TerraLiner:12 m Globally Mobile Beach House/Class-A Crossover w 6x6 Hybrid Drivetrain
- Thread starter biotect
- Start date
Slingshot
Hi Biotect,
I don't think I can really speak as any case of expert to what science and technology separates the Slingshot from the rest of the competitive products out there. But that being said I can try to speak to the man, Dean Kamen, as I believe in him 100%. I've been a volunteer, coach, referee, otherwise involved with the FIRST Robotics organization, which he founded, for the past 13 years. www.usfirst.org And meeting Dean and hearing him speak, I have definitely drunk the Kool Aid so to speak in that I greatly admire him and everything he's done.
During the Slingshot documentary, they spoke of the inspiration behind the device and where he came up with the idea. Essentially, he helped invent medical devices earlier in his career including the world's first portable insulin pump. Another device he created was the world's first home dialysis machine so that people in need would not have to spend all of their time in a hospital or doctor's office and instead just use the machine at home.
Well the problem they then realized was that home water was not good enough to be medical grade and injected into people internally, so even though the machine was in your home, you would need hundreds of gallons of purified distilled medical grade water shipped to your home to use the device. So that then began his quest to figure out a way to get that purified water to the patients easier. Along the way realizing that the world is in dire need of such equipment to help solve the water problem globally. As he so often quotes in the videos you quoted and other interviews is that access to clean drinking water could eliminate 50% of all disease worldwide.
So I think a key to the device that Director Paul Lazarus talked about in the clip you posted in an interview regarding the Documentary is the energy requirements. Technically most all other types of water treatment solutions require you to know what you've got coming in in your inlet stream so you know the most effective way to clean it out. THis is evident in our overlanding world as well. Chlorine doesn't kill the same things as UV, and micropore filters also only rid certain things, etc. Whereas industrial scale medical purification plants use a distillation process where you get rid of anything that's in the water by boiling it off, and then recondensing it leaving just pure water. In this case it doesn't matter what you put in the inlet side. This goes from Mountain streams, to polluted rivers, or desert wells with floating camel carcasses, or even salmonella ridden dishwater.
What you get out is purified distilled medical grade injectable water. The problem is the energy requirement. The large scale factories are hugely intensive. On a smaller scale, to make it more energy efficient, Kamen and his team came up with some very efficient thermal energy recovery techniques so that the unit operates on only 1kW of power. The other part of it Kamen and company can bring to the table is their design of a Sterling Cycle Engine to power it possibly. The sterling being a very efficient purpose driven unit which is an external combustion engine where you don't need traditional fuel like gasoline to run it, but instead just a heat source. This heat source could again be anything from a boiler down to a dung powered campfire in Ghana.
So I'm not sure if any of the competitor products are as well designed, or if it just takes a more holistic approach to come up with a small scale high grade purity water system with the thermal efficiencies, with the energy generation piece and the expertise that Dean Kamen and his team at DeKa are capable of achieving.
According to the documentary they built one of the systems and deployed it in Africa. But they needed a generator and fork lifts in the village to get it working and it was just way too complicated. After then partnering with Coca-Cola for some cash infusion and distribution channel, they built 15 units that were the size of a large kitchen refrigerator and costs on the order of $100k each. Then the followup was a task to build 50 of them and cut the cost by another order of magnitude. I think it will take a few more cycles and a few more years, but I believe that Kamen and his team will get there to meet the specs they've been throwing around. THat is to say, $1-$2k price, Small dorm size refrgerator package, and ~1kw of energy usage. Kamen has the tenacity and drive to make the impossible possible. He only works on problems which everyone else believes are impossible. In that way I can draw a lot of parallels to Elon Musk and Tesla/SpaceX/SolarCity. Indefatigable and making the impossible into reality. Of course that's why I'm also hoping to have Tesla Powerwall battery module powering my Expedition Rig as well.
Thanks,
Wayno
Hi Biotect,
I don't think I can really speak as any case of expert to what science and technology separates the Slingshot from the rest of the competitive products out there. But that being said I can try to speak to the man, Dean Kamen, as I believe in him 100%. I've been a volunteer, coach, referee, otherwise involved with the FIRST Robotics organization, which he founded, for the past 13 years. www.usfirst.org And meeting Dean and hearing him speak, I have definitely drunk the Kool Aid so to speak in that I greatly admire him and everything he's done.
During the Slingshot documentary, they spoke of the inspiration behind the device and where he came up with the idea. Essentially, he helped invent medical devices earlier in his career including the world's first portable insulin pump. Another device he created was the world's first home dialysis machine so that people in need would not have to spend all of their time in a hospital or doctor's office and instead just use the machine at home.
Well the problem they then realized was that home water was not good enough to be medical grade and injected into people internally, so even though the machine was in your home, you would need hundreds of gallons of purified distilled medical grade water shipped to your home to use the device. So that then began his quest to figure out a way to get that purified water to the patients easier. Along the way realizing that the world is in dire need of such equipment to help solve the water problem globally. As he so often quotes in the videos you quoted and other interviews is that access to clean drinking water could eliminate 50% of all disease worldwide.
So I think a key to the device that Director Paul Lazarus talked about in the clip you posted in an interview regarding the Documentary is the energy requirements. Technically most all other types of water treatment solutions require you to know what you've got coming in in your inlet stream so you know the most effective way to clean it out. THis is evident in our overlanding world as well. Chlorine doesn't kill the same things as UV, and micropore filters also only rid certain things, etc. Whereas industrial scale medical purification plants use a distillation process where you get rid of anything that's in the water by boiling it off, and then recondensing it leaving just pure water. In this case it doesn't matter what you put in the inlet side. This goes from Mountain streams, to polluted rivers, or desert wells with floating camel carcasses, or even salmonella ridden dishwater.
What you get out is purified distilled medical grade injectable water. The problem is the energy requirement. The large scale factories are hugely intensive. On a smaller scale, to make it more energy efficient, Kamen and his team came up with some very efficient thermal energy recovery techniques so that the unit operates on only 1kW of power. The other part of it Kamen and company can bring to the table is their design of a Sterling Cycle Engine to power it possibly. The sterling being a very efficient purpose driven unit which is an external combustion engine where you don't need traditional fuel like gasoline to run it, but instead just a heat source. This heat source could again be anything from a boiler down to a dung powered campfire in Ghana.So I'm not sure if any of the competitor products are as well designed, or if it just takes a more holistic approach to come up with a small scale high grade purity water system with the thermal efficiencies, with the energy generation piece and the expertise that Dean Kamen and his team at DeKa are capable of achieving.
According to the documentary they built one of the systems and deployed it in Africa. But they needed a generator and fork lifts in the village to get it working and it was just way too complicated. After then partnering with Coca-Cola for some cash infusion and distribution channel, they built 15 units that were the size of a large kitchen refrigerator and costs on the order of $100k each. Then the followup was a task to build 50 of them and cut the cost by another order of magnitude. I think it will take a few more cycles and a few more years, but I believe that Kamen and his team will get there to meet the specs they've been throwing around. THat is to say, $1-$2k price, Small dorm size refrgerator package, and ~1kw of energy usage. Kamen has the tenacity and drive to make the impossible possible. He only works on problems which everyone else believes are impossible. In that way I can draw a lot of parallels to Elon Musk and Tesla/SpaceX/SolarCity. Indefatigable and making the impossible into reality. Of course that's why I'm also hoping to have Tesla Powerwall battery module powering my Expedition Rig as well.
Thanks,
Wayno
egn
Adventurer
The rain itself may contain some impurities, but they are easily filtered out by regular filters.
The problem with using rain water and also water from some of the water makers may be that it is to pure and has to be mineralized to be used as drinking water.
BTW, a regular air condition or an air dehumidifier can be used to get water from air. With regular filtering the water can be used without any problem. But you don't get near 100 l/day. You will be happy to cover the real drinking water use. To condensate 100 l/day you need an extraordinary amount of Energy. At a temperature of about 25° C you need about 70 kWh energy to condensate 100 l water. With a compressor cooler it would be about half. That isn't possible with solar.
The Ecoblue provides about 18 l/day with 50 % humidity with a operational wattage of 250-450 W. This means about 33-60 kWh per 100 l/d. You also have to manage all the cartridges.
The Pentek CBC-10 filter is not only a carbon filter. Like Katadyn it also filters everything down to 0.5 um. But it cannot filter saltwater or wastewater. For this you need RO. The problem with RO compared with regular filters is that depending on the water quality and power you may get only 1 l clean water from 10 l of waste water. The other 9 l are unusable for further filtering, because it is already concentrated. As mentioned, this works well on a boat with endless supply of water, but not with waste water. This kind of recycling is just not sustainable, as concentration is getting higher and higher, and you would need higher and higher power to push water through the membrane.
The Slingshot may be another solution, but currently its only vaporware. The real amount of energy has to been seen. You will also need some post processing like with Ecoblue. BTW, Ecoblue uses low pressure RO to cleanup nearly clean water and isn't able to handle salt water. And using soapy water from showers is also not possible, because this will clog filters immediately.
Why should someone boondock in areas where there is absolute no water available for month?
And when, then this areas are the ones where a AWG will produce a very low volume.
I think you should make a reality check here. :ylsmoke:
And also think about the energy requirements to run such systems for months in addition to air condition. Fuel will getting much more of a problem, except you find and Atmospheric Fuel Generator somewhere. :sombrero:
The problem with using rain water and also water from some of the water makers may be that it is to pure and has to be mineralized to be used as drinking water.
BTW, a regular air condition or an air dehumidifier can be used to get water from air. With regular filtering the water can be used without any problem. But you don't get near 100 l/day. You will be happy to cover the real drinking water use. To condensate 100 l/day you need an extraordinary amount of Energy. At a temperature of about 25° C you need about 70 kWh energy to condensate 100 l water. With a compressor cooler it would be about half. That isn't possible with solar.
The Ecoblue provides about 18 l/day with 50 % humidity with a operational wattage of 250-450 W. This means about 33-60 kWh per 100 l/d. You also have to manage all the cartridges.
The Pentek CBC-10 filter is not only a carbon filter. Like Katadyn it also filters everything down to 0.5 um. But it cannot filter saltwater or wastewater. For this you need RO. The problem with RO compared with regular filters is that depending on the water quality and power you may get only 1 l clean water from 10 l of waste water. The other 9 l are unusable for further filtering, because it is already concentrated. As mentioned, this works well on a boat with endless supply of water, but not with waste water. This kind of recycling is just not sustainable, as concentration is getting higher and higher, and you would need higher and higher power to push water through the membrane.
The Slingshot may be another solution, but currently its only vaporware. The real amount of energy has to been seen. You will also need some post processing like with Ecoblue. BTW, Ecoblue uses low pressure RO to cleanup nearly clean water and isn't able to handle salt water. And using soapy water from showers is also not possible, because this will clog filters immediately.
Why should someone boondock in areas where there is absolute no water available for month?
And when, then this areas are the ones where a AWG will produce a very low volume.
I think you should make a reality check here. :ylsmoke:
And also think about the energy requirements to run such systems for months in addition to air condition. Fuel will getting much more of a problem, except you find and Atmospheric Fuel Generator somewhere. :sombrero:
After single cycle, waste water is concentrated by 10%. I don't believe marine RO would fail after 10% increase in salt content.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seawater#Salinity says:
That's 20% already.
Overall, your waste content increases with each cycle, just like you say. One can't sustain it w/out dumping the waste sometimes.
But the Bio-proposed system does dump it. It burns the waste down in the toilet. So even assumming that water recovery has no waste density limits, the density will not grow to 100%, it will stabilise at some level.
It would be interesting to know what level would it be (probably varies a lot depending on use) and what recovery system would work with it. Is RO an option? Or maybe distillation is the only choice?
egn
Adventurer
If the same pressure is used at each cycle only the first cycle will deliver nearly all the clean water that is possible with this pressure. Further cycles will get much less, because the pump pressure is not high enough to overcome the osmosis pressure.
With distillation you can get nearly 100 %, but you have to be able to remove the waste in some way.
With distillation you can get nearly 100 %, but you have to be able to remove the waste in some way.
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I made a compilation of specs of various water makers based on Bio's list of producers:
http://www.spectrawatermakers.com/documents/Ventura 150-200T Specifications.pdf
RO, 27.2 kg, 30 l/h, 4.5 Wh/l
http://skwatermakers.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/DB_Manual.pdf
http://www.marinnovative.com/index.php?plugin=Products&id=157&title=dc-150-watermaker
DC 150, RO, 50 kg, 23-30 l/h, 10.9 Wh/l
http://www.schenker.it/en/watermaker-smart30-basic.php
filtering, 25 kg, 30 l/h, 3.66 Wh/l
http://www.schenker.it/en/watermaker-modular35-digital.php
filtering, 31 kg, 35 l/h, 2.86 Wh/l (site says 100W in some places and 110 in others)
http://www.searecovery.com/marine/uw/uw_specs.html
200 modular, RO, 59 kg, 32 l/h, 9 Wh/l
400 modular, RO, 63 kg, 63 l/h, 4.95 Wh/l
600 modular, RO, 68 kg, 95 l/h, 4.29 Wh/l
http://www.h2oonthego.com.au/Reverse-Osmosis-Watermaker
60 2 membranes, RO, ? kg, 100 l/h, 8.5 Wh/l
118 2 membranes, RO, ? kg, 196 l/h, 5.61 Wh/l
http://www.raindancewatersystems.com/wall_mount_water_filters.html
TSM-400, RO, 20.5 kg, 62.5 l/h, 19.97 Wh/l
TSM-800, RO, 22.7 kg, 125 l/h, 9.98 Wh/l
TSM-1200, RO, 22.7 kg, 187.5 l/h, 6.66 Wh/l
http://www.cruiserowaterandpower.com/20_GPH_Water_Maker.html
RO, 35.8 kg, 75.7l/h, 15.25 Wh/l
http://www.cruiserowaterandpower.com/30_GPH_Water_Maker_2.html
SM30-50Hz, RO, 40.8 kg, 132.5 l/h, 8.71 Wh/l
http://www.parker.com/Literature/Wa...e_Little_Wonder_and_Sea_Quencher_Bulletin.pdf
LWM-145, RO, 28 kg, 22 l/h, 7.09 Wh/l
LWM-200, RO, 31 kg, 30 l/h, 6.8 Wh/l
http://www.parker.com/Literature/Wa...Reverse Osmosis/D1HMB1-HRObrochure-091012.pdf
(Made by HRO)
Mini 170 24v, RO, 32 kg, 26 l/h, 12.92 Wh/l
Quest 200 24v, RO, 52 kg, 32 l/h, 7.88 Wh/l
Quest 400 24v, RO, 54 kg, 63 l/h, 4.95 Wh/l
Quest 600 24v, RO, 57 kg, 95 l/h, 5.05 Wh/l
http://www.parker.com/Literature/Wa...ief/Village_Marine_RUF-25_and_30_Bulletin.pdf
RUF-25-backpack, filtering, 14.3 kg, 95 l/h, 0.63 Wh/l
RUF-30-hard case, filtering, 22.7 kg, 114 l/h, 0.53 Wh/l
http://www.parker.com/literature/Wa...aside Properties/Village_Marine_AA_Series.pdf
AA-12514, RO, 24 kg, 33.3 l/h
AA-12521, RO, 26 kg, 54.1 l/h
AA-22521, RO, 30 kg, 112.5 l/h
AA-32521, RO, 34 kg, 158.3 l/h
http://www.hpwatermakers.co.uk/HPUC.htm
http://cc-eg.com/meca/uc.html
HP UC 35, RO, 25 kg, 35 l/h, 5.71 Wh/l
HP UC 70, RO, 45 kg, 70 l/h, 10.71 Wh/l
http://www.gea.com/global/en/binaries/TD-MA-SeaWaterDistiller-2012-06-EN_tcm11-23436.pdf
SWD 10, distillation, 600 kg, 417 l/h
http://fciwatermakers.com/products/aquamiser-plus.html
http://fciwatermakers.com/why-fci/fci-advantage.html
AM216S, RO, 61.6 kg, 39 l/h, 38.46 Wh/l
AM816S, RO, 72.5 kg, 126 l/h, 11.9 Wh/l
http://fciwatermakers.com/products/aqualite.html
http://fciwatermakers.com/why-fci/fci-advantage.html
ALT-200-2, RO, 30.84 kg, 31.53 l/h, 27.91 Wh/l
http://www.echotecwatermakers.com/dimensions_and_weights_dc.htm
http://www.echotecwatermakers.com/dc_watermakers_yachts.htm
200 - DML - 1, RO, 34.5 kg, 32 l/h, 7.13 Wh/l
http://www.enwa.com/content/download/4194/53484/file/Enwa FWG_150526.pdf
Enwa FWG, distillation, 112 kg, 333-417 l/h, ???
http://www.enwa.com/content/download/1034/48170/file/Watermaker_MT_1500-6000_eng_140820.pdf
MT-1500, RO, 55 kg, 62.5 l/h, 24 Wh/l
MT-2300, RO, 59 kg, 95.8 l/h, 15.65 Wh/l
MT-5500, RO, 91 kg, 229 l/h, 6.55 Wh/l
http://dometic3frontend.qbank.se/episerver/f48db3cd91ebb288ff33e95493b6329b.pdf
SSE350, RO, 54.4 kg, 54.4 kg, 55 l/h, 44.3 Wh/l
SSE1200, RO, 72.6 kg, 54.4 kg, 189 l/h, 12.9 Wh/l
http://www.doe.pl/INNE_PLIKI/DOE_PELICAN.pdf
PELICAN yacht, RO, 80 kg, 292 l/h, 10.28 Wh/l
http://www.dessalator.fr/uploads/tx_sbdownloader/SS-FREEDOM60.pdf
http://www.dessalator.fr/uploads/tx_sbdownloader/FREEDOM-60-ENG.pdf
http://www.dessalator.fr/en/products/dc-freedom-watermakers/
http://www.dessalator.fr/uploads/tx_sbdownloader/D440-1000-frame.pdf (used to guess output)
FREEDOM 60, RO, 38 kg, 60 l/h, 6.16 Wh/l
http://www.promac.nl/pages/gb/water_treatment/evaporators/
distillation, 83+ l/h
http://www.ampac1.com/industries/military-and-government/sw100.html
RO, 63.6 kg, 16.1 l/h
http://www.aquagiv-watermakers.com/en/watermakers/blue-serie/dimensions/
http://www.aquagiv-watermakers.com/en/watermakers/blue-serie/specifications/
110l-l-AC, RO, 36 kg, 110 l/h, 9.41 Wh/l
http://www.aquatec-watermaker.de/aquatec_watermaker_12volt_E.html
DC 320, RO, ? kg, 32 l/h, 7.42 Wh/l
http://www.aquatechsa.co.za/industrial-purifiers/#reverse_osmosis
AQ 2000, RO, 64 kg, 300 l/h
http://aqua-chem.com/products/mvc-distillation
http://aqua-chem.com/sites/default/files/mvc_generalarrangement_copy.jpg
SR200, distillation, 2400 kg, 758 l/h, 37 Wh/l
http://www.alfalaval.com/globalasse...water-makers-for-the-oil-and-gas-industry.pdf
ORCA Offshore 50, distillation, 3700 kg, 2083 l/h, 18 Wh/l
http://www.alfalaval.com/globalasse...r-generators-for-the-oil-and-gas-industry.pdf
DOLPHIN 20, distillation, 600 kg, 833 l/h, 716 Wh/l
http://www.alfalaval.com/globalasse...sh-water-generator/desalt-jwp-16-c-series.pdf
WP-16-C40, distillation, 200 kg, 62.5-292 l/h
ADDED:
http://hangyumarine.en.made-in-chin...tor-and-Condenser-Fresh-Water-Generators.html
.HYFWG-5, distillation, 350 kg, 208 l/h
http://www.meco.com/public/userfile...eets/MECO_OILGAS_Marine_Vapor_Compression.pdf
PEE300M3C, distillation, 2245 kg, 1250 l/h, 29.6 Wh/l
http://ntorreiro.es/en/productos/fontemar
60-80, distillation, 145 kg, 62.5 l/h, 29.6 Wh/l
TCS1, distillation, 170 kg, 83.3 l/h, 22.2 Wh/l
http://www.petertaboada.com/sw-s.html
10/12, RO, 55 kg, 50 l/h, 40 Wh/l
30/55, RO, 70 kg, 217 l/h, 10.15 Wh/l
http://www.gefico.com/#products
AQ-1/2, distillation, 184 kg, 41.7 l/h, 720 Wh/l
AQ-5/2, distillation, 750 kg, 208 l/h, 384 Wh/l
AQE-2D, RO, 120 kg, 66.7 l/h
http://www.katadyn.com/en/katadyn-p...powersurvivors/katadyn-powersurvivor-40e12-v/
RO, 11.3 kg, 5.7 l/h, 8.42 Wh/l
http://www.katadyn.com/en/katadyn-p...powersurvivors/katadyn-powersurvivor-80e12-v/
RO, 15.4 kg, 12.9 l/h, 7.44 Wh/l
http://www.spectrawatermakers.com/documents/Ventura 150-200T Specifications.pdf
RO, 27.2 kg, 30 l/h, 4.5 Wh/l
http://skwatermakers.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/DB_Manual.pdf
http://www.marinnovative.com/index.php?plugin=Products&id=157&title=dc-150-watermaker
DC 150, RO, 50 kg, 23-30 l/h, 10.9 Wh/l
http://www.schenker.it/en/watermaker-smart30-basic.php
filtering, 25 kg, 30 l/h, 3.66 Wh/l
http://www.schenker.it/en/watermaker-modular35-digital.php
filtering, 31 kg, 35 l/h, 2.86 Wh/l (site says 100W in some places and 110 in others)
http://www.searecovery.com/marine/uw/uw_specs.html
200 modular, RO, 59 kg, 32 l/h, 9 Wh/l
400 modular, RO, 63 kg, 63 l/h, 4.95 Wh/l
600 modular, RO, 68 kg, 95 l/h, 4.29 Wh/l
http://www.h2oonthego.com.au/Reverse-Osmosis-Watermaker
60 2 membranes, RO, ? kg, 100 l/h, 8.5 Wh/l
118 2 membranes, RO, ? kg, 196 l/h, 5.61 Wh/l
http://www.raindancewatersystems.com/wall_mount_water_filters.html
TSM-400, RO, 20.5 kg, 62.5 l/h, 19.97 Wh/l
TSM-800, RO, 22.7 kg, 125 l/h, 9.98 Wh/l
TSM-1200, RO, 22.7 kg, 187.5 l/h, 6.66 Wh/l
http://www.cruiserowaterandpower.com/20_GPH_Water_Maker.html
RO, 35.8 kg, 75.7l/h, 15.25 Wh/l
http://www.cruiserowaterandpower.com/30_GPH_Water_Maker_2.html
SM30-50Hz, RO, 40.8 kg, 132.5 l/h, 8.71 Wh/l
http://www.parker.com/Literature/Wa...e_Little_Wonder_and_Sea_Quencher_Bulletin.pdf
LWM-145, RO, 28 kg, 22 l/h, 7.09 Wh/l
LWM-200, RO, 31 kg, 30 l/h, 6.8 Wh/l
http://www.parker.com/Literature/Wa...Reverse Osmosis/D1HMB1-HRObrochure-091012.pdf
(Made by HRO)
Mini 170 24v, RO, 32 kg, 26 l/h, 12.92 Wh/l
Quest 200 24v, RO, 52 kg, 32 l/h, 7.88 Wh/l
Quest 400 24v, RO, 54 kg, 63 l/h, 4.95 Wh/l
Quest 600 24v, RO, 57 kg, 95 l/h, 5.05 Wh/l
http://www.parker.com/Literature/Wa...ief/Village_Marine_RUF-25_and_30_Bulletin.pdf
RUF-25-backpack, filtering, 14.3 kg, 95 l/h, 0.63 Wh/l
RUF-30-hard case, filtering, 22.7 kg, 114 l/h, 0.53 Wh/l
http://www.parker.com/literature/Wa...aside Properties/Village_Marine_AA_Series.pdf
AA-12514, RO, 24 kg, 33.3 l/h
AA-12521, RO, 26 kg, 54.1 l/h
AA-22521, RO, 30 kg, 112.5 l/h
AA-32521, RO, 34 kg, 158.3 l/h
http://www.hpwatermakers.co.uk/HPUC.htm
http://cc-eg.com/meca/uc.html
HP UC 35, RO, 25 kg, 35 l/h, 5.71 Wh/l
HP UC 70, RO, 45 kg, 70 l/h, 10.71 Wh/l
http://www.gea.com/global/en/binaries/TD-MA-SeaWaterDistiller-2012-06-EN_tcm11-23436.pdf
SWD 10, distillation, 600 kg, 417 l/h
http://fciwatermakers.com/products/aquamiser-plus.html
http://fciwatermakers.com/why-fci/fci-advantage.html
AM216S, RO, 61.6 kg, 39 l/h, 38.46 Wh/l
AM816S, RO, 72.5 kg, 126 l/h, 11.9 Wh/l
http://fciwatermakers.com/products/aqualite.html
http://fciwatermakers.com/why-fci/fci-advantage.html
ALT-200-2, RO, 30.84 kg, 31.53 l/h, 27.91 Wh/l
http://www.echotecwatermakers.com/dimensions_and_weights_dc.htm
http://www.echotecwatermakers.com/dc_watermakers_yachts.htm
200 - DML - 1, RO, 34.5 kg, 32 l/h, 7.13 Wh/l
http://www.enwa.com/content/download/4194/53484/file/Enwa FWG_150526.pdf
Enwa FWG, distillation, 112 kg, 333-417 l/h, ???
http://www.enwa.com/content/download/1034/48170/file/Watermaker_MT_1500-6000_eng_140820.pdf
MT-1500, RO, 55 kg, 62.5 l/h, 24 Wh/l
MT-2300, RO, 59 kg, 95.8 l/h, 15.65 Wh/l
MT-5500, RO, 91 kg, 229 l/h, 6.55 Wh/l
http://dometic3frontend.qbank.se/episerver/f48db3cd91ebb288ff33e95493b6329b.pdf
SSE350, RO, 54.4 kg, 54.4 kg, 55 l/h, 44.3 Wh/l
SSE1200, RO, 72.6 kg, 54.4 kg, 189 l/h, 12.9 Wh/l
http://www.doe.pl/INNE_PLIKI/DOE_PELICAN.pdf
PELICAN yacht, RO, 80 kg, 292 l/h, 10.28 Wh/l
http://www.dessalator.fr/uploads/tx_sbdownloader/SS-FREEDOM60.pdf
http://www.dessalator.fr/uploads/tx_sbdownloader/FREEDOM-60-ENG.pdf
http://www.dessalator.fr/en/products/dc-freedom-watermakers/
http://www.dessalator.fr/uploads/tx_sbdownloader/D440-1000-frame.pdf (used to guess output)
FREEDOM 60, RO, 38 kg, 60 l/h, 6.16 Wh/l
http://www.promac.nl/pages/gb/water_treatment/evaporators/
distillation, 83+ l/h
http://www.ampac1.com/industries/military-and-government/sw100.html
RO, 63.6 kg, 16.1 l/h
http://www.aquagiv-watermakers.com/en/watermakers/blue-serie/dimensions/
http://www.aquagiv-watermakers.com/en/watermakers/blue-serie/specifications/
110l-l-AC, RO, 36 kg, 110 l/h, 9.41 Wh/l
http://www.aquatec-watermaker.de/aquatec_watermaker_12volt_E.html
DC 320, RO, ? kg, 32 l/h, 7.42 Wh/l
http://www.aquatechsa.co.za/industrial-purifiers/#reverse_osmosis
AQ 2000, RO, 64 kg, 300 l/h
http://aqua-chem.com/products/mvc-distillation
http://aqua-chem.com/sites/default/files/mvc_generalarrangement_copy.jpg
SR200, distillation, 2400 kg, 758 l/h, 37 Wh/l
http://www.alfalaval.com/globalasse...water-makers-for-the-oil-and-gas-industry.pdf
ORCA Offshore 50, distillation, 3700 kg, 2083 l/h, 18 Wh/l
http://www.alfalaval.com/globalasse...r-generators-for-the-oil-and-gas-industry.pdf
DOLPHIN 20, distillation, 600 kg, 833 l/h, 716 Wh/l
http://www.alfalaval.com/globalasse...sh-water-generator/desalt-jwp-16-c-series.pdf
WP-16-C40, distillation, 200 kg, 62.5-292 l/h
ADDED:
http://hangyumarine.en.made-in-chin...tor-and-Condenser-Fresh-Water-Generators.html
.HYFWG-5, distillation, 350 kg, 208 l/h
http://www.meco.com/public/userfile...eets/MECO_OILGAS_Marine_Vapor_Compression.pdf
PEE300M3C, distillation, 2245 kg, 1250 l/h, 29.6 Wh/l
http://ntorreiro.es/en/productos/fontemar
60-80, distillation, 145 kg, 62.5 l/h, 29.6 Wh/l
TCS1, distillation, 170 kg, 83.3 l/h, 22.2 Wh/l
http://www.petertaboada.com/sw-s.html
10/12, RO, 55 kg, 50 l/h, 40 Wh/l
30/55, RO, 70 kg, 217 l/h, 10.15 Wh/l
http://www.gefico.com/#products
AQ-1/2, distillation, 184 kg, 41.7 l/h, 720 Wh/l
AQ-5/2, distillation, 750 kg, 208 l/h, 384 Wh/l
AQE-2D, RO, 120 kg, 66.7 l/h
http://www.katadyn.com/en/katadyn-p...powersurvivors/katadyn-powersurvivor-40e12-v/
RO, 11.3 kg, 5.7 l/h, 8.42 Wh/l
http://www.katadyn.com/en/katadyn-p...powersurvivors/katadyn-powersurvivor-80e12-v/
RO, 15.4 kg, 12.9 l/h, 7.44 Wh/l
Last edited:
biotect
Designer
Hi egn,
Thanks for the practical observations about the limits of RO, and for insight into the relatively "weak" nature of EcoloBlue's RO system. As you suggest, the EcoBlue's RO system is basically processing rainwater, so it doesn't need to be super-potent. But if recycling shower and washing machine water would require an RO system that's much more muscular, and that uses way too much power, then I would be tempted to just dump the shower waste-water into a grey tank, and install an AWG big enough that I wouldn't have to worry about not recycling. I would opt for the whole system to become much more "leaky" (as dwh might put it), with lots of water coming in via a relatively big AWG, and lots going out, via the greywater tank.
Sure, the TerraLiner might still use some of the greywater for flushing the vacuum toilet, but that's about it.
Now as near as I can tell, when compared to a standard, more "muscular" sort of Marine RO unit, an AWG that produces the same quantity of liters per day does not use as much power. Because the AWG is expending most of its energy trying to condense water from the atmosphere; not ramming water through a filter.
But if that does not seem correct (and please do correct me if I am wrong here!), then I would still want to explore yet more possible solutions (distillation?), solutions that go beyond mere carbon filtering of water sucked up from a stream or a lake.
**************************************************
1. Putting my Cards (and my Colon) on the Table
**************************************************
If carbon filtering has worked for you and your wife, egn, I can appreciate why you are such a big advocate. Carbon filtering is comparatively simple, and for you it has been safe.
But as I've mentioned a few times before in this thread, when I was still quite young I caught a bad case of Giardia in Nepal, and the Giardia then triggered the onset of Crohn's Disease, an auto-immune disorder of the upper intestine. I don't want to push the gory details onto everyone's ears here, in this post. So I went back and slightly modified an earlier post, explaining everything there instead -- see post #1446, at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...edition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page145 . Just skip towards the end, where you'll find some discussion, links, a video, and some maps about "open defecation" in Third World countries, India in particular. So if participants in this thread want to read and see a video about something really unpleasant, they will now have to open the link and skip back to that earlier post. It will then be their fault, their choice, not mine.....:sombrero:
egn: have you ever gotten really sick from a water-borne disease picked up in a Second or Third World country? In my own case, the experience changed my whole "relationship" to water. If the TerraLiner were to pull up to gas station in a Second or Third world city, even if the gas-station attendant swore an oath on his mother's life that tap-water in his city is clean and potable, I still would not trust him. I would still want to filter his tap-water through more than just a carbon filter. And yes, even if I only intended to shower with the water.
The bottom line for me is that a Carbon filtration alone won't strain out the Giardia that nearly ruined my life for 3 years. And if the Crohn's disease that the Giardia infection triggered had not been caught as early as it was caught, the Crohn's disease could have killed me.
So I respect the fact that you and your wife trust carbon filtering. But I do not.
I know too much about the levels of open defecation in Second and Third-world countries, and the idea of mere carbon filtering scares the hell out of me. I really want the TerraLiner to have maximal control over its water supply. I want there to be truly serious barriers between the water that the TerraLiner's occupants drink and shower with, and the pathogens living in the crap that literally covers the countryside in the world's less developed countries:
I may be wrong about this, but it seems that you've travelled with Blue Thunder mostly in ex-Soviet-bloc "Second World" countries, i.e. middle-income countries that try to do a reasonably good job with sanitation. But I want the TerraLiner to have more "reach" than that. No, again, the TerraLiner will not be traveling along mud tracks in the Congo. But it would be nice if the TerraLiner could travel the larger roads of India and Nepal. Or the larger roads in South America. However, although I love Indian food, literature, dance, Art, philosophy, religion, meditation, yoga, you name it, India is also the world capital of "open defecation". India is mecca for people who like to ******* in a field, as they exchange gossip with their neighbors.
So I need a water system for the TerraLiner that keeps the drinking water and the showering water very clearly separate from the Hindu *******. ... :sombrero:
**************************************************
2. "Slumming" with the TerraLiner's Water Supply would not be Ethical
**************************************************
As Dr. Julie Parsonnet once explained to me, after the first colonoscopy and barium enema conducted when I was studying at Stanford in California,
"Look, you don't have to go native. There's no nobility, no moral value, no karmic pay-off to pretending that you are a Third World peasant who is poor and who has few choices. Because you are not: you are a privileged, educated westerner who has many choices. And you mock them, and you sell yourself short, if you make a pretense of "slumming it" in a Third World country, by 'going native', whatever that might mean."
Dr. Parsonnet is one of the world's leading experts on infectious Third World diseases, and so she knows whereof she speaks -- see http://parsonnet.stanford.edu and https://med.stanford.edu/profiles/julie-parsonnet .
Dr. Parsonnet continued:
"I've had assistants come help me with my research projects, who begin feeling over-privlieged and guilty after a few weeks. They feel that it's not 'fair' somehow that they are protected by their First-World wealth, educations, and suitcases full of expensive First-World medicines, from diseases that are killing poor children in the village, children whose parents cannot afford even the most basic preventative measures. And indeed, it is not fair. So burdened with a rising sense of guilt, one day they suddenly snap and decide to 'go native': they eat a salad, or they drink some local speciality that's not made with boiled water. And then they get really sick. Once they get sick, they become useless to themselves, and they become useless to me. They can no longer do the job that they came there to do, so we have to fly them home.
People in these poor countries would live like us if they could, and it's stupid and condescending for us to then try to live like them them instead. I am there to do a job, and I am there to help people. So I have a professional duty to stay healthy myself.
For instance, amongst other things, I carry a thermometer wherever I go, and I test the temperature of the food whenever I eat at a restaurant. If the food is not hot enough, I send it back, and politely ask them to cook it some more. They are always obliging; but with a smile on their face, they ask me why. I explain that I am a doctor, and that cooking food a bit longer and more properly kills the germs that make people sick. I show them how I use my thermometer, and the temperature that the food needs to reach. They are always incredibly grateful, because they don't want their customers to become sick either! Sometimes they ask me if they can buy the thermometer."
Dr. Parsonnet is a super-nice, super-intelligent lady who has done a great deal of good with her life. So if Dr. Parsonett thinks it is ethical to try to keep her gut safe from Third-World pathogens, then I too think it is completely ethical to try to design the TerraLiner to do the same.
**************************************************
3. Bliss Mobil: A company that knows Water
**************************************************
At the end of the day, I don't really care what kind of water-replenisment, recycling, and purification system the TerraLiner uses. Just as long as more than mere carbon filtering is involved. And just as long as the TerraLiner is designed in the same spirit as those who designed the Bliss Mobil's capabilities.
Have you read the Bliss Mobil PDF that dwh provided? If you haven't yet, you should. In fact, everyone who wants to think seriously about how to design a large expedition motorhome, in this day and age, should spend at least a few hours exploring the Bliss Mobil website. See http://www.blissmobil.com/en/ , http://www.blissmobil.com/en/filosophy-en.html , http://www.blissmobil.com/images/Brochure/brochure_eng.pdf , http://www.blissmobil.com/en/products-en/23-foot/the-body-23ft.html , http://www.blissmobil.com/en/3d-tour-en/3d-tour-20ft.html , http://www.blissmobil.com/en/news-en.html , http://www.blissmobil.com/en/products-en/20-foot-body-en/interior.html , http://www.blissmobil.com/images/Brochure/Specsheet-UK_18_20_23_v4.pdf , and http://www.blissmobil.com/images/Brochure/Accessories_Bliss_ENG_small.pdf :
And see the playlist at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1v_FdZYzqU3ofi31kmQY_g/videos , https://www.youtube.com/user/BlissMobil , https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCW1DM6ovKhfGJcOVSKrz0CA , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_39zmVvq6g , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycquHpq5fEQ , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffAisjdiVgg , and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBXRhQwkvbE .
Sure, it's not fully integrated "Liner" design, it's not organically curvilinear, and it's still the same old basic "box-stuck-on-the-back-of-a-dump-truck" expedition motorhome format. But Bliss Mobil seems to have thought through the engineering of camper-box mechanical systems to a completely new level. And in particular, it seems that Bliss-Mobil gave a huge amount of time and energy to thinking through water.
Bliss Mobil seems to really understand water: they understand that water is the alpha and omega of motorhoming comfort. As such, they are not willing to accept "watery half-measures". Bliss Mobil's philosophy is that one should be able to travel the world in an expedition motorhome and never have to worry about the quality or quantity of the water that one is using. See http://www.blissmobil.com/en/products-en/23-foot/water-23ft.html and http://www.blissmobil.com/en/products-en/23-foot/water-23ft/1117-recycling-of-water-23-ft.html .
For instance, one should not have to go through the torture of habituating oneself and one's wife to showers that consume 15 Liters of water or less.....:coffeedrink:
Bliss Mobil's philosophy is simple:
In your expedition motorhome you should be able to use as much water as you want, whenever you want, and it should always be high quality.
That's music to my ears: I have never seen this idea articulated so clearly before, with such force, by any serious participant in the world of expedition motorhome design.
**************************************************
4. What is the Make and Model of Bliss Mobil's Watermaker?
**************************************************
My only complaint?
I really want to know what marine-grade Watermaker Bliss Mobil is using!!! They provide an image that is completely nondescript:
And the CAD models of the system as a whole do not help much either:
Blissmobile only states that "the 23-ft comes standard with a high tech and compact water maker, based on high pressure membrane filtering, with a capacity of producing 70-100 liters clean water per hour."
So if anyone reading the knows make and model of the WaterMaker that Bliss Mobil uses, by all means, PLEASE POST!!!! :sunny:
**************************************************
5. Summary
**************************************************
Clearly, I have multiple and diverse reasons for wanting to investigate slightly more "exotic" solutions to the problem of water-replenishment, solutions like "Atmospheric Water Generators", or AWGs.
(1) I want the TerraLiner to have a water system that is every bit as "copious" or "liberal" as the system that Bliss Mobil claims that it can now deliver. I want the TerraLiner's occupants to never have to worry about water: how many showers they take, and for how long; or how many loads of laundry they do per month. I want such typical RV worries to never plague TerraLiner users.
(2) I want the design-freedom that water abundance would give me. The freedom to design a truly "optimal" RV bathtub, a bathtub unconstrained by worries about water consumption.
(3) I want the TerraLiner to be able to easily replenish its water supply as far as possible without needing to pull water from a local stream or lake. I just don't trust ground sources. Whereas I do trust rainwater, as collected on Bliss Mobil's roof. And I trust ambient water vapor, as collected by an AWG.
(4) But sometimes one travels through very dry regions where both rain and humidity are scarce. In those regions one will have no choice but to suck up water with a hose from a source on the ground. When that happens, I want the TerraLiner to have a purification system that 100 % guarantees that no fecal pathogens will ever contaminate its drinking and bathing water.
(5) I want at least the possibility that the TerraLiner could boondock somewhere remotely for a few months, in total self-sufficiency. Some people, including myself, love solitude. We actually like being alone in nature for days, weeks, or even months on end. I get the feeling that Rob Gray is a bit like this. I am too, except that there's also another part of my psyche that likes the exact opposite, that loves big cities. The bigger the city, the better.
You either "get" the boondocking thing, or you don't. Experiencing vast stretches of comparative wilderness for days on end in solitude, or with just one other person: there's nothing quite like it.
In such places there will always be water, in one form or another. For instance, although the Tibetan Plateau is exceptionally dry, with an average annual relative humidity level of less than 10 %, the Tibetan Plateau is also covered with large lakes and streams. Or even though the Atacama and Namib deserts are some of the driest places on earth, they are located right beside oceans, oceans that could provide abundant water if one had a Watermaker on board that can handle salt water, perhaps like the one used by Bliss Mobil......
Other deserts, although short on rainfall, are high on humidity: for instance, the shoreline of North Africa that runs along the Mediterranean, or the southern shoreline of the Arabian peninsula, or Baja California. All of these are "Coastal Fog Deserts", deserts that have little rainfall, but paradoxically high levels of humidity, blown in from the ocean in the form of fog. The Atacama desert is like this, too, and technically also the Namib desert, although in the latter the fog doesn't seem to want to come inland all that much. But somewhere like the Baja California desert seems an ideal place to get an AWG pumping out water once the fog rolls in.
In short, I want a water system for the TerraLiner that allows maximum freedom to go wherever one likes, and stay for as long as one likes, without ever having to worry about water. Fuel? Sure, that's another matter. But presumably solar cells will take care of almost all power needs when boondocking. So the only thing that remains would be the size and quality of the food supply. And turns out that here, too, Bliss Mobil has some interesting ideas: for instance, an Aerogel-insulated freezer that they claim can store enough food to feed four people for three months -- see http://www.blissmobil.com/en/products-en/23-foot/interior-23ft.html .
************************************************** **
Now egn, you say that RO is simply impractical and does not make sense in an expedition motorhome. But it seems that Bliss Mobil disagrees with you. It would then be interesting to know exactly why Bliss Mobil disagree with you. And why they are building and selling a product that seems to have solved all the problems that you thought were insurmountable.....? Perhaps the Watermaker they are using is not RO? Except that Bliss Mobil does say it involves "high pressure membrane filtering". Sounds like RO, but maybe it's something else? It does not sound like distillation.
In short, dwh is right: the mere facticity, the existential reality, of the Bliss Mobil, makes a very powerful argument in favor of using Watermaking technology in a contemporary expedition motorhome.
How do you think Bliss Mobil pulls it off? Might you know the Watermaker that they use?
All best wishes,
Biotect
P.S. -- Will now move back to finishing that series of posts about worldwide relative humidity levels, and those surreal, weird bits of geography called "Coastal Fog Deserts" -- see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fog_desert and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabian_Peninsula_coastal_fog_desert .....
Thanks for the practical observations about the limits of RO, and for insight into the relatively "weak" nature of EcoloBlue's RO system. As you suggest, the EcoBlue's RO system is basically processing rainwater, so it doesn't need to be super-potent. But if recycling shower and washing machine water would require an RO system that's much more muscular, and that uses way too much power, then I would be tempted to just dump the shower waste-water into a grey tank, and install an AWG big enough that I wouldn't have to worry about not recycling. I would opt for the whole system to become much more "leaky" (as dwh might put it), with lots of water coming in via a relatively big AWG, and lots going out, via the greywater tank.
Sure, the TerraLiner might still use some of the greywater for flushing the vacuum toilet, but that's about it.
Now as near as I can tell, when compared to a standard, more "muscular" sort of Marine RO unit, an AWG that produces the same quantity of liters per day does not use as much power. Because the AWG is expending most of its energy trying to condense water from the atmosphere; not ramming water through a filter.
But if that does not seem correct (and please do correct me if I am wrong here!), then I would still want to explore yet more possible solutions (distillation?), solutions that go beyond mere carbon filtering of water sucked up from a stream or a lake.
**************************************************
1. Putting my Cards (and my Colon) on the Table
**************************************************
If carbon filtering has worked for you and your wife, egn, I can appreciate why you are such a big advocate. Carbon filtering is comparatively simple, and for you it has been safe.
But as I've mentioned a few times before in this thread, when I was still quite young I caught a bad case of Giardia in Nepal, and the Giardia then triggered the onset of Crohn's Disease, an auto-immune disorder of the upper intestine. I don't want to push the gory details onto everyone's ears here, in this post. So I went back and slightly modified an earlier post, explaining everything there instead -- see post #1446, at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...edition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page145 . Just skip towards the end, where you'll find some discussion, links, a video, and some maps about "open defecation" in Third World countries, India in particular. So if participants in this thread want to read and see a video about something really unpleasant, they will now have to open the link and skip back to that earlier post. It will then be their fault, their choice, not mine.....:sombrero:
egn: have you ever gotten really sick from a water-borne disease picked up in a Second or Third World country? In my own case, the experience changed my whole "relationship" to water. If the TerraLiner were to pull up to gas station in a Second or Third world city, even if the gas-station attendant swore an oath on his mother's life that tap-water in his city is clean and potable, I still would not trust him. I would still want to filter his tap-water through more than just a carbon filter. And yes, even if I only intended to shower with the water.
The bottom line for me is that a Carbon filtration alone won't strain out the Giardia that nearly ruined my life for 3 years. And if the Crohn's disease that the Giardia infection triggered had not been caught as early as it was caught, the Crohn's disease could have killed me.
So I respect the fact that you and your wife trust carbon filtering. But I do not.
I know too much about the levels of open defecation in Second and Third-world countries, and the idea of mere carbon filtering scares the hell out of me. I really want the TerraLiner to have maximal control over its water supply. I want there to be truly serious barriers between the water that the TerraLiner's occupants drink and shower with, and the pathogens living in the crap that literally covers the countryside in the world's less developed countries:
I may be wrong about this, but it seems that you've travelled with Blue Thunder mostly in ex-Soviet-bloc "Second World" countries, i.e. middle-income countries that try to do a reasonably good job with sanitation. But I want the TerraLiner to have more "reach" than that. No, again, the TerraLiner will not be traveling along mud tracks in the Congo. But it would be nice if the TerraLiner could travel the larger roads of India and Nepal. Or the larger roads in South America. However, although I love Indian food, literature, dance, Art, philosophy, religion, meditation, yoga, you name it, India is also the world capital of "open defecation". India is mecca for people who like to ******* in a field, as they exchange gossip with their neighbors.
So I need a water system for the TerraLiner that keeps the drinking water and the showering water very clearly separate from the Hindu *******. ... :sombrero:
**************************************************
2. "Slumming" with the TerraLiner's Water Supply would not be Ethical
**************************************************
As Dr. Julie Parsonnet once explained to me, after the first colonoscopy and barium enema conducted when I was studying at Stanford in California,
"Look, you don't have to go native. There's no nobility, no moral value, no karmic pay-off to pretending that you are a Third World peasant who is poor and who has few choices. Because you are not: you are a privileged, educated westerner who has many choices. And you mock them, and you sell yourself short, if you make a pretense of "slumming it" in a Third World country, by 'going native', whatever that might mean."
Dr. Parsonnet is one of the world's leading experts on infectious Third World diseases, and so she knows whereof she speaks -- see http://parsonnet.stanford.edu and https://med.stanford.edu/profiles/julie-parsonnet .
Dr. Parsonnet continued:
"I've had assistants come help me with my research projects, who begin feeling over-privlieged and guilty after a few weeks. They feel that it's not 'fair' somehow that they are protected by their First-World wealth, educations, and suitcases full of expensive First-World medicines, from diseases that are killing poor children in the village, children whose parents cannot afford even the most basic preventative measures. And indeed, it is not fair. So burdened with a rising sense of guilt, one day they suddenly snap and decide to 'go native': they eat a salad, or they drink some local speciality that's not made with boiled water. And then they get really sick. Once they get sick, they become useless to themselves, and they become useless to me. They can no longer do the job that they came there to do, so we have to fly them home.
People in these poor countries would live like us if they could, and it's stupid and condescending for us to then try to live like them them instead. I am there to do a job, and I am there to help people. So I have a professional duty to stay healthy myself.
For instance, amongst other things, I carry a thermometer wherever I go, and I test the temperature of the food whenever I eat at a restaurant. If the food is not hot enough, I send it back, and politely ask them to cook it some more. They are always obliging; but with a smile on their face, they ask me why. I explain that I am a doctor, and that cooking food a bit longer and more properly kills the germs that make people sick. I show them how I use my thermometer, and the temperature that the food needs to reach. They are always incredibly grateful, because they don't want their customers to become sick either! Sometimes they ask me if they can buy the thermometer."
Dr. Parsonnet is a super-nice, super-intelligent lady who has done a great deal of good with her life. So if Dr. Parsonett thinks it is ethical to try to keep her gut safe from Third-World pathogens, then I too think it is completely ethical to try to design the TerraLiner to do the same.
**************************************************
3. Bliss Mobil: A company that knows Water
**************************************************
At the end of the day, I don't really care what kind of water-replenisment, recycling, and purification system the TerraLiner uses. Just as long as more than mere carbon filtering is involved. And just as long as the TerraLiner is designed in the same spirit as those who designed the Bliss Mobil's capabilities.
Have you read the Bliss Mobil PDF that dwh provided? If you haven't yet, you should. In fact, everyone who wants to think seriously about how to design a large expedition motorhome, in this day and age, should spend at least a few hours exploring the Bliss Mobil website. See http://www.blissmobil.com/en/ , http://www.blissmobil.com/en/filosophy-en.html , http://www.blissmobil.com/images/Brochure/brochure_eng.pdf , http://www.blissmobil.com/en/products-en/23-foot/the-body-23ft.html , http://www.blissmobil.com/en/3d-tour-en/3d-tour-20ft.html , http://www.blissmobil.com/en/news-en.html , http://www.blissmobil.com/en/products-en/20-foot-body-en/interior.html , http://www.blissmobil.com/images/Brochure/Specsheet-UK_18_20_23_v4.pdf , and http://www.blissmobil.com/images/Brochure/Accessories_Bliss_ENG_small.pdf :
And see the playlist at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1v_FdZYzqU3ofi31kmQY_g/videos , https://www.youtube.com/user/BlissMobil , https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCW1DM6ovKhfGJcOVSKrz0CA , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_39zmVvq6g , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycquHpq5fEQ , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffAisjdiVgg , and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBXRhQwkvbE .
Sure, it's not fully integrated "Liner" design, it's not organically curvilinear, and it's still the same old basic "box-stuck-on-the-back-of-a-dump-truck" expedition motorhome format. But Bliss Mobil seems to have thought through the engineering of camper-box mechanical systems to a completely new level. And in particular, it seems that Bliss-Mobil gave a huge amount of time and energy to thinking through water.
Bliss Mobil seems to really understand water: they understand that water is the alpha and omega of motorhoming comfort. As such, they are not willing to accept "watery half-measures". Bliss Mobil's philosophy is that one should be able to travel the world in an expedition motorhome and never have to worry about the quality or quantity of the water that one is using. See http://www.blissmobil.com/en/products-en/23-foot/water-23ft.html and http://www.blissmobil.com/en/products-en/23-foot/water-23ft/1117-recycling-of-water-23-ft.html .
For instance, one should not have to go through the torture of habituating oneself and one's wife to showers that consume 15 Liters of water or less.....:coffeedrink:
Bliss Mobil's philosophy is simple:
In your expedition motorhome you should be able to use as much water as you want, whenever you want, and it should always be high quality.
That's music to my ears: I have never seen this idea articulated so clearly before, with such force, by any serious participant in the world of expedition motorhome design.
**************************************************
4. What is the Make and Model of Bliss Mobil's Watermaker?
**************************************************
My only complaint?
I really want to know what marine-grade Watermaker Bliss Mobil is using!!! They provide an image that is completely nondescript:
And the CAD models of the system as a whole do not help much either:
Blissmobile only states that "the 23-ft comes standard with a high tech and compact water maker, based on high pressure membrane filtering, with a capacity of producing 70-100 liters clean water per hour."
So if anyone reading the knows make and model of the WaterMaker that Bliss Mobil uses, by all means, PLEASE POST!!!! :sunny:
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5. Summary
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Clearly, I have multiple and diverse reasons for wanting to investigate slightly more "exotic" solutions to the problem of water-replenishment, solutions like "Atmospheric Water Generators", or AWGs.
(1) I want the TerraLiner to have a water system that is every bit as "copious" or "liberal" as the system that Bliss Mobil claims that it can now deliver. I want the TerraLiner's occupants to never have to worry about water: how many showers they take, and for how long; or how many loads of laundry they do per month. I want such typical RV worries to never plague TerraLiner users.
(2) I want the design-freedom that water abundance would give me. The freedom to design a truly "optimal" RV bathtub, a bathtub unconstrained by worries about water consumption.
(3) I want the TerraLiner to be able to easily replenish its water supply as far as possible without needing to pull water from a local stream or lake. I just don't trust ground sources. Whereas I do trust rainwater, as collected on Bliss Mobil's roof. And I trust ambient water vapor, as collected by an AWG.
(4) But sometimes one travels through very dry regions where both rain and humidity are scarce. In those regions one will have no choice but to suck up water with a hose from a source on the ground. When that happens, I want the TerraLiner to have a purification system that 100 % guarantees that no fecal pathogens will ever contaminate its drinking and bathing water.
(5) I want at least the possibility that the TerraLiner could boondock somewhere remotely for a few months, in total self-sufficiency. Some people, including myself, love solitude. We actually like being alone in nature for days, weeks, or even months on end. I get the feeling that Rob Gray is a bit like this. I am too, except that there's also another part of my psyche that likes the exact opposite, that loves big cities. The bigger the city, the better.
You either "get" the boondocking thing, or you don't. Experiencing vast stretches of comparative wilderness for days on end in solitude, or with just one other person: there's nothing quite like it.
In such places there will always be water, in one form or another. For instance, although the Tibetan Plateau is exceptionally dry, with an average annual relative humidity level of less than 10 %, the Tibetan Plateau is also covered with large lakes and streams. Or even though the Atacama and Namib deserts are some of the driest places on earth, they are located right beside oceans, oceans that could provide abundant water if one had a Watermaker on board that can handle salt water, perhaps like the one used by Bliss Mobil......
Other deserts, although short on rainfall, are high on humidity: for instance, the shoreline of North Africa that runs along the Mediterranean, or the southern shoreline of the Arabian peninsula, or Baja California. All of these are "Coastal Fog Deserts", deserts that have little rainfall, but paradoxically high levels of humidity, blown in from the ocean in the form of fog. The Atacama desert is like this, too, and technically also the Namib desert, although in the latter the fog doesn't seem to want to come inland all that much. But somewhere like the Baja California desert seems an ideal place to get an AWG pumping out water once the fog rolls in.
In short, I want a water system for the TerraLiner that allows maximum freedom to go wherever one likes, and stay for as long as one likes, without ever having to worry about water. Fuel? Sure, that's another matter. But presumably solar cells will take care of almost all power needs when boondocking. So the only thing that remains would be the size and quality of the food supply. And turns out that here, too, Bliss Mobil has some interesting ideas: for instance, an Aerogel-insulated freezer that they claim can store enough food to feed four people for three months -- see http://www.blissmobil.com/en/products-en/23-foot/interior-23ft.html .
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Now egn, you say that RO is simply impractical and does not make sense in an expedition motorhome. But it seems that Bliss Mobil disagrees with you. It would then be interesting to know exactly why Bliss Mobil disagree with you. And why they are building and selling a product that seems to have solved all the problems that you thought were insurmountable.....? Perhaps the Watermaker they are using is not RO? Except that Bliss Mobil does say it involves "high pressure membrane filtering". Sounds like RO, but maybe it's something else? It does not sound like distillation.
In short, dwh is right: the mere facticity, the existential reality, of the Bliss Mobil, makes a very powerful argument in favor of using Watermaking technology in a contemporary expedition motorhome.
How do you think Bliss Mobil pulls it off? Might you know the Watermaker that they use?
All best wishes,
Biotect
P.S. -- Will now move back to finishing that series of posts about worldwide relative humidity levels, and those surreal, weird bits of geography called "Coastal Fog Deserts" -- see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fog_desert and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabian_Peninsula_coastal_fog_desert .....
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egn
Adventurer
It is the other way around:
The AWG uses much more energy per l water than RO (~100 times).
Distillation is similar to AWG regarding energy use as you have to generate steam and cool this down again. You can recover some heat, but I assume it is far from as good as RO.
I have already written that the CBC-10 filters are no pure carbon filters. They can remove everything larger than 0.5 um, like Giardia and other bacterias. Please read the specification again.
A German distributor provides the following list:
Asbest, Bakterien/Pilze/Keime, Chlor, Einzeller/größere Erreger, Fauler Geruch/Geschmack, Kohlenwasserstoff
e CKW ́s, Pestizide/Desinfektionsmittel, Radioaktive Partikel, Schmutz/Sedimente, Viren
This works as long as the particles are larger than 0.5um.
I am kind of curious about water in Bliss Mobile vehicle concept. Actually it looks more like generating an artificial USP to justify the very high price. I looked at their vehicle last year in Bad Kissingen and wasn't impressed. Especially for long-term travel it wasn't enough storage space available. They generated a lot of USPs that are not practical or no one needs.
There are thousands of travelers world wide that have no problem to get access to drinking water, even in remote locations. As Bliss Mobil is a rather small company with only a few vehicles sold, it has to be proven that this systems work in reality for years. And of course it has to be practical.
You can actually put any of the smaller marine water makers into this box. And I don't think that rain water from the roof covered with bird ******** is better than water from a lake or local stream. :sombrero:
The AWG uses much more energy per l water than RO (~100 times).
Distillation is similar to AWG regarding energy use as you have to generate steam and cool this down again. You can recover some heat, but I assume it is far from as good as RO.
I have already written that the CBC-10 filters are no pure carbon filters. They can remove everything larger than 0.5 um, like Giardia and other bacterias. Please read the specification again.
A German distributor provides the following list:
Asbest, Bakterien/Pilze/Keime, Chlor, Einzeller/größere Erreger, Fauler Geruch/Geschmack, Kohlenwasserstoff
e CKW ́s, Pestizide/Desinfektionsmittel, Radioaktive Partikel, Schmutz/Sedimente, Viren
This works as long as the particles are larger than 0.5um.
I am kind of curious about water in Bliss Mobile vehicle concept. Actually it looks more like generating an artificial USP to justify the very high price. I looked at their vehicle last year in Bad Kissingen and wasn't impressed. Especially for long-term travel it wasn't enough storage space available. They generated a lot of USPs that are not practical or no one needs.
There are thousands of travelers world wide that have no problem to get access to drinking water, even in remote locations. As Bliss Mobil is a rather small company with only a few vehicles sold, it has to be proven that this systems work in reality for years. And of course it has to be practical.
You can actually put any of the smaller marine water makers into this box. And I don't think that rain water from the roof covered with bird ******** is better than water from a lake or local stream. :sombrero:
Idea: you burn your waste. How about recovering moisture from that? And I wonder if efficiency improvements in distillery (like pressure-increase) are applicable to burning ****. I guess yes.
Anyway, when considering boondocking I would be much more concerned about fuel than water.
Bio, with regard to efficiency, read the numbers that me and egn posted. AWG is terribly inefficient and not sustainable on solar. Reduce your weight savings by carrying extra fuel.
I posted a summary of specs of many water makers a few hours ago, but the forum seems to have eaten that. Because of 2 posts in a row? Or maybe I've done something wrong.
I will repost tomorrow, for now some data from memory.
Anyway, there are RO systems with energy recovery under 30 kg with ~4.5 Wh/l
Distillation systems that I found are usually huge and extremely variable when it comes to efficiency. The best one that I found was 22.x Wh/l with the weight of <200 kg. But is is so outstanding that I wonder if I understand it right, other small ones used (IIRC) >700 Wh/l.
BTW I view a good water recovery system, one that leaves very little dirty fluid, a major step toward flush-and forget. When you can afford to burn all your waste, you free yourself from some dirty (and stinky) work.
And there's no problem with leaving a puddle of excrement on the side of the road when there's no better draining place.
Anyway, when considering boondocking I would be much more concerned about fuel than water.
Bio, with regard to efficiency, read the numbers that me and egn posted. AWG is terribly inefficient and not sustainable on solar. Reduce your weight savings by carrying extra fuel.
I posted a summary of specs of many water makers a few hours ago, but the forum seems to have eaten that. Because of 2 posts in a row? Or maybe I've done something wrong.
I will repost tomorrow, for now some data from memory.
Anyway, there are RO systems with energy recovery under 30 kg with ~4.5 Wh/l
Distillation systems that I found are usually huge and extremely variable when it comes to efficiency. The best one that I found was 22.x Wh/l with the weight of <200 kg. But is is so outstanding that I wonder if I understand it right, other small ones used (IIRC) >700 Wh/l.
BTW I view a good water recovery system, one that leaves very little dirty fluid, a major step toward flush-and forget. When you can afford to burn all your waste, you free yourself from some dirty (and stinky) work.
And there's no problem with leaving a puddle of excrement on the side of the road when there's no better draining place.
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x banana boy
New member
Bio, you might want to ask LoRoad. He is getting his custom camper built by Bliss Mobil.
dwh
Tail-End Charlie
I think power consumption is a bit of a red herring here.
The AWG doesn't have to run all the time - it only needs to run enough to top off the system. (The RO doesn't run all the time either.)
So let's first assume that there are level gauges in the fresh and grey tanks. (A safe assumption. )
When the fresh tank is down to say 50% (to make sure there is room enough in the fresh tank) AND the grey tank is up to 75%, THEN the grey filtration/RO starts up and filter/pumps waste water to the fresh tank. When the grey is down to say, 25%, the filter/pump shuts off.
(Also, by doing it that way, the water pickup in the grey tank can be above the "gunk level" so the filter system doesn't actually need to deal with the worst of the gunk - that goes away whenever the grey tank is dumped normally - which needs to be done regularly anyway to clean the slimy bottom crud out. Might need to install a baffle to act as a "gunk trap" in the bottom of the grey tank below the recycling pickup.)
Now if the grey is down to 25% (it's already been filtered and pumped) AND the fresh is less than 75%, THEN the AWG comes on to bring up the level in the fresh tank to 75%, thus bringing the entire system up to "nominal operating parameters".
By a simple comparison of the levels of the fresh and grey tanks, one can easily determine (calculate) the amount of water needed to bring the system up to nominal. That would only matter though if taking on water from an outside source. The rain water collection would also need a diverter, so that the rain water stops flowing into the grey tank when the system is at nominal.
Now, the low estimated power consumption (145w/hour) of the little 8g/day Gr8 Water AWG that I got by dividing 3,500w by 24h may be due to it NOT having any sort of water processing. Maybe no UV. Maybe no RO. The Ecoloblue 30 DOES have these things, and uses 250w - 450w during normal operation. (Caveat: bio said it has RO - I don't remember that. I have my doubts. It does have UV, it does have filtration...RO...I'm not so sure. But whatever.)
(I was going to produce a cave painting to illustrate this next bit...but just realized that my fresh Lunix install doesn't have any graphics manipulation program installed, and I don't feel like messing with it right now...so I'm just going to wing it verbally...)
An AWG _is_ an air conditioner. It is EXACTLY the same technology. The only difference, is the air flow pattern.
With an a/c unit, the air from the inside is drawn over cold coils and dumped back into the inside. This does cause moisture in the air to consdense, which is why all a/c units have a way to dump the collected water.
Heat, which is removed from the inside air and relocated into freon is then moved to the outside hot coils, where outside (ambient) air is sucked in and moved over the hot coils to shed the heat to the outside.
So with an a/c you have TWO separate and distinct air flows - both recirculating - one on the inside and one on the outside. It's not an efficient water gathering device, because each time the inside air is cooled, a bit of moisture is extracted, and the next time there is less water to extract.
Now take that exact same machinery, and change the air flow pattern to make an AWG...
Air is drawn in from outside (ambient) and run across the cold coils. As the heat is removed from the air, moisure is condensed. The heat is moved from the air into the freon which moves the heat to hot coils.
Then, take that COOLED AND DRYED air and flow it straight though the machine and flow it ACROSS THE HOT COILS. This picks up the previously removed heat, and moves it from the freon back to the cold air, which is dumped back outside to the ambient.
So with an AWG, you have ONE air flow - outside air across the cold coils, then across the hot coils, and back to the outside.
In this way, the incoming air always contains a "full charge" of moisture, so the machine produces a LOT more water than an a/c unit. Also, because heat is extracted from the air, but that cold air is then used to extract the heat from the freon, it is much more efficient than an a/c, which only has ambient (which will obviously be already rather hot) air to blow across the hot coils to cool them - and also has to move TWICE AS MUCH AIR.
So it really doesn't matter that the AWG uses more power than the RO; neither one runs continuously. And a small AWG to just keep the system topped off is not going to use more power than a small a/c unit. In fact, it uses less because it's more efficent at removing heat from the freon and only has to move half as much air.
Now consider this: The Midnite Solar Classic solar charge controller can also be used for wind systems. Solar does not need a "dump load", since it can simply be switched off when the batteries are full, unlike a wind generator which can overspeed if there is no load on it.
So the Midnite Classic has a connection to control a relay to activate a dump load. When the batteries are full, it trips the relay and turns on the dump load.
That same functionality can be used another way; load shifting. For instance it could be used to control a relay which turns the power to the AWG and the filter/pump on and off. That way, the recycling and water making functions only have power after the battery bank has been topped off. Driving the vehicle [EDIT: Sorry...forgot for a minute; it's The Terraliner! - should say, "Running the generators"] would of course also bring up the battery voltage, and automatically enable the recycling and water making.
Another safe assumption is that some thought will be given to proper power/battery/load management.
And then...there's that pesky bathtub.
I would say...take fresh water and fill the tub, and empty the tub into the grey tank for processing back into the fresh tank. This would require a bit of juggling of the fresh/grey tank sizes and fill levels to insure there was always enough room in the tanks to move the water around, and also juggling the automatic level sensing and automatic water making and recycling, but is not that big a deal really.
The AWG doesn't have to run all the time - it only needs to run enough to top off the system. (The RO doesn't run all the time either.)
So let's first assume that there are level gauges in the fresh and grey tanks. (A safe assumption.
)When the fresh tank is down to say 50% (to make sure there is room enough in the fresh tank) AND the grey tank is up to 75%, THEN the grey filtration/RO starts up and filter/pumps waste water to the fresh tank. When the grey is down to say, 25%, the filter/pump shuts off.
(Also, by doing it that way, the water pickup in the grey tank can be above the "gunk level" so the filter system doesn't actually need to deal with the worst of the gunk - that goes away whenever the grey tank is dumped normally - which needs to be done regularly anyway to clean the slimy bottom crud out. Might need to install a baffle to act as a "gunk trap" in the bottom of the grey tank below the recycling pickup.)
Now if the grey is down to 25% (it's already been filtered and pumped) AND the fresh is less than 75%, THEN the AWG comes on to bring up the level in the fresh tank to 75%, thus bringing the entire system up to "nominal operating parameters".
By a simple comparison of the levels of the fresh and grey tanks, one can easily determine (calculate) the amount of water needed to bring the system up to nominal. That would only matter though if taking on water from an outside source. The rain water collection would also need a diverter, so that the rain water stops flowing into the grey tank when the system is at nominal.
Now, the low estimated power consumption (145w/hour) of the little 8g/day Gr8 Water AWG that I got by dividing 3,500w by 24h may be due to it NOT having any sort of water processing. Maybe no UV. Maybe no RO. The Ecoloblue 30 DOES have these things, and uses 250w - 450w during normal operation. (Caveat: bio said it has RO - I don't remember that. I have my doubts. It does have UV, it does have filtration...RO...I'm not so sure. But whatever.)
(I was going to produce a cave painting to illustrate this next bit...but just realized that my fresh Lunix install doesn't have any graphics manipulation program installed, and I don't feel like messing with it right now...so I'm just going to wing it verbally...)
An AWG _is_ an air conditioner. It is EXACTLY the same technology. The only difference, is the air flow pattern.
With an a/c unit, the air from the inside is drawn over cold coils and dumped back into the inside. This does cause moisture in the air to consdense, which is why all a/c units have a way to dump the collected water.
Heat, which is removed from the inside air and relocated into freon is then moved to the outside hot coils, where outside (ambient) air is sucked in and moved over the hot coils to shed the heat to the outside.
So with an a/c you have TWO separate and distinct air flows - both recirculating - one on the inside and one on the outside. It's not an efficient water gathering device, because each time the inside air is cooled, a bit of moisture is extracted, and the next time there is less water to extract.
Now take that exact same machinery, and change the air flow pattern to make an AWG...
Air is drawn in from outside (ambient) and run across the cold coils. As the heat is removed from the air, moisure is condensed. The heat is moved from the air into the freon which moves the heat to hot coils.
Then, take that COOLED AND DRYED air and flow it straight though the machine and flow it ACROSS THE HOT COILS. This picks up the previously removed heat, and moves it from the freon back to the cold air, which is dumped back outside to the ambient.
So with an AWG, you have ONE air flow - outside air across the cold coils, then across the hot coils, and back to the outside.
In this way, the incoming air always contains a "full charge" of moisture, so the machine produces a LOT more water than an a/c unit. Also, because heat is extracted from the air, but that cold air is then used to extract the heat from the freon, it is much more efficient than an a/c, which only has ambient (which will obviously be already rather hot) air to blow across the hot coils to cool them - and also has to move TWICE AS MUCH AIR.
So it really doesn't matter that the AWG uses more power than the RO; neither one runs continuously. And a small AWG to just keep the system topped off is not going to use more power than a small a/c unit. In fact, it uses less because it's more efficent at removing heat from the freon and only has to move half as much air.
Now consider this: The Midnite Solar Classic solar charge controller can also be used for wind systems. Solar does not need a "dump load", since it can simply be switched off when the batteries are full, unlike a wind generator which can overspeed if there is no load on it.
So the Midnite Classic has a connection to control a relay to activate a dump load. When the batteries are full, it trips the relay and turns on the dump load.
That same functionality can be used another way; load shifting. For instance it could be used to control a relay which turns the power to the AWG and the filter/pump on and off. That way, the recycling and water making functions only have power after the battery bank has been topped off. Driving the vehicle [EDIT: Sorry...forgot for a minute; it's The Terraliner! - should say, "Running the generators"] would of course also bring up the battery voltage, and automatically enable the recycling and water making.
Another safe assumption is that some thought will be given to proper power/battery/load management.
And then...there's that pesky bathtub.
I would say...take fresh water and fill the tub, and empty the tub into the grey tank for processing back into the fresh tank. This would require a bit of juggling of the fresh/grey tank sizes and fill levels to insure there was always enough room in the tanks to move the water around, and also juggling the automatic level sensing and automatic water making and recycling, but is not that big a deal really.
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