. Milan’s trolley-bus system is still in place, and was never abandoned.
Most cities in Germany and France once had trolley-buses, and there are still 14 and 15 electric trolley bus systems in place respectively in Italy and Switzerland, and no less than 89 systems still operating in Russia. Indeed, electricity-driven trolley-buses have long been implemented worldwide as a form of mass-transit. See http://www.trolleybus.net/subhtml/trams-trolleybuses.htm , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolleybuses_in_London , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolleybus , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bus , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolleybuses_in_Rome , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolleybuses_in_Milan , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_trolleybus_systems_in_Italy , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_trolleybus_systems , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolleybus_usage_by_country , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_trolleybus_systems_in_the_United_Kingdom , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_trolleybus_systems_in_Germany , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_trolleybus_systems_in_France , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_trolley_bus_systems_in_Canada , and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_trolleybus_systems_in_the_United_States .
Rome recently re-introduced trolley buses, but of the battery-driven rechargeable kind as per Proterra, and these trolley buses have proven so successful that Rome is expanding the system – see http://www.lrta.org/TramForward/TAUT Sept 338 tram v trolleybus.pdf . There are now Green activists in just about every city in Europe calling for the return of electric trolley buses, especially in smaller cities that cannot afford tram, streetcar, or subway systems that required building lots of expensive, specialized fixed infrastructure – see for instance http://www.standard.co.uk/news/tran...make-a-return-to-londons-streets-8423181.html , http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1476637 and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trams_in_Milan . The previous peak was about 400 electric trolley-bus systems worldwide in the mid-1950s, and we are now once again close to this peak historical level, with over 350 systems worldwide.
The very best web-article summarizing the past, the present, and the future of all-electric trolley-buses, can be found at http://www.tbus.org.uk/article.htm . It’s superb article, and includes discussion of recent high-tech developments like “dual mode buses”, “guided buses”, and “rubber tired trams” -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual-mode_bus , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual-mode_transit , and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guided_bus . But it’s only suitable for more academic types, and/or truly dedicated transportation freaks…..:sombrero:
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3. Are All-Electric Buses Truly Green?
********************************************
Note that even in Milan, since the 1990’s the tram and trolley-bus system has been making a “comeback”, although again, in Milan trolley-buses were never completely abandoned. With respect to Milan in particular, there is a good PDF at http://www.trolley-project.eu/filea...lleybuses_-_Main_Features_and_Experiences.pdf , which provides an overview of Milan's trolley system, its rolling stock, and both the pluses and minuses of electric trolley buses.
On the downside: (1) electric trolley buses can cost up to twice as much as more ordinary diesel buses; (2) their running costs are higher, because electricity is more expensive per km than diesel in Italy; (3) their repair costs are higher; (4) the fixed infrastructure of a catenary grid of overhead electric wires is costly to maintain; and (5) an aerial system of overhead electric lines is unsightly, which is one of the main reasons why Rome decided to go with the battery-driven kind when it recently re-introduced electric trolley buses:
Electric trolley buses disappeared in many cities in the 1960’s for a one simple reason: cost. Diesel buses were cheaper to buy, cheaper to run, and cheaper to maintain and repair. All of this is worth remembering by those like myself who are super-enthusiastic about hybrid technologies.
There is the added irony pointed out very succinctly by a MAN executive, Franz Redwitz, in the following excellent interview. If the electricity used by a tram or an electric trolley bus comes from coal-fired power stations, then how “Green” is the bus, really? The carbon footprint of the electric bus will probably prove even worse than a diesel-powered or CNG bus, a bus that converts fossil fuel to energy directly on the spot. The energy used by a tram or an electric trolley bus first has to go through a power grid, a grid in which much of the energy is lost at every stage of transition/transmission. In other words, if a fossil-fuel fired power station generates the electricity that powers the buses, then we would be getting many fewer transportation miles relative to the production of a given amount of CO2 gas. If we go with an all-electric trolley bus system, as opposed to a more traditional diesel-bus system, we actually consume more fossil fuel, not less.
This is quite something, if you think about it: an all-electric trolley bus may actually be less truly “Green” than a traditional diesel-powered bus. Not just “as Green”, and not merely “less Green than one might have hoped”. But positively less Green than a traditional diesel bus.
I will return to this interview again when discussing MAN hybrid technologies. But it’s so insightful, and yet so compact, that it deserves to be posted a few times in this thread – see http://www.corporate.man.eu/en/pres...r/MAN-and-NEOPLAN-at-Busworld-2013-84678.html and Download . I’ve highlighted the sections relevant to trolley buses in green, and the killer sentences that question the “Green” credentials of all-electric buses in red:
Granted, this executive speaks for MAN, which is not currently producing trolley buses, neither the older kind that pulled electricity from an overhead wire, nor the newer kind that have rechargeable batteries. So it's not surprising that this executive should slam a kind of bus that MAN neither makes nor sells.
It also seems unlikely that MAN will ever agree that electric trolley buses are economically viable, because as suggested above, they have always cost more to buy and operate than diesel buses. The manufacturers who currently make them, for instance Volvo, Iveco, and a long list of obscure east-European, Russian, and Chinese brands, have been supplying a very specialized niche-market -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_trolleybus_manufacturers , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_electric_bus_makers_and_models , and http://www.theguardian.com/environm...s-electric-bus-prepares-for-service-in-london .
This seems to be a market in which some transit operators are willing to pay a premium, because electric trolley buses mean reduced noise and air pollution in congested urban areas. Even though electric trolley buses may not be as "Green" as diesel or CNG from a wider point of view, i.e. in terms of the overall CO2 emissions required to run them, if those CO2 emissions are being produced by a fossil-fuel-burning power plant located somewhere else, distant from the city, then that's much preferred to having buses generating pollution closer to home, in an urban area. Because trolley buses are "all electric", quiet, and produce no immediately visible pollution, they will at least seem to be more Green to urban residents. So residents in many cities are willing to pay a premium for the illusion of close-to-where-I-live-and-work Green virtue. An urban resident might reason as follows:
"An electric trolley bus does not produce noxious pollution that I personally have to breathe, standing right beside it. So it's Green enough for me. I will support my local transit authority when they buy more expensive electric trolley buses using my tax dollars."
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3. Volvo, Bombardier, and Iveco have entered the same market at Proterra
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It is then quite possible that MAN is making a mistake by not entering the all-electric market with more enthusiasm. There is a long lead-time in the development and implementation of most transportation technologies, and it's difficult to believe that MAN "will be able to deliver" quickly, if it finally decides to enter this market, as Franz Redwitz claims in the interview posted above.
MAN seems to be a bit behind the curve on this one, because some very big names in transportation manufacturing have now launched themselves into exactly the same arena as Proterra. Namely, Volvo with its 7900 all-electric buses; Bombardier with its Primemove system; and IVECO, with the Ellisup especially, and its long, deep, and continuing commitment to electric trolley technology.
For Volvo, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volvo_7900 , http://news.volvogroup.com/2015/05/07/here-it-is-volvos-first-electric-bus/ , http://www.gizmag.com/electricity-gothenburg-volvo-electric-bus/37406/ , http://www.gizmag.com/gothenburg-electric-buses/28040/ , http://drivelinenews.com/axle-insights/volvo-and-scania-launch-electric-buses-and-trucks/ , https://transportevolved.com/2015/0...ll-electric-rapid-charging-buses-on-route-55/ , http://www.volvobuses.com/bus/globa..._7900_electric_hybrid/Pages/introduction.aspx , and http://www.volvobuses.com/bus/globa...s/volvo_7900_electric/Pages/introduction.aspx .
For Bombardier, see http://primove.bombardier.com/en/ , http://primove.bombardier.com/products/battery.html , http://primove.bombardier.com/products/charging.html , http://primove.bombardier.com/products/propulsion.html , http://primove.bombardier.com/applications/e-bus.html , http://primove.bombardier.com/applications/e-car.html , http://primove.bombardier.com/applications/e-truck.html , http://primove.bombardier.com/applications/tram.html , http://primove.bombardier.com/media/videos.html , http://primove.bombardier.com/projects.html , http://primove.bombardier.com/projects/europe/germany-mannheim-primove-e-bus.html , http://primove.bombardier.com/media/news.html , http://primove.bombardier.com/media...nced-by-primove-solution-for-cars-copy-1.html , http://primove.bombardier.com/media...its-first-electric-bus-line-with-primove.html , http://primove.bombardier.com/media...fies-bus-line-in-mannheim-germany-copy-1.html , http://www.bombardier.com/en/sustai...hrtdielini.bombardiercom.sustainability.html? , http://www.bombardier.com/en/transp...technologies/primove-e-mobility-solution.html , http://www.bombardier.com/en/media/...sfirstelectricbuswithbomba.bombardiercom.html , http://www.trolleymotion.eu/www/index.php?id=38&L=3&n_ID=444 , and http://www.bombardier.com/en/transportation/products-services/technology-solutions/e-mobility-solutions.html .
And for IVECO, see http://www.iveco.com/en-us/press-ro...t-for-tomorrow's-public-transport-sector.aspx , http://www.focusontransport.co.za/r...735-the-future-of-bus-design-starts-here.html , http://pulse.edf.com/en/ellisup-fully-electric-bus-charges , https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?id=454184261369729&story_fbid=843170412471110 , https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iveco_Ellisup , https://translate.google.co.uk/tran....wikipedia.org/wiki/Iveco_Ellisup&prev=search , http://blogautomobile.fr/ivecobus-e...ique-nouvelle-generation-213067#axzz3qjwRbXjj , https://translate.google.co.uk/tran...autobus-electrique-nouvelle-generation-213067 , http://www.20minutes.fr/societe/125...us-100-electrique-bientot-circulation-a-paris , https://translate.google.co.uk/tran...rique-bientot-circulation-a-paris&prev=search , http://www.avem.fr/actualite-bus-el...ide-iveco-revele-ellisup-a-busworld-4508.html , https://translate.google.co.uk/tran...ide-iveco-revele-ellisup-a-busworld-4508.html , http://roulezelectrique.com/ellisup-lautobus-electrique-biberonne-a-moteurs-roues-francais/ , https://translate.google.co.uk/tran...electrique-biberonne-a-moteurs-roues-francais , http://www.ademe.fr/sites/default/files/assets/documents/82308_ellisup.pdf , and http://www.instituts-carnot.eu/en/example-hybrid-electric-buses-today-all-electric-buses-tomorrow .
Here are some videos, in the same order:
[video=youtube;_TxY3wTp1lE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TxY3wTp1lE [/video] [video=youtube;sCL-s4qh32c]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCL-s4qh32c [/video]
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3. Volvo, Bombardier, and Iveco have entered the same market at Proterra
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It is then quite possible that MAN is making a mistake by not entering the all-electric market with more enthusiasm. There is a long lead-time in the development and implementation of most transportation technologies, and it's difficult to believe that MAN "will be able to deliver" quickly, if it finally decides to enter this market, as Franz Redwitz claims in the interview posted above.
MAN seems to be a bit behind the curve on this one, because some very big names in transportation manufacturing have now launched themselves into exactly the same arena as Proterra. Namely, Volvo with its 7900 all-electric buses; Bombardier with its Primemove system; and IVECO, with the Ellisup especially, and its long, deep, and continuing commitment to electric trolley technology.
For Volvo, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volvo_7900 , http://news.volvogroup.com/2015/05/07/here-it-is-volvos-first-electric-bus/ , http://www.gizmag.com/electricity-gothenburg-volvo-electric-bus/37406/ , http://www.gizmag.com/gothenburg-electric-buses/28040/ , http://drivelinenews.com/axle-insights/volvo-and-scania-launch-electric-buses-and-trucks/ , https://transportevolved.com/2015/0...ll-electric-rapid-charging-buses-on-route-55/ , http://www.volvobuses.com/bus/globa..._7900_electric_hybrid/Pages/introduction.aspx , and http://www.volvobuses.com/bus/globa...s/volvo_7900_electric/Pages/introduction.aspx .
For Bombardier, see http://primove.bombardier.com/en/ , http://primove.bombardier.com/products/battery.html , http://primove.bombardier.com/products/charging.html , http://primove.bombardier.com/products/propulsion.html , http://primove.bombardier.com/applications/e-bus.html , http://primove.bombardier.com/applications/e-car.html , http://primove.bombardier.com/applications/e-truck.html , http://primove.bombardier.com/applications/tram.html , http://primove.bombardier.com/media/videos.html , http://primove.bombardier.com/projects.html , http://primove.bombardier.com/projects/europe/germany-mannheim-primove-e-bus.html , http://primove.bombardier.com/media/news.html , http://primove.bombardier.com/media...nced-by-primove-solution-for-cars-copy-1.html , http://primove.bombardier.com/media...its-first-electric-bus-line-with-primove.html , http://primove.bombardier.com/media...fies-bus-line-in-mannheim-germany-copy-1.html , http://www.bombardier.com/en/sustai...hrtdielini.bombardiercom.sustainability.html? , http://www.bombardier.com/en/transp...technologies/primove-e-mobility-solution.html , http://www.bombardier.com/en/media/...sfirstelectricbuswithbomba.bombardiercom.html , http://www.trolleymotion.eu/www/index.php?id=38&L=3&n_ID=444 , and http://www.bombardier.com/en/transportation/products-services/technology-solutions/e-mobility-solutions.html .
And for IVECO, see http://www.iveco.com/en-us/press-ro...t-for-tomorrow's-public-transport-sector.aspx , http://www.focusontransport.co.za/r...735-the-future-of-bus-design-starts-here.html , http://pulse.edf.com/en/ellisup-fully-electric-bus-charges , https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?id=454184261369729&story_fbid=843170412471110 , https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iveco_Ellisup , https://translate.google.co.uk/tran....wikipedia.org/wiki/Iveco_Ellisup&prev=search , http://blogautomobile.fr/ivecobus-e...ique-nouvelle-generation-213067#axzz3qjwRbXjj , https://translate.google.co.uk/tran...autobus-electrique-nouvelle-generation-213067 , http://www.20minutes.fr/societe/125...us-100-electrique-bientot-circulation-a-paris , https://translate.google.co.uk/tran...rique-bientot-circulation-a-paris&prev=search , http://www.avem.fr/actualite-bus-el...ide-iveco-revele-ellisup-a-busworld-4508.html , https://translate.google.co.uk/tran...ide-iveco-revele-ellisup-a-busworld-4508.html , http://roulezelectrique.com/ellisup-lautobus-electrique-biberonne-a-moteurs-roues-francais/ , https://translate.google.co.uk/tran...electrique-biberonne-a-moteurs-roues-francais , http://www.ademe.fr/sites/default/files/assets/documents/82308_ellisup.pdf , and http://www.instituts-carnot.eu/en/example-hybrid-electric-buses-today-all-electric-buses-tomorrow .
Here are some videos, in the same order:
[video=youtube;_TxY3wTp1lE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TxY3wTp1lE [/video] [video=youtube;sCL-s4qh32c]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCL-s4qh32c [/video]
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biotect
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And see the playlist at https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLwMdN-ylsjO6eKyhVDW3XRjEyn50w8c5Q .
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And see the playlist at https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLwMdN-ylsjO6eKyhVDW3XRjEyn50w8c5Q .
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