TerraLiner:12 m Globally Mobile Beach House/Class-A Crossover w 6x6 Hybrid Drivetrain

[biotect]

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Like "Tatra Around the World", the "Live Africa" expedition carried a motorized hang-glider:







And like the "Tatra Around the World", "Live Africa" suffered tragedy. On September 27 1994 two members of the crew died while attempting to fly over Africa's highest mountain, Kilimanjaro. Josef Petr, the motorized hang glider pilot, and David Pospisil, the doctor and expedition photographer, were both killed -- see http://www.vystavaafrika.cz/expedice-ziva-afrika/posledni-odlet , http://translate.google.co.uk/trans...afrika.cz/expedice-ziva-afrika/posledni-odlet , http://www.vystavaafrika.cz/expedice-ziva-afrika/tragedie , and http://translate.google.co.uk/trans...ystavaafrika.cz/expedice-ziva-afrika/tragedie .

The vehicle itself is now housed in the Tatra Technical museum, alongside the 815 GTC:





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8. Conclusion


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These images of concretely existing, Tatra 6x6 expedition motorhomes suggest that there is a certain logic to the idea, worth developing further. Although the expeditions that used these vehicles suffered tragic deaths, those deaths were associated with forms of transport (an inflatable raft, a motorized hang-glider) substantially different from a big, 6x6 Tatra truck. Bigger is not necessarily safer, but conversely, bigger is not necessarily more dangerous, or less "practical". At the very least, the Tatra 815 GTC and the epic expedition that it undertook demonstrates that it is perfectly possible to travel “Around the World” in a large, 6x6 expedition motorhome; in a single vehicle that is not part of a convoy.

The Tatra 815 GTC contains design ideas that seem worth considering further, for instance: the second windshield high up on the camper box; seating that is vertically stacked/nested; the two hatches on the roof, that also function as open-air “safari seats”; the large, barrel-vaulted rooftop tent; the work-desk that doubles as an additional bed; the motorized hang-glider whose wing stores in a cabinet in the ceiling. At a personal level, I also find the the overall “hippie-esque”, “magic-bus”, and “one-world” styling very inspiring, even if a bit dated.

But also intriguing is the heating and A/C system, which seem to have been designed to handle extreme altitude. When I visit Tatra at some point in late August or early October, I will be sure to spend a few days at the Technical Museum, where I will try to determine the altitude-capability of the diesel generator, and exactly how the electrical heating system of the Tatra 815 GTC works.

All best wishes,



Biotect

 

[biotect]

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Addendum, re LPG


Here seems like a good place to address the Tatra 815 GTC's complement of four 10 kg cylinders of LPG, while the material about the GTC is still close at hand in the thread, and perhaps fresh in the reader's memory.

A 10 kg LPG cylinder is roughly equivalent to either a 20 lb or 30 lb cylinder. A 20 lb LPG cylinder typically holds something like 9.1 kg of propane, or expressed volumetrically, 4.6 gallons / 17.4 liters. A 30 lb LPG cylinder typically holds 13.6 kg of propane, or 6.8 gallons / 25.7 liters – see for instance http://www.mantank.com/products/dotp...5-420steel.htm . Of course, these figures vary slightly from manufacturer to manufacturer.

Personally, I am a bit anti-LPG, but it is interesting that the 815 GTC is a “tri-fuel” vehicle (diesel, electric, LPG), and that it is so extreme-altitude capable. The GTC seems to have a very robust electrical system, and plenty of electricity available on board. Indeed, the GTC's forced-air heating system seems to be all-electric. So although the GTC 815 carries propane specifically for cooking and hot-water, its heating system is propane-independent, perhaps because the GTC was designed to drive the length of the Andes, and cross the Tibetan plateau? But why then did the GTC's designers not go completely electric, for cooking and hot water as well? Why did they still choose LPG for these functions specifically? Was it because adequate solar and lithium battery banks were not yet available?

If a TerraLiner were to carry LPG on board, it would be desirable to carry it contained in either light-weight aluminum or composite cylinders – see for instance http://www.compositescandinavia.se/p...s/compolite-cs , http://www.compositescandinavia.se/media/press, http://www.compositescandinavia.se/s...1020060627.pdf and http://www.hexagonragasco.com/produc...specifications , http://www.vikingcylinders.com , http://www.vikingcylinders.com/products/ , and http://www.vikingcylinders.com/produ...yle/rvcamping/ . The Compolite CS 10 holds 10.4 kg of propane, and the middle cylinder in the Hexagon-Ragasco line-up holds 10 kg:


. ..........



The dressed-for-dinner models in "Compolite" promotional materials are clearly intended tongue-in-cheek, to suggest just how light these composite propane cylinders are.

So if the Tatra 815 GTC serves as a guideline, a globally capable 6x6 expedition vehicle might want to carry the same quantity of propane, i.e. four of these 10 kg composite cylinders. Or perhaps three of the larger, 14 kg/31 lb composite cylinders made by Hexagon-Ragasco:





But needless to say, here everything here depends on whether the TerraLiner's space-heating, cooking, and hot-water systems are all-electric, diesel-eletric, or some combination of electric, diesel, and LPG. For an extended discussion, see the thread titled "What is the BEST....High Altitude Solution for Heating?" at http://www.expeditionportal.com/foru...=high+altitude . So it's a bit artificial to imagine what amount of LPG a TerraLiner would carry -- if any at all -- until that question has been settled.

All best wishes,



Biotect

 

[biotect]

Hi grizzlyj,

Good to hear from you!

Hiya

The Tankograd book on the MAN KAT explains why and how it was possible to build an otherwise too costly truck, and a little about design decisions along the way such as flex/no flex, independent vs beam axle. Printed in English and German it is a very worthwhile read.

I believe Actionmobil use a 12/24v Danfoss compressor kit in an insulated box they build to make best use of space available. I suppose it could also be possible to install this kit into one one the mains powered units you considered as well as its own mechanicals to get the best of both worlds. I do wonder what items you envisage you would put into a massive fridge that would need cooling, that was available and that would last 4 weeks plus? Wothahelizat has part of the floor sandwich space dedicated to home brewing, perhaps downsize the fridge and allow for this?

Thanks for the heads-up about the Tankograd book. I’ve been meaning to order it; now I will.

As regards the refrigerator, just wanted to establish that, in principle, it would be easy enough to install a big Sub-Zero glass-door model, running on 12/24v, as per the Thompson's converted 300 liter Kelvinator refrigerator in Mañana -- see posts #212, #213, #216, and #217. Or if you are using standard, default ExPo pagination, see http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page22 .

Why? Well, again, because Sub-Zeros are cool. And because Newell coaches have them. As regards the interior, I am imagining the TerraLiner spec’d out as roughly equivalent to a Newell, albeit with more of an Art Deco, Airstream-glamping sort of interior aesthetic. Like ARC – see http://www.arcairstreams.co.uk . But granted, for boondocking most of the food carried would not be refrigerated. Egn and I discussed this at length earlier in the thread; see posts #164, #166, #168, #170, and #173. Or again, if you are using default formatting, see pages 17 and 18, at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page17 and http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page18 . Any expedition vehicle worthy of the name needs to have lots of space for canned goods, and so too, for the kind of vacuum-stored prepared food that egn and I discussed in those posts.


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In an earlier post you suggested that there might be something a bit "Zeitgeist inappropriate" about designing such a large and glam vehicle, given the current economic climate. I never addressed that point, but will try to address it now.

Although we most certainly live in an economically globalized world, the global economy is less "coupled" or unitary than some people tend to imagine. The economic climate does vary across the planet, often significantly so.

For instance, it is fairly indisputable that the 2008 financial meltdown was primarily a crisis whose causal locus was the Anglosphere. Britain and the United States have had "over-financialized" economies for a very long time, Britain especially so. Things have probably reached the point where the over-financialization of Britain has thoroughly corrupted its political process. It will be difficult for Britain to extricate itself from the financial interests that engineered the casino-capitalist laissez-faire conditions that produced the meltdown in the first place, financial interests that want casino-capitalism to continue -- see http://www.newstatesman.com/business/2013/11/financialisation-everyday-life-must-be-confronted , http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/7472/economics/over-financialisation-of-the-economy/ , http://hbr.org/2014/06/the-price-of-wall-streets-power/ar/1 , http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevedenning/2014/06/03/why-financialization-has-run-amok/ , and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financialization .

Economies rooted in decidedly more "old-fashioned" principles -- you know, actually makin' stuff -- have done fairly well since 2008, the German economy often cited as a case in point -- see http://www.economist.com/node/21552567 . So too the situation of the United States is a bit different than Britain's, because the United States still has a significant manufacturing base, one that has expanded since a falling dollar made American exports cheaper. The American economy has also enjoyed a boost from cheap energy made possible by "shale-gas", in contrast to Britain and the EU. The Euro crisis has of course been very hard for Latin countries in southern Europe whose industries lack traditions of heavy R&D investment, access to cheap long-term capital, and the labor productivity of the north. By which economists mean that although the average southern European works significantly longer hours per week than the average German or Swede, he or she produces less, because Latin investment in R&D has been so comparatively meager. So the Euro crisis is something a bit different from the crisis of over-financializaiton that has beset the Anglosphere.

As for the wider world beyond Europe and North America, although slack Anglospheric and European demand has had an impact on China's rate of growth, what we're talking about here is a "slowdown" (if one call it that) from 10 - 12 % growth per annum, to "just" 6 - 8 % growth per annum -- see http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/16/us-china-economy-gdp-idUSBREA3F04J20140416 . China's economy is still for all intents and purposes booming.

So the economic Zeitgeist might be looking grey and cloudy in Britain, but Britain is not the world, and it would be foolish to design with only British economic weather in mind, so to speak. It would be interesting to know, for instance, the breakdown by nationality of ActionMobil and UniCat customers. One suspects that a significant proportion of UniCat's customers must be middle-eastern, if only because UniCat has opened a fully equipped workshop in Dubai -- see http://www.unicat.com/pdf/UNICAT-News-2010-01-HI-en.pdf and http://www.unicat.com/pdf/UNICAT-News-2010-02-HI-en.pdf . The market for expedition vehicles, in short, is global, and a designer needs to keep this in mind.

I hope the previous did not sound too harsh, and I tried to put things as abstractly as I could. But there is really no gentle way to make the points above, is there? ....For what it's worth, this line of thinking is fairly standard on the continent, and so too amongst many British and American economists. Indeed, this line of thinking is the theoretical basis for Ed Milliband's "Neue Labor" platform -- see http://www.economist.com/news/21589...-it-become-fairer-and-more-productive-country , http://www.spiegel.de/international...rmany-as-an-economic-role-model-a-898399.html , http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01cvkg6 , http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2012/jun/01/labour-policy-chief-germany-inspiration , and http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...wants-us-to-be-more-like-germany-6699327.html . So hope it's not too surprising to see it in print here? We're not supposed to get "political" on ExPo, and one of the reasons I like this web-forum is because it is so blessedly free of politics. But there is an ethical and a political dimension to transportation design that's kinda unavoidable, although what this actually means in practice often proves to be a bit different than what most people imagine. So let's just say that I've considered such questions, I am very grateful for your thoughtful comments about weight and accessibility, but we'll probably have to agree to disagree.......

However, I want to emphasize that I very much do value your comments, if only because there is always something to be learnt from those willing to provide constructive criticism. Your thoughts about weight and accessibility have had a big impact on my thinking. I read your posts carefully, and again, I find your observations and criticisms valuable. But needless to say, I've had to balance your arguments against other kinds of information that I've garnered from egn, Peter Thompson, the owners of large MAN-KAT motorhomes who contribute to the kat-forum.de, and the evidence of expeditions like "Overland 12" or "Tatra Around the World".

So, continuing.....

EGN mentioned a while back that there is no diff between his rear axles. Does that mean that a 6x6 made from an 8x8 MAN KAT with rear axle removed would have a better turning circle than a normal 6x6? One post I've read on the KAT forum suggests a 4x4 and an 8x8 are better in sand than the 6x6 but maybe that was more opinion than fact?

At a bare minimum the front two axles of an 8x8 SX-45 or HX-77 are steerable. Ergo, if you cut off the fourth axle of an 8x8, then it seems likely that the resulting 6x6 will probably cut a tighter circle than a 6x6 SX-44 or HX-58, in which only a single front axle steers. But I am not certain about this; you will have to ask egn.

And whether a MAN-KAT 4x4 or 8x8 is "better in the sand" than a 6x6, that's definitely a question for egn....

A totally stupid suggestion of mine would be to use a Subaru boxer diesel engine within the chassis rails directly driving one axle each. In total that would give enough power and torque, very compact, and if EGNs truck can manage with two axles scrubbing on corners I would think dissimilar wheel speeds from slightly different engine characteristics could be minor on a truck, or computer controlled for harmony. Rubbish torque curve I imagine for direct connection, but torque converters or hybrid drive and a constant diesel rpm?

This one is way out of my depth; far too technical. Again, I’ll leave it to egn and others to respond….

The vehicle accessibility thing I think is more of a yes or no rather than a % accessible. Forum posts saying Russian bridges are 3.5m, or African safari parks allow Landrover sized vehicles only, or some 4x4 tracks in Australia allow Landy sized stuff and bigger just won't fit. Something that I've posted before because it surprised me is our 3.9m camper couldn't go to Andorra from France, we would have to have driven all the way around it and down into Spain before coming back up. If your dream trip entails any of the few you can discover before you leave, Biotect's little truck will not be on the shopping list. I wonder how the orange Italian 6x6s would have got on in the mud if they were lightly loaded, 10 tons instead of ???

Accessibility may be “yes/no”, but I am still committed to an egn-sized vehicle nonetheless, i.e. 9 – 10 m long.
Did you check out egn's über-cool trip-logs? The 4m high camper-box of Blue Thunder sure does get around, the East-European 3.5 m bridge-height limit notwithstanding....:smiley_drive:






For more about egn's Blue Thunder and where it’s been, see http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/11614-MAN-6x6-camper , http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/20933867/srt/pa/pging/1/page/1.cfm , http://www.enfatec.de/index.php?id=54 , http://www.poi66.com/show_album.php?album=bt-kola-2007&allow_cookies=1 , http://www.poi66.com/show_album?album=bt-irland-2012 , http://www.poi66.com/show_album?album=bt-schweden-2011 , http://www.poi66.com/show_album.php?album=bt-baltic-2010 , http://www.poi66.com/show_album?album=bt-tuerkei-2008 , and http://www.poi66.com/show_album?album=bt-balkan-2013 .

Also check out the world-travels of the Tatra 815 GTC (Grand Touring Caravan), once I fill in all the pictures for the series of posts above. Not bad for a vehicle that’s 10 m long, and that weighs 22,000 kg. :victory:

Which side the steering wheel is on may be an insistence on the part of the customer, as many without experience will not want to be too far out of their comfort zone perhaps? LHD cars sell very poorly in the UK even with such temptations as the new Corvette Stingray. The height of a truck cab makes steering wheel side fairly irrelevant though, the driver will mostly have a passenger in such a camper, you just have to persuade the customer that its no big deal.

I’ve lived in England off-and-on for almost 6 years in total, and have learned to feel comfortable driving on the wrong side of the road….... The only problems seem to arise in the first 24 hours switching from LHS to RHS, or the reverse. The trick I use is simple. No matter where you are driving, if you are the driver, you should always be “most in harm’s way”, on the side of the vehicle that’s closest to oncoming traffic. Sure, this may sound morbid, but I always ask myself, “Am I driving on the road in such a manner that in the event of a head-on collision, I will get hammered first?” If not, then I know that I’m on the wrong side. Seems to work, except that I still have nightmares for a few weeks every time I make the switch, dreaming that I screwed up, and am about to hit a big truck face-first.

Thankfully I always wake up from my nightmares before I die.

One place in Morocco we spent some time had bottled water to drink and brackish groundwater. If I had a water filter working on osmosis I think I would have had plenty of drinking water from the wells. The PreMac filter we did have is very effective but doesn't remove salt (or heavy metals come to that), and the element lifespan was reduced by putting this water though it. We didn't know at the time but drinking this filtered ground water gave a mildly upset stomach. I think having a good filter for drinking water most of the time (Seagull IV X-6?), and a means of converting sea water occasionally would be ideal. Coarse filtration into a main tank, proper filtration into a drinking water only tank. I'm not sure about filtering shower water? A drinking water only tank means you could empty the locally bought water bottles into it saving space, and if you keep it full you have a drinkable reservoir in the event of a power or filter failure. Micro Pur Forte powder maintains water quality for six months once its in a clean condition. (A mug sized tub for 50000l has a several year shelf life and costs about €80).

Thanks for all the advice about water filters. I’ve not yet researched water-filtering at length. Right now I am trying to work my way through heating system design for extreme high-altitude. Check out the thread at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...ion-for-Heating/page4?highlight=high+altitude , where an extended and very productive correspondence with julius007 seems to be developing.

And at the rear end of my post http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...g-Toilet-—-Report-on-8-months-full-time-usage .

Finally, many thanks for this link to the ExPo composting toilet thread. Literally every possible aspect of expedition vehicle design has been or is being discussed on ExPo. Really astonishing, and simply terrific.

Do check out the “High Altitude Heating” thread, and chime in, if you feel moved…. The Tatra 815 GTC chronicled above, it should be noted, seems to have had all-electric heating, and this was pre-solar. No doubt because the Tatra 815 GTC’s intended itinerary took it along most of the length of the Andes, as well as across the Tibetan plateau. At one point in the Andes the Tatra 815 GTC set an altitude record of 5300 m.

All best wishes,




Biotect

 

[Pinstripe]

Currently for sale: http://www.expedition-trucks.com/brokers/man-kat-6x6-expedition-truck

 

[egn]

I believe Actionmobil use a 12/24v Danfoss compressor kit in an insulated box they build to make best use of space available. I suppose it could also be possible to install this kit into one one the mains powered units you considered as well as its own mechanicals to get the best of both worlds. I do wonder what items you envisage you would put into a massive fridge that would need cooling, that was available and that would last 4 weeks plus? Wothahelizat has part of the floor sandwich space dedicated to home brewing, perhaps downsize the fridge and allow for this?

I think, at most locations you will have also fresh food available and you can fill up the storage occasionally. But you are right, normally most food needing cooling will be be bad after 4 weeks storage. So normally you will need only storage needs in the fridge for a few weeks.

EGN mentioned a while back that there is no diff between his rear axles. Does that mean that a 6x6 made from an 8x8 MAN KAT with rear axle removed would have a better turning circle than a normal 6x6? One post I've read on the KAT forum suggests a 4x4 and an 8x8 are better in sand than the 6x6 but maybe that was more opinion than fact?

A castrated 8x8 doesn't have a smaller turning cycle than a 6x6 because an 8x8 cannot turn the front wheels as far as an 6x6. From the experience of my friends the 6x6 is much better in sand as it has a better lower ground pressure per wheel, more wheels that push forward and a better power to weight ratio. An 8x8 is even better regarding ground pressure and number of driven wheels, but has a lower power to weight, as it has the same engine as an 6x6. I still think the 6x6 the best compromise regarding size, weight and offroad capability.

 

[biotect]

I think, at most locations you will have also fresh food available and you can fill up the storage occasionally. But you are right, normally most food needing cooling will be be bad after 4 weeks storage. So normally you will need only storage needs in the fridge for a few weeks.

Hi egn, grizzlyj,

A few more thoughts/questions about refrigeration.

One thing I find fascinating on this forum is the frequent mention of wives, and the kinds of things that wives insist upon in motorhomes. For instance, egn, your wife rejected the possibility of a compositing toilet, and insisted on a Sealand vacuum-flush model. And it was Peter Thompson's wife who insisted upon a big, 300 L Kelvinator fridge.

I then wonder, "How much of a gender difference is there, when it comes to preferences regarding motorhome design? And where might the big differences be?" For instance, if one were to conduct a reasonably scientific poll, asking “What is the ideal size of a motorhome fridge?”, would the average male response (say, 150 liters?), be significantly different from the average female response (say 250 liters?).

No doubt Thetford and Dometic have conducted such polls. But even without seeing such polls, it seems likely that women will be willing to sacrifice space in a motorhome that could have been used for other things, in order to have:

• a bigger refrigerator, and a bigger freezer
• a bigger kitchen sink, and more kitchen counter-space
• a clothes-washing machine, and even a separate dryer if possible
• a drawer-type dishwasher, like Fischer-Paykel

As a designer one quickly learns that although male preferences and female preferences overlap, they are not identical. So it is a mistake as a male designer to imagine that one's own intuitive design preferences will automatically be shared by women.

Now regarding fridges/freezers specifically, what do you think should be the “ideal ratio” between fridge and freezer? 50/50? 40/60? 60/40? How useful is a freezer in a motorhome? Although food certainly spoils after one month in a fridge, the same is not true of a freezer. So should a motorhome's freezer actually be bigger than the refrigerator? Many people will have just one refrigerator in their house, but two freezers, or even three, with the additional freezers sitting in the basement. Would a similar line of thinking apply to motorhomes, especially those designed for extended boondocking?

And, how do you think your wives would respond to the same questions?

I still think the 6x6 the best compromise regarding size, weight and offroad capability.

egn, as you know, I have no personal experience with expedition motorhomes, but this does seem right. All of the larger overlanding vehicles that I've come across used on challenging expeditions, like Beppe Tenti's "Overland" series or Tatra's "Around the World", have been 6x6 format. 8x8 seems just too large.

Of course, the 4x4 format has much to be said for it, and there is no shortage of participants on ExPo willing to advocate 4x4, and denigrate 6x6. But if one wants the comfort of a larger, 9 - 10 m long, "German Liner-sized" motorhome, then 6x6 seems the way to go. It's worth noting that the majority of ActionMobil's and UniCat's larger vehicles are 6x6, and not 8x8. On its website, ActionMobil even classifies 8x8 four-axle vehicles as "specials", separate from its more standard line-up of 2-axle and 3-axle models -- see http://actionmobil.com/en/ .

All best wishes,



Biotect

 

[Maninga]

One thing I find fascinating on this forum is the frequent mention of wives, and the kinds of things that wives insist upon in motorhomes.

Hi Biotect,

In my case, my entire reason for building a motorhome is because of my wife. When I was originally planning on travels, I'd looked at roof top tents and some of the slide on tent campers. They're easy to get, set up and a whole lot cheaper than what we're doing now. But the wife insisted on something with some space, a comfortable bed and a toilet. We went to a camping show and looked over all the options, getting an idea for what she liked and didn't like, then got down to finding the right compromise between space and function. Over time, more and more requirements get added that need to be added to cater for what are seen as essentials. If we didn't have the bed and toilet, she wouldn't be happy to wild camp or go away to non serviced camp sites.

A lot of this really depends in the length of trip. I've taken a month long tent camping trip with her, she complained at times, but knew there was an end in sight to go back to a running shower and her own bed. On a trip of 18 months or so, this wouldn't cut it. There needed to be some comfort in there for her to go along with it. Our current chat is about colors for the interior, she has some interesting ideas on that.

For a fridge/freezer, I'm going about 100/80l respectively. Freezer will largely be for meats and ice cream. We expect to be able to resupply every few weeks, but are catering for a month away. We are having an external drinks fridge though, which will free up space from main fridge. Will see how that works out.

Joe

 

[biotect]

Hi Joe,

Thanks for that, and great to hear from you.

Very interesting. One wonders, for instance, to what extent "glamping" or "glamorous camping" is a female idea? Again, see page 22 (if you're using ExPo default pagination), posts #216 and #217, where I defend "glamping" as a legitimate way to spend leisure time -- http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page22 .

Earlier in the thread I did not want to flat-out state that I am designing the TerraLiner with women in mind, too, as opposed to just ex-military tough guys who are still single. Stating as much earlier in the thread would have been too provocative, and would have distracted from the thread's main intent. Whereas now that the thread has developed a clear trajectory, thought I'd raise the gender issue, and see how people respond.

Given your interesting comment, perhaps the question could be precised even further:

1. What motorhome preferences do women in general have?
2. What motorhome preferences do married women have?
3. What motorhome preferences do single women have?
4. What motorhome preferences do men in general have?
5. What motorhome preferences do married men have?
6. What motorhome preferences do single men have?
7. What motorhome preferences do married couples have?
8. What motorhome preferences do families have?

"Married couples" should be a separate question, because couples make joint decisions that are qualitatively different from individuals considered in isolation. The decisions of couples are not just the sum total of individual preferences considered separately. And, of course, all of the above questions should be broken down further by age.

From the beginning, I imagined the TerraLiner as a motorhome for couples, at the very least; and so too as a motorhome for small families. Sure, women do exist who enjoy "roughing it" in the wilderness, and who might be content to travel the world by motorbike. But it would be interesting to know just how many such women exist, in comparison to women like your wife or Mr. Thompson's wife, who would be happy to travel instead in a 4x4 or 6x6 expedition motorhome, but would reject traveling the world by motorbike, or even by SUV with RTT, as simply too primitive.

Finally, it would be interesting to know to what extent the motorhome preferences of married men shift, as they become (in effect) "domesticated" by their wives. Marriage changes men, usually for the better, and the "domestication" of male energy and preferences is a good thing.

Perhaps I am wrong about this, but ExPo seems to be a fairly "male" sort of forum, if only because talking about vehicles and mechanical systems still tends to be a guy thing. For instance, although the profession of industrial design writ large is now gender-mixed, transportation design specifically is still male-dominated, as are related professions like mechanical and automotive engineering. See http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/30/automobiles/a-womans-touch-still-a-rarity-in-car-design.html?_r=0 , http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/30/a...a-rarity-in-car-design.html?pagewanted=2&_r=0 , http://www.wired.com/2010/07/women-in-auto-design/ , http://www.freudenberg.com/en/Press...n-forges-ahead-in-a-male-dominated-field.aspx , http://www.linkedin.com/groups/Engineers-why-is-this-such-117554.S.202367823 , https://www.engineerjobs.co.uk/careers-advice/women-in-engineering , http://www.stantec.com/blog/2012/05...rence-transportation-design.html#.U5cpl3lnD-s , and http://usa.streetsblog.org/2013/05/...engineering-world-benefit-cycling-in-the-u-s/ .

So when as a male participant on ExPo states their motorhome preferences, and when others chime in and agree, perhaps all that's actually happening is that is a bunch of guys are getting together to agree online about what an expedition motorhome should look like? If motorhome marketers -- and indeed motorhome designers -- took such conversations too seriously, they would be missing a huge potential slice of the market, namely, women; and the men who are married to women.

For the record I am not married, but have a girlfriend who rides a motorbike, and we've enjoyed traveling together with just bicycles and a tent. Even still, we agree that we would never want to spend years traveling the world just by motorbike.

All best wishes,



Biotect

 

[grizzlyj]

A castrated 8x8 doesn't have a smaller turning cycle than a 6x6 because an 8x8 cannot turn the front wheels as far as an 6x6. From the experience of my friends the 6x6 is much better in sand as it has a better lower ground pressure per wheel, more wheels that push forward and a better power to weight ratio. An 8x8 is even better regarding ground pressure and number of driven wheels, but has a lower power to weight, as it has the same engine as an 6x6. I still think the 6x6 the best compromise regarding size, weight and offroad capability.

Hi and thank you for replying

I'm surprised you say the 8x8 can't turn its wheels as far as a 6x6 because the Tankograd book suggests all varients have the same axles? I also had thought a one steered axle 6x6 might be a little like trying to steer a fully locked up 4x4, it really wants to go straight on especially on soft ground? A trimmed (castrated?!? :Wow1 8x8 with two axles pulling in the right direction seemed to me a better bet, so thank you for the clarification

Biotect, regarding gas bottles, the EU norm is an exchange system often unique to a country so you may be better off just allowing room for standard size bottles than saying I want "X" brand. Going from UK Calor gas to French Repsol to Spanish Repsol to Moroccan Very Dented requires leaving the old bottles (and deposit) behind. You can have a refillable system likehttp://www.gaslowdirect.com/epages/cyujrhdmmu67.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/cyujrhdmmu67/Categories/Gaslow_Refillables but that may be EU fittings/regs only? A 12kg cylinder just for a hob lasts months though.

One camper I've seen had a freezer specified to hold a whole goat

Previously I had tried to suggest a more future proof direction of truck camper design would be to aim for smaller and lighter and so more efficient, but that could once parked provide unrivalled space for that class traditionally. I'm sure there will always be people with a mountain of money to buy whatever takes there fancy, but that is a smaller target to hit.

 

[egn]

I'm surprised you say the 8x8 can't turn its wheels as far as a 6x6 because the Tankograd book suggests all varients have the same axles?

Yes, the axles are the same, but the steering angle is limited differently.

The 4x4 and the 6x6 have the same turning circle of abut 20.5 m, the 8x8 has 26.5 m. This means that the effective rear turning point of the 6x6 is equivalent to the axle distance of the 4x4 of about 4.5 m. This is in between both rear axles of the 6x6. When we assume similar for the 8x8, by cutting the rear axle we win only about 2 * 0.7 m = 1.4 m for a lower turning circle of about 25 m.

I also had thought a one steered axle 6x6 might be a little like trying to steer a fully locked up 4x4, it really wants to go straight on especially on soft ground?

Yes, there seems to be a tendency to go straight, but in reality the you loose rubber on the street, because the all-wheel drive of the front axle pulls it into the right direction.

A trimmed (castrated?!? :Wow1 8x8 with two axles pulling in the right direction seemed to me a better bet, so thank you for the clarification

Ok castrated might be a bit harsh, but a trimmed 8x8 looses a lot of capabilities, like crossing trenches, lower ground pressure and the additional traction of one axle. Of course, it will go easier around a corner as the original 8x8, but not as easy as a 6x6 and a 4x4.


Regarding LPG gas bottles, why not use a larger container. A lot of people using LPG with larger vehicles just install a LPG container 100+ l in size, that can be filled at any LPG station.

Keep in mind that space heating in winter uses up a lot of LPG. You may have to replace the standard 11 kg bottles twice a week. I think the main source for space heating should be diesel.

 

[egn]

Currently for sale: http://www.expedition-trucks.com/brokers/man-kat-6x6-expedition-truck

You can find more info here and here.

 

[biotect]

.
1. Normal 6x6 versus "Castrated" 8x8

Ok castrated might be a bit harsh, but a trimmed 8x8 looses a lot of capabilities, like crossing trenches, lower ground pressure and the additional traction of one axle. Of course, it will go easier around a corner as the original 8x8, but not as easy as a 6x6 and a 4x4.

egn,

Thanks for that clarification regarding the turning radius of a normal 6x6 versus a “castrated” 8x8, i.e. an 8x8 that's been turned into a 6x6. Earlier in the thread you seemed in favor of the castrated model, because it has a better front/back weight distribution. And you wrote that, if you could do it again, you might have purchased a castrated 8x8 instead....

So are you now backtracking, suggesting that a normal 6x6 is better? Or would you still favor the castrated 8x8, because front/back weight distribution is more important than turning radius?
.

 

[biotect]

.
2. LPG and Diesel

Regarding LPG gas bottles, why not use a larger container. A lot of people using LPG with larger vehicles just install a LPG container 100+ l in size, that can be filled at any LPG station.

Keep in mind that space heating in winter uses up a lot of LPG. You may have to replace the standard 11 kg bottles twice a week. I think the main source for space heating should be diesel.

Yes, I'd thought of that, but I read somewhere that some gas stations don't like filling LPG “built-in” tanks; that they are only wiling to refill cylinders? Or even worse, that they're only wiling to swap cylinders?

Quite honestly, the regulations and differing national practices that govern the filling/refilling of LPG are confusing. I've downloaded tons of stuff, especially advice regarding “LPG on the continent”. But I still don't understand why I can't bring composite cylinders of my own to France or Spain, and have them refilled? Why do I have to put down a deposit on their local brands of cylinder? And when I cross from Spain to Morocco, does this mean that for a few nights I will be without LPG, because I had to return the Spanish bottles before leaving Spain, and have not yet picked up new Moroccan bottles in Morocco?

On some websites I've read that refilling one's own cylinders is no problem; on others, that it's best to put down a deposit and get the cylinders used by the "local" LPG cylinder-exchange system. But the "Gaslow" website that grizzlyj just referenced, for instance, seems to suggest that refilling is possible, and much less expensive than exchanging cylinders -- see http://www.gaslowdirect.com/epages/...ps/cyujrhdmmu67/Categories/Gaslow_Refillables , http://www.gaslowdirect.com/WebRoot...Gallery/A4_LEAFLET_Direct_Fill_Refillable.pdf , http://www.gaslowdirect.com/WebRoot...aGallery/Filling_Instructions_2011_lowres.pdf , and http://www.gaslowdirect.com/WebRoot...allery/GASLOW_CATALOGUE_2013_for_internet.pdf :

"Why struggle connecting, lifting and carrying heavy gas bottles and then pay 50% more for the gas than you have to? Then when you travel to Europe and you run out of gas, it becomes a nightmare as you cannot even exchange your empty cylinder for a full one!

By installing a Gaslow Refillable Cylinder System, you can simply pull in to one of thousands of LPG stations throughout the UK and Europe and fill up just like you would your car. Not only is the gas much cheaper, you will never waste any gas and you can simply top up your cylinders at any time - you only pay for the gas you use!"

Furthermore, just as long as one has the right nozzle connection, it would seem that filling up anywhere in Europe should be easy enough -- see http://www.gaslowdirect.com/epages/.../Categories/Gaslow_Refillables/Filling_Abroad :

"There are currently four different LPG pump nozzle connections in use across Europe. By simply screwing on one of the three foreign filling adapters you can adapt the UK connection to enable you to fill anywhere in Europe and even further afield."

And yet on the same website, Gaslow writes:

"We cannot currently guarantee that all LPG (Autogas) forecourt garages will fill your cylinders unless they are fitted permanently in your caravan/motorhome together with the remote Gaslow Filler Kit.

This is because some people have been trying to fill non-refillable cylinders to save money. This is both illegal and very dangerous resulting in the major petrol companies deciding not to allow any portable cylinders to be filled on their forecourts. This is totally understandable, as they would have to educate all of their forecourt staff to be able to identify which cylinders should or should not be filled. They could also be held responsible for any accidents resulting from overfilled cylinders."

See http://www.gaslowdirect.com/epages/...jrhdmmu67/Categories/Cylinders/Filling_Advice .

So if either you or grizzlyj would be willing to give a very quick summary of how LPG works in Britain and in Europe, and perhaps also in North America or further afield, that would be great.

If a big, 100 + liter LPG tank is the way to go, any recommendations regarding manufacturers? Is there a size limit? I remember reading somewhere that 131 liters is the European limit on transporting LPG for RV use?


grizzlyj and egn,

If you have time, check out the “High Altitude….Heating” thread, at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...-the-BEST-High-Altitude-Solution-for-Heating/ , and do chime in... There Julius0377 and I have been kicking around various ideas for high-altitude heating solutions.

Julius seems to strongly favor a “tri-fuel” mixed system, in which LPG would still do lots of space-heating. But there is a “complexity tradeoff” here, and I wonder whether the best solution might be a comprehensive diesel/electric configuration in which a single, very competent manufacturer – like Aqua-Hot for instance – makes all the components of the total system – see http://www.aquahot.com/Default.aspx , http://www.aquahot.com/products.aspx , http://www.aquahot.com/Products/RV-Applications/675D.aspx , http://www.aquahot.com/Library.aspx , http://www.aquahot.com/eSource/ecom/eSource/staticpages/documents/600_675D_Sell_Sheet.pdf , and http://www.aquahot.com/eSource/ecom/eSource/staticpages/documents/LTE-907-681Web.pdf :




In the United States, Aqua-Hot is considered a premium provider, and luxury fabricators like Newell and Millennium install Aqua-Hot – see http://www.aquahot.com/Company-We-Keep.aspx . But I have no idea what Aqua-Hot's altitude capability might be. Web-forum chats suggest Aqua-Hot is no better at handling altitude than other diesel-based heating systems (Webasto, Truma, Eberspracher); and indeed, maybe worse?

On the “High Altitude” thread, check out the discussion of the ITR – “International Thermal Research” – in post #32, item 6, on page 4 (if you're using standard ExPo pagination), at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...BEST-High-Altitude-Solution-for-Heating/page4 . Here's the ITR video again:


[video=youtube;ZSukFPC6JK8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSukFPC6JK8 [/video]


Notice how combustion takes place in a patented “low pressure” system that uses compressed air. Which makes me wonder whether ITR diesel heaters might also work well at extreme altitudes? Perhaps they are the heater equivalent of a turbocharged diesel generator? I am not an engineer, but watching this video made me wonder….. It would be great to have your thoughts about ITR, and its unique way of burning diesel (and other kinds of) fuel.

All best wishes,



Biotect

 

[biotect]

.

Previously I had tried to suggest a more future proof direction of truck camper design would be to aim for smaller and lighter and so more efficient, but that could once parked provide unrivalled space for that class traditionally. I'm sure there will always be people with a mountain of money to buy whatever takes there fancy, but that is a smaller target to hit.

One camper I've seen had a freezer specified to hold a whole goat

grizzlyj,

Joe thought the ideal ratio of refrigerator-to-freezer might be 100liters/80 liters. What would you suggest?

Here's one more thought about gender and motorhome design. Did you know that the trailer-caravan was invented because Wally Byam's wife refused to sleep in a tent on the ground?

Modern Airstream Camper at "Design Within Reach"

Happy Friday! We thought this little weekend warrior, available through Design Within Reach and Airstream Dealers, would get us all excited for summer road trips and weekends away.

The story starts way back in 1936. An avid outdoorsman, Airstream founder Wally Byam married a woman who had little interest in camping and sleeping on the ground. When he built his bride a tent on a Ford Model T chassis that he could tow behind the car, marital bliss was restored. The project gave Byam an idea for a travel trailer that moved like a “stream of air” and in 1936, America got its first look at an Airstream.

Fastforward to the year 2000. The company's motto, “Make only improvements, not changes,” was shaken by architect-designer Chris Deam who decided to gut a vintage trailer to create a booth for the International Contemporary Furniture Fair. Deam's ability to respect the history of the iconic aluminum shell, while bringing a lighter, more spacious feeling to the interior, was praised by Airstream purists and the design community. The design caught the attention of Design Within Reach, who contacted Deam about creating a special edition trailer.

This new Airstream has been outfitted with the works. The galley kitchen comes equipped with cooktop, stainless sink, Elkay faucet, fridge-freezer, Nelson Ball Clock and four Heller Dinnerware place settings. There's also a lavatory and shower. The eco-friendly flooring has a matte ebony finish. The panoramic windows have custom aluminum window treatments imported from Europe. A fabric awning and two Tripolina Chairs are included. There are Matteo linens and a Maharam Pillow, and the electronics package includes rooftop AC, Sony sound system and television.

Priced at $49,066.

The Design Within Reach model is sold through Airstream dealers. Find a DWR Airstream dealer near you. www.dwr.com.

See http://arizonafoothillsmagazine.com...odern-airstream-camper-at-design-within-reach , http://www.roamingtimes.com/rvreports/1/airstream-design-within-reach-travel-trailer.aspx , http://www.cdeam.com/project/dwr . http://lump.co/airstream-design-within-reach , http://www.airforums.com/forums/f526/2008-bambi-16-dwr-2012-airstream-bambi-16-dwr-94559.html , and https://www.flickr.com/photos/pvaniersel/7279461318/in/set-72157629918227412/ :







This gives me an excuse to post some more Airstream, and Christopher C. Deam design excellence....


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[biotect]

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CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST

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Also see:




A slightly different version of the DWR ultra-compact Airstream was sold as the “Bambi”, and it sure is as cute as its namesake:




Many women (although not all) prefer “cute” cars, whereas men tend to prefer more “macho” vehicles – again, see http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/30/automobiles/a-womans-touch-still-a-rarity-in-car-design.html?_r=0 . But women also want practical vehicles that have plenty of storage space, ergo the soccer mom who drives a big SUV or minivan. So when balancing “cute” versus “space”, I wonder whether women tend to prefer larger motorhomes, in contrast to men? Women won't fall in love with the Airstream Bambi just because it's cute, if they feel it would be impractical because it has insufficient space for its intended purpose. The Bambi was marketed as a weekend camper, so it would probably pass muster on that front.

But consider: the Bambi is 16 feet, 7 inches long, or about 5.0 m. Add another 2 m for a cab with a single row of seats, and you have a 7 m motorhome. With two rows of seating for four people, you have an 8 m motorhome. So if the Bambi is intended for weekend use only in the mainstream market, then why should roughly the same amount of space be considered sufficient for full-timing in an expedition vehicle? The standard answer, of course, will be that "overlanding people" are different, they're less fussy, they're more adaptable, they're willing to de-escalate their lifestyles for the sake of some serious traveling, and so on. And no doubt all of this is true. But again, I wonder to what extent it's more true about male overlanders, than about female overlanders?

If we consider expedition motorhomes of the kind that cater to couples, and that are not just “man-caves” intended for single men, I want to ask: Do women tend to favor the comfort that larger expedition motorhomes provide? Sure, budget is key. But if a couple's budget were somewhat flexible, and a larger size could be bought, will the wife's tendency be to lean towards bigger? What percentage of UniCat's and ActionMobil's customers for three-axle models are couples, and not single men?

There is no question that a trade-off exists between size and terrain-accessibility. But I do wonder whether women will tend to strike a balance in that trade-off that differs substantially from men?

All best wishes,



Biotect